RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid



Message


ShieldWolf -> RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. (7/25/2008 10:56:56 AM)

I will not hijack the Obama thread to start a man-made global warming argument and unless you are an atmospheric science of meteorologist, then I really am not all that interested in what you say as long as I detect another motive outside of a scientific one. As a meteorologist myself, I can tell you there is no consensus whatsever on man made global warming, in fact with all the other factors involved in climate change it is damn near impossible to prove. But as for the models they have used to make the temperature differences, now that is laughable. These same models are generally considered very flawed by forecasters after about a 10 day period. Why would I trust the same model for a temperature rise forecast in 20-50 or more years? It really is a garbage in/garbage out scenario. Then we get to the whole issue of man-made vs. natural climate change and the former starts to look more like creationism than pure science. Of course if you decide to have faith in this anyway, that is a personal issue and not one you would likely be dissuaded from no matter what the evidence.

As for the scaring people for political points, that is the essence of most politics and politicians since around the Bronze Age most likely. The idea of elected officials actually having to be elected by a multitude made it a necessary part of the game.




cloudboy -> RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. (7/25/2008 11:08:22 AM)


IPCC Fourth Assessment Report: Climate Change 2007

The Fourth Assessment Report (AR4) was completed in early 2007[11]. Like previous assessment reports, it consists of four reports, three of them from its working groups.

Working Group I dealt with the "Physical Science Basis of Climate Change." The Working Group I Summary for Policymakers (SPM) was published on 2 February 2007[12] and revised on 5 February 2007[13]. There was also a 2 February 2007 press release[14]. The full WGI report[15] was published in March. The key conclusions of the SPM were that[16]:

* Warming of the climate system is unequivocal.
* Most of the observed increase in globally averaged temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely due to the observed increase in anthropogenic (human) greenhouse gas concentrations.
* Anthropogenic warming and sea level rise would continue for centuries due to the timescales associated with climate processes and feedbacks, even if greenhouse gas concentrations were to be stabilized, although the likely amount of temperature and sea level rise varies greatly depending on the fossil intensity of human activity during the next century (pages 13 and 18)[13].
* The probability that this is caused by natural climatic processes alone is less than 5%.
* World temperatures could rise by between 1.1 and 6.4 °C (2.0 and 11.5 °F) during the 21st century (table 3) and that:
o Sea levels will probably rise by 18 to 59 cm (7.08 to 23.22 in) [table 3].
o There is a confidence level >90% that there will be more frequent warm spells, heat waves and heavy rainfall.
o There is a confidence level >66% that there will be an increase in droughts, tropical cyclones and extreme high tides.
* Both past and future anthropogenic carbon dioxide emissions will continue to contribute to warming and sea level rise for more than a millennium.
* Global atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide, methane, and nitrous oxide have increased markedly as a result of human activities since 1750 and now far exceed pre-industrial values over the past 650,000 years

In IPCC statements "most" means greater than 50%, "likely" means at least a 66% likelihood, and "very likely" means at least a 90% likelihood.

An outline of chapters in the WGI report (as of November 3, 2005)[17] and a list of the report's authors (as of March 10, 2005)[18] were made available before publication of the SPM.

The Summary for Policymakers for the Working Group II [1] report was released on April 6, 2007[19]. The Summary for Policymakers for the Working Group III report [20] was released on May 4, 2007. The AR4 Synthesis Report (SYR) was released on November 17, 2007.





ShieldWolf -> RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. (7/25/2008 11:36:01 AM)

This very report is one of the things that has caused a backlash in the scientific community against such bold claims with so little data not the least of which led to a strong distrust of the UN in its ability to take simple evidence and expound on it. These numbers are garbage for science purposes because I guarantee you they were politcally motivated not scientifically attained. The UN had no real interest in doing that and there were zero controls to insure it. They needed the numbers to say this. Google enough and you will see detailed answers to debunking how all of these "hard facts" are anything but. They fail to take into account the factors necessary to actually account for all possible sources of climate change. They also fail to explain previous periods of warming in history, namely the middle ages when Europe was much warmer than it was by the time of the Renaissance and the Little Ice Age. If you want my honest opinion bottomline, start looking into the sunspot data. They have a much greater effect than anthropogenic greenhouse gases on long term climate change. Of course another strong possibility is that if the source of recent warming in the last 50 years is anthropogenic driven, then likely the trend is over and the earth will show signs of cooling. Also, take into effect radiation scatter from various earthbound sources and the record of the last fifty years isn't even consistence. A volcano in the Phillipines in 1991 cancelled out the entire effect of humans and natural processes for nearly a two year period. The sea rise predictions here are heavily flawed and also will not have the effect that some would have you believe. That is obvious simply from the trend that the model data was not consistent and the controls were not too impressive regarding the data they used so the results were pretty skewed, which is what the UN wanted from the report anyway.

