RE: Another church shooting (Full Version)

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DarkSteven -> RE: Another church shooting (7/29/2008 5:19:57 AM)

I'm not sure what gun control could have done.  The guy was a complete mental case, filled with hatred.  I suspect he would have found some way to go on a killing spree with or without guns.

Bad employment history, penchant for blaming everyone else (minorities, gays, liberals) for his own problems... the thing that bothers me is that as the economy goes through its inevtitable downturn, these wackos will be springing up everywhere.




boytoy4female -> RE: Another church shooting (7/29/2008 5:30:56 AM)

This event brings to the surface, a personal struggle that I am facing. I have a concealed weapons permit, but I really do not carry except on rare occasions. Now I find myself thinking I should carry more often, even to church. Say I was sitting in the last pew, saw the events unfold and could have saved a life by acting as I am authorized. How would I feel, knowing I could have prevented some loss had I been  carrying a concealed weapon? I don't know what the answer is. Im not a gun fanatic, but I am well trained in their handling. Am I a fanatic if I carry everywhere? Am I not up holding my obligation, by not being prepared?




slvemike4u -> RE: Another church shooting (7/29/2008 5:32:34 AM)

Well jeez Al,off the top of my head it occurs to me that in the case of a homicide, forensic scientist's might attempt to match the "ballistics"of weapon to fatal bullit,I seem to have heard such things are possible.The link you provided did not work for me...so I am curious where that would have taken me,perhaps to evidence that fornensic science is in fact a government conspiricy....




bipolarber -> RE: Another church shooting (7/29/2008 5:33:13 AM)

He blames gays, liberals and minorities? Five will get you ten he has at least one radio station in his car set to Rush Limbaugh... check his bookshelves... any copies of the Turner Diaries there?




MmeGigs -> RE: Another church shooting (7/29/2008 5:41:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

quote:

ORIGINAL: MmeGigs

We're cutting the legs out from under the people we're counting on to keep us safe.  It's sick and sad.

Who are these people you are counting on to keep you safe? 


Law enforcement officers.  That's what we pay them for.





Archer -> RE: Another church shooting (7/29/2008 5:54:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: housesub4you

This is already being done, and it has been done for a long long time. 

Every firearm produced in this country is test fired and the shell is sent along with the serial number to the FBI for their database.

The theory is that they will be able to use this record to track ownership of a gun used in a felony.  That's the theory anyway



Cite Source, because the only place I know that has a ballistic fingerprint law is Maryland who requires it on sales within it's borders. (fired bullet and case required to be submitted by the gun shop owners)








housesub4you -> RE: Another church shooting (7/29/2008 5:58:12 AM)

It's done at the manufacturing level, I'll have to dig through the Federal Statuates to find it. 

There has even been a story on Discovery channel about it, when they looked at gun manufacturing in the US   Not that everything on the Discovery Channel is true




housesub4you -> RE: Another church shooting (7/29/2008 6:37:11 AM)

It was during the Clinton years, and I was wrong it is not a 'law"

"One major gun manufacturer, Glock, is already working with the government to develop "fingerprints" of the bullets and shell casings for every 9mm handgun test fired in its manufacturing process, Reed said"

This is from CNN, there are other stories covering every "major" gun manufacturer in the country




MmeGigs -> RE: Another church shooting (7/29/2008 6:39:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Perhaps what is sick and sad is the attempt to cloak a political agenda as a "public health issue":


The CDC studies cancer, HIV/AIDS, diabetes and other diseases, and they also study lead and asbestos, food safety, air and water pollution, seatbelts and airbags, playground equipment, fireworks, drunk driving, workplace environments, child abuse, injuries from falls and fires, youth violence, natural and man-made disasters, nail guns, paint guns, caulk guns...  pretty much anything that kills or injures a number of us.  Why wouldn't they study firearms? 




DomKen -> RE: Another church shooting (7/29/2008 7:30:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: boytoy4female

This event brings to the surface, a personal struggle that I am facing. I have a concealed weapons permit, but I really do not carry except on rare occasions. Now I find myself thinking I should carry more often, even to church. Say I was sitting in the last pew, saw the events unfold and could have saved a life by acting as I am authorized. How would I feel, knowing I could have prevented some loss had I been  carrying a concealed weapon? I don't know what the answer is. Im not a gun fanatic, but I am well trained in their handling. Am I a fanatic if I carry everywhere? Am I not up holding my obligation, by not being prepared?

