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louisfceline -> RE: Another church shooting (8/4/2008 5:11:01 PM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:
ORIGINAL: Archer
DomKen no you're assuming they will go against their training as well as their instinct and the law and go out and hunt the guy down. 3 assumptions in a chain all going against training and instinct.
If training fails then what happens
1. Instinct takes over and the guy hides behind a desk like eveyone else and doesn't take any action until fight vs flight takes over and forces his hand.
My assumptions are
1. The guy will take cover, as instinct and experience tells me. (ever seen the involentary duck when a gunshot rings out?)
2. a little time will pass and the guy will remember he has his pistol on him today. (because it's not the first thing that comes to the basicly trained mind belive it or not)
3. at best the guy will wait as I said before until there is a direct threat because he has a healthy fear. ( it takes alot of courage or insanity to go hunt down an armed man and not many will think it's even a good idea, let alone something they really want to do)
So my assumptions are based on the person reacting in a natural way and over comming the fear with training.
The assumption that a CCP will go out and hunt the guy down (thus needing the training at a high level mentioned before) actually is way out there on the fringe. It goes against fight or flight basics, it goes against training it goes again everything in the normal human mind. Unless and until a CCP has actually seen the "bad guy" the likelyhood they will plan and execute a botched up hollywood search and destroy mission is relatively unheard of.
Accidental discharge during hunting comes not from John Wayne syndrom but rather complacency due to lack of percieved threat/ danger (Oh I can do this with the gun loaded nothing will happen) not the same catagory of stress induced fight or flight logic and training. The classes build on the actual instincts rather than ignoring them.
No. You're assuming the CCP holder is not present when the mass murder starts but instead hears gunfire from a nearby source. While a reasonable possibility most mass murders begin in crowded areas. My fear is that the CCP holder will, against common sense, not try and get away from the killer but will instead attempt to shoot the killer and inevitably kill one or more innocent people in the process. Anyone who claims that they can safely hit a single person target amongst a paniced crowd is a liar. If multiple CCP holders were in the area and more than one opened fire then the scenario gets even more complicated and likely gets even more people dead.
As to your wait and shoot scenario, the armed extremely nervous CCP holder is a danger to LEO and emergency personnel trying to respond to the event. A LEO is not going to verbally announce himself before entering a room during a sweep looking for the killer or trapped civilians. It could alert the killer and place the LEO in extreme danger. So when the classroom door is quietly opened and an officer, likely SWAT in paramilitary garb not in an automatically recognized police uniform, comes into the classroom the CCP holder opens fire getting either himself or the LEO injured or killed. I can also see a possibility of the CCP holder being misidentified as the killer, for instance snipers would likely be positioned around the structure with the intention of shooting the killer if he is visible. The CCP holder waiting in a room with weapon drawn, possibly walking around talking to whoever else is present, could easily be mistaken for a hostile and get a rifle bullet in the head.
The scenario where the killer comes upon the CCP holder waiting in ambush who ends the situation decisively is an attractive idea but is not the only possibility and realistically seems rather unlikely compared to other possible outcomes.
All of these defenses lead us to the same place, that we should put our heads between our knees, wait for a cop, and hope for the best. But call for a pizza and call for a cop and see who arrives first. Cops are like accountants, they show up after the fact and tell you what happened or to count the bodies. They are bean counters. I'd be willing to risk the SWAT teams, the snipers, and the possibility of somone getting injured (since people are SURELY going to be injured), in order to stop a lunatic on a rampage. The minute you have the population defenseless you are at the mercy of the lawless. We've become a nation of ninnies and cowards. And those who wish to do us harm are aware of this. This is the state of thinking that left plane loads of people paralized with fear on 911. We sat there and waited for someone to establish authority. And the ones who did were terrorists.
Years ago if a guy raped a child, commited a terrible crime, or took aim at a community, that community would handle matters in their own way. In those days it would be better to be arrested than to deal with the community. My father and my grandfather were part of the generation that handled matters in their own way. They were part of an empowered community and when people stepped out of line, there was someone there to remind them of it. America has become gutless.
We come up with excuses of why we shouldn't attempt to fight back. We come up with all of the possible BAD outcomes and let the fear of those outcomes stop us from doing anything. But we never think of the possibilites either. We never stop to consider that just maybe ONE person who is armed may be standing 2 feet away from the guy who draws a weapon in a public place. And maybe that one person saves a lot of people. I own guns myself and I'll tell you that I would be VERY hesitant to draw my gun in a shopping mall until I was sure that a massacre was taking place. And I would NOT attempt to get into the line of fire if I were already safely away from it. But should it be happening in front of me, I would want the chance to fight back. A gun does not provide any guarantees. But it gives you a chance. And that may be all you can ask for at a moment like that.
We're so worried that someone who is untrained may be in possession of a gun. Guess what? Its already a problem. But for the most part, they are criminals. And yes, they are untrained, dangerous, and wish to do you harm. By not taking measures to protect ourselves, we put our trust in those who deserve it the least. This OUR country. These are OUR communities. These are OUR neighbors. Are they not worth defending? Have we become so gutless and so indifferent that we are content to have our communities taken over by whatever force decides to reside there?
If all of this sounds crazy I ask that you just stop and think about it. Because this is what it was like a mere 30 or 40 years ago. So I ask, what happened since then? The most obvious is that we've become a society who prides itself on divergent points of view, refuses to judge anyone, and has worked night and day to eliminate standards. And all of the freedom we thought we were getting for ourselves have led us to this place. We don't act like the army of ants that works for the good of its own colony. We act like maggots on a rotting carcass. Its time for those of us who want good communities and safety for oursleves to stop fighting each other and start fighting those who have taken advantage of our laws, our loopholes, and, most importantly, our disagreements with each other. Unless we don't stop looking at each other as enemies, the true enemy will never be identified.
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