Now that I have completely failed to prevent a hijacking of the thread. Good luck to all the presidential candidates and try not to take yourselves too damn seriously. It looks like some Uberdominant on crystal meth sometimes. Almost like they wish to become the Dominant with our country being the good, adoring submissive.




cloudboy -> RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. (7/25/2008 2:24:33 PM)


Its the fourth assessment. Its been well vetted. Opposition to its findings sounds like crackpot logic to me.




ShieldWolf -> RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. (7/25/2008 2:41:52 PM)

Well vetted? Hardly. See above objections for a taste of what is really going on.

If that makes me a crackpot in your mind we'll just have to leave it at that. Of course, you could take the high road and actually try to discover that there is plenty of objection to this in the scientific community. Academia and politicians are pushing this down our throat. I'll think for myself thank you.

In truth I can't understand why someone wouldn't. It would be a little like a Dom reading a couple of Gor novels and trying to base his whole life around them.




Thadius -> RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. (7/25/2008 5:00:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


Its the fourth assessment. Its been well vetted. Opposition to its findings sounds like crackpot logic to me.


Well in terms of vetting... check out this review of the report http://carboncreditsau.wordpress.com/2008/07/16/climate-sensitivity-reconsidered/

Some excerpts...

quote:


Such solecisms throughout the IPCC’s assessment reports (including the insertion, after the scientists had completed their final draft, of a table in which four decimal points had been right-shifted so as to multiply tenfold the observed contribution of ice-sheets and glaciers to sea-level rise), combined with a heavy reliance upon computer models unskilled even in short-term projection, with initial values of key variables unmeasurable and unknown, with advancement of multiple, untestable, non-Popper-falsifiable theories, with a quantitative assignment of unduly high statistical confidence levels to non-quantitative statements that are ineluctably subject to very large uncertainties, and, above all, with the now-prolonged failure of TS to rise as predicted (Figures 1, 2), raise questions about the reliability and hence policy-relevance of the IPCC’s central projections.
Dr. RajendraPachauri, chairman of the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), has recently said that the IPCC’s evaluation of climate sensitivity must now be revisited. This paper is a respectful contribution to that re-examination.


quote:

The IPCC’s methodology relies unduly – indeed, almost exclusively – upon numerical analysis, even where the outputs of the models upon which it so heavily relies are manifestly and significantly at variance with theory or observation or both.


quote:

The IPCC overstates temperature feedbacks to such an extent that the sum of the high-end values that it has now, for the first time, quantified would cross the instability threshold in the Bode feedback equation and induce a runaway greenhouse effect that has not occurred even in geological times despite CO2 concentrations almost 20 times today’s, and temperatures up to 7 ºC higher than today’s.


quote:

Conclusion
Even if temperature had risen above natural variability, the recent solar Grand Maximum may have been chiefly responsible. Even if the sun were not chiefly to blame for the past half-century’s warming, the IPCC has not demonstrated that, since CO2 occupies only one-ten-thousandth part more of the atmosphere that it did in 1750, it has contributed more than a small fraction of the warming. Even if carbon dioxide were chiefly responsible for the warming that ceased in 1998 and may not resume until 2015, the distinctive, projected fingerprint of anthropogenic “greenhouse-gas” warming is entirely absent from the observed record. Even if the fingerprint were present, computer models are long proven to be inherently incapable of providing projections of the future state of the climate that are sound enough for policymaking. Even if per impossibilethe models could ever become reliable, the present paper demonstrates that it is not at all likely that the world will warm as much as the IPCC imagines. Even if the world were to warm that much, the overwhelming majority of the scientific, peer-reviewed literature does not predict that catastrophe would ensue. Even if catastrophe might ensue, even the most drastic proposals to mitigate future climate change by reducing emissions of carbon dioxide would make very little difference to the climate. Even if mitigation were likely to be effective, it would do more harm than good: already millions face starvation as the dash for biofuels takes agricultural land out of essential food production: a warning that taking precautions, “just in case”, can do untold harm unless there is a sound, scientific basis for them. Finally, even if mitigation might do more good than harm, adaptation as (and if) necessary would be far more cost-effective and less likely to be harmful.