Go to your local UU church and discuss the matter with them. I think their opinion on the matter is not what you think it will be.




slaveboyforyou -> RE: Another church shooting (7/29/2008 7:53:02 AM)

quote:

This event brings to the surface, a personal struggle that I am facing. I have a concealed weapons permit, but I really do not carry except on rare occasions. Now I find myself thinking I should carry more often, even to church. Say I was sitting in the last pew, saw the events unfold and could have saved a life by acting as I am authorized. How would I feel, knowing I could have prevented some loss had I been  carrying a concealed weapon? I don't know what the answer is. Im not a gun fanatic, but I am well trained in their handling. Am I a fanatic if I carry everywhere? Am I not up holding my obligation, by not being prepared?


From Luke, chapter 22, verse 36:

"But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one."




stef -> RE: Another church shooting (7/29/2008 7:58:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MmeGigs

Law enforcement officers.  That's what we pay them for.

Really?  There have been a couple of legal decisions that show that the police are not bound by any such duty to protect.  The only time such a duty exists is when one is in custody.

~stef




slaveboyforyou -> RE: Another church shooting (7/29/2008 8:01:15 AM)

quote:

Really?  There have been a couple of legal decisions that show that the police are not bound by any such duty to protect.  The only time such a duty exists is when one is in custody.

~stef


Yep.  When someone breaks into your home, by all means call the police.  But if you aren't prepared to protect yourself, all the cops will do is take a photograph of your corpse. 




MmeGigs -> RE: Another church shooting (7/29/2008 9:22:18 AM)

quote:

 ORIGINAL: Archer
Since ther are folks who incite to riot do we limit speach?


Yep, we do.  I can stand on the courthouse steps and rant about my property taxes til I turn blue and it's okay, but I'm going to jail if I call for folks to storm the assessor's office.  There are limits on all of our rights.  Gun ownership isn't going to be an exception.  Very few people are ever going to be completely satisfied with where the lines are drawn, and a lot of folks will express their opinion about it.  There's nothing about that that's new or unique to guns.




Archer -> RE: Another church shooting (7/29/2008 11:07:08 AM)


You're not calling for the removal of John Q's vocal cords because some day he might incite a riot.
But you do seem to be calling for John Q's guns to be removed because someday he might shoot someone or himself.

Gun control logic has the very distinct flavor of prior restraint.











philosophy -> RE: Another church shooting (7/29/2008 11:21:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice


quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

(the shooter) targeted the congregation out of hatred for its support of liberal social policies.


(my added brackets)

...forget the debate around gun control The above quoted line is the important issue. There's been talk on these boards from some ( a vocal minority) that this sort of extremism is only a product of Islamic thought. The lesson to take away here is that extremism in all religions is the problem, not just one religion.


Well said, Philo. I don't know how religious the guy was, so it may have been political rather than religious extremism.


.....political extremism.....religious extremism........there comes a point where the two are indistinguishable. The current crop of Islamic extremists clearly have blurred the line between political and religious extremism. By the same sort of logic, someone who attacks a religious organisation for a political aganda has also blurred that line.
It's all about using violence to further ones own beliefs, be they religious or political beliefs.




MrrPete -> RE: Another church shooting (7/29/2008 11:37:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Would the removal of all legally owned firearms from the world, put an end to gun violence?



Of course not. However... Would making it more difficult to obtain a gun help reduce the level of gun violence? Don't diss it till you've tried it. What's YOUR solution, Thadius?


A. Bad things happen to good people. Being a good person or a church-going do-gooder doesn't protect you from evil. Muslims pray five times a day and it won't stop the terrorist from blowing them up.

We can't stop evil from happening no matter how hard you try.

for an example read the Book of Job and pay close attention to the dialog between God and satan.

B.How much gun violence is there in NYC? The Sullivan law isn't working very well. When you ban guns from the law abiding; only the law-breakers will have guns. No one is safe.




kittinSol -> RE: Another church shooting (7/29/2008 11:45:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrrPete

for an example read the Book of Job and pay close