In short, we must get the science right, or we shall get the policy wrong. If the concluding equation in this analysis (Eqn. 30) is correct, the IPCC’s estimates of climate sensitivity must have been very much exaggerated. There may, therefore, be a good reason why, contrary to the projections of the models on which the IPCC relies, temperatures have not risen for a decade and have been falling since the phase-transition in global temperature trends that occurred in late 2001. Perhaps real-world climate sensitivity is very much below the IPCC’s estimates. Perhaps, therefore, there is no “climate crisis” at all. At present, then, in policy terms there is no case for doing anything. The correct policy approach to a non-problem is to have the courage to do nothing.


This is but one of many folks that are pointing out the logical falacies in the models used for the IPCC's conclussions.  To blindly accept the conclussions and forecasts by the IPCC seems to me to be illogical, for one thing many of the noted contributors were just 3 decades ago screaming about a new ice age.  This is not to say that I am against lowering pollution from our various activities, I am just not convinced that global warming is a man made phenom.





philosophy -> RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. (7/25/2008 5:17:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

I am just not convinced that global warming is a man made phenom.




.....not to be pedantic Thadius, but you're clearly a man who prizes precision. A trait i sincerely admire. The real debate isnt about whether global warming is a man-made phenomenon. It's all about whether or not the contribution to it by human activities is significent or not. No-one serious is claiming that without humans the average global temperature wouldn't rise. What some are claiming is that the human contribution is significent, dangerous and reversible by a change in human activity. Some claim the opposite.
The reason this is important is that, in order to have a serious debate on this issue, we have to have our terms of reference correctly defined.




cloudboy -> RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. (7/25/2008 5:36:31 PM)

I am a laymen, not an expert. That means if I can choose between the IPCC and you, you can't win. In addition to the IPCC (which has done four assessments) I checked two top scientific journals: NATURE and SCIENCE, and they also line up behind the IPCC.

I don't really see why these scientists would be colluding to defraud anyone.

Its not that I believe the IPCC blindly, its that I find it a very credible authority on the subject matter.

Even the the US Supreme Court has found carbon emissions to be a "pollutant" that the EPA can regulate.







ShieldWolf -> RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. (7/25/2008 6:45:17 PM)

It isn't me. Its reliable, scientific types like me but much closer to the fray in Academia. I'm a smart guy and work in an atmospheric science related field, but even I had to do the research before I could become skeptical. Others more prominent on the food chain did so as well and they are higher profile than I'll ever be. The political world is already lock step behind the fear mongering, hey its the nature of the game. They want everyone to believe this is a slam dunk. With this latest assessment they went too far and now some PHD Meteorology types are calling foul. They are saying wait a minute this doesn't add up. That's all.

Scientists have no political agenda for the most part. They research and study and then politicians twist their findings to say what they just don't and never were intended to be quoted. There are those that are a part of this that have even acknowledged their work is being abused or unintentionally used for political gain.




kittinSol -> RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. (7/25/2008 6:52:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShieldWolf

Scientists have no political agenda for the most part. They research and study and then politicians twist their findings to say what they just don't and never were intended to be quoted.



ROFL! You've never heard of science policy?




ShieldWolf -> RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. (7/25/2008 7:01:25 PM)

philosophy,

Yes ultimately the issue is around what you have stated. How can he lay person get through all the garbage an personal attacks to get to the heart of a real issue? Mostly they would be shocked to see such a reasoned, middle of the road, sort of the thing only science geeks would be all that interested in. Its much more fun for some to take it all totally out of context and make it something it is not and never was.

Same thing has happened around WMD's in Iraq and other such issues.




Irishknight -> RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. (7/26/2008 5:50:17 AM)

The only major complaint I heard about the Obama speech was the percieved attempt to ilink himself to JFK through similar phrases.  Before anyone jumps down my throat, notice the wotd "percieved."  It is a word I added to what the newscaster's commented on while I was watching. They noted what they called an attempt to make people think he is the second coming of JFK.




SailCapt -> RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. (7/26/2008 6:26:04 AM)

Ok, so I'm in... Damn, after reading all this I just couldn't keep myself out.

1) With regard to Global Warming: It's real, it's clear, and yes the question isn't does it exists but is the human activity of the last century the primary cause and if so can we do anything to reverse it. Clearly we've put a lot of carbon back into the atmosphere. Anyone want to guess how many gallons of oil were burned in the last 100 years. All that carbon was nicely sequestered in the earth now it's out. If you feel you are skeptical about this assertion, I suggest you go to:

http://skepticalscience.com/

A web site that debunks global climate change skepticism.


2) With regard to Obama and his stops at the military bases in Germany:

quote:

The Pentagon, in a statement, cited longstanding Defense Department policy that prohibits military personnel or facilities from association with partisan political campaigns and elections.

Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman took issue with Gration's statement, saying that the Defense Department did not object to Obama visiting in his role as an Illinois senator but it did not want campaign staff or the media present.


This was a political trip. The Obama campaign assisted and worked with the press to ensure that they were on board and present. It was clearly a campaign trip and so it would have been inappropriate for Candidate Obama to visit these bases. McCain's people know this because on his "Service to America" tour he had the same problem

quote:

McCain campaign officials said Thursday they intentionally did not campaign on military property.
"We follow the rules," said senior McCain adviser Steve Schmidt.



Finally, with regard to the speech in Berlin, of course the point of the speech was to make Obama look Presidential. To give the American people a sense that this man can stand toe to toe with foreign leaders and represent America in a way that we can be proud of. This trip was more about presenting Obama in a presidential light for consumption in the US then it was to make him look good in the eyes of Europeans. Yes, of course it had that second aspect to it as well, but it's primary effect was to burnish his image in the USofA. I think its pretty clear it did just that.

SC

PS A survey of all peer reviewed abstracts on the subject "global climate change" published between 1993 and 2003 show that not a single paper rejected the consensus position that global warming is man caused. 75% of the papers agreed with the consensus position while 25% made no comment either way (eg - focused on methods or paleoclimate analysis). So ShieldWolf your academic supporters better get busy publishing..




Owner59 -> RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. (7/26/2008 6:27:17 AM)

It`s not warm where he is,.....thus,it`s not real....





OrionTheWolf -> RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. (7/26/2008 7:52:45 AM)

Greetings Thadius,

The speech itself was predictable, and parts of it borrowed from other speeches he has given. The political move was pretty good. It shows that Obama can be a stateman to the World, which was an area he was showing a little weak in. It also shows that he can work to correct the image the US has in Europe. This is not surprising though, as many of his ideas seem very European. Do not get me wrong, I do not support him, nor do I support McCain. I am voting third party this year to try and gain more support for something other than a two party system that is an instrument that harms this country.

Live well,
Orion

P.S. Is not surprising that some follow their typical behavior of not staying on topic and beating their cheerleading drums.




NorthernGent -> RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. (7/26/2008 8:03:57 AM)

General reply:

For all those talking of the bloke's visit to Europe and his European style ideas........you're a million miles wide of the mark. He has been to Germany - Berlin to be precise, which is a city with a certain history that lends itself toward that sort of reception.

In the interests of balance, he is now in England and the only member of the public who turned out to greet him was an old fella short of a few bob trying to sell Obama his dog. Most people here haven't the first clue he's here - I only know because I picked up the paper this morning.

Lads and lasses - he ain't been to "Europe", he's been to Germany. I can provide you with some inside knowledge - this part of Europe has more pressing concerns than an audience with a bloke from thousands of miles away.

Oh, European ideas? The equivalent would be claiming all Americans, from Canada to Brazil, share a similar style.

'Hope all of this clears up one or two pertinent points.

As you were.




Sanity -> RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. (7/26/2008 8:24:10 AM)


I read elsewhere that because of their history, many Germans are averse to such charismatic politicians as Obama, with his flowery speeches...

quote:

For all those talking of the bloke's visit to Europe and his European style ideas........you're a million miles wide of the mark. He has been to Germany - Berlin to be precise, which is a city with a certain history that lends itself toward that sort of reception.




kittinSol -> RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. (7/26/2008 8:25:15 AM)

Jesus... [8|] .




philosophy -> RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. (7/26/2008 8:49:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShieldWolf

How can the lay person get through all the garbage and personal attacks to get to the heart of a real issue?


....because the debate has been skewed for political gain on both sides, the only strategy is for scientists to become political. However, as we're in the business of defining terms we now have to define political. By political i mean taking an interest in public policy, how it is decided on and what paradigms influence its implementation. By staying above the fray, all scientists have done is cede the ground to those with agendas. Political parties may have a tenuous relationship with the truth, this does not mean that indiciduals who engage in politics are all liars.
The politics of climate change are not left or right wing, no matter how hard the extremists try to make it so.




Sanity -> RE: Ich bin ein beginner...Obama in Berlin. (7/26/2008 9:36:57 AM)


Yes?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Jesus... [8|] .







Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.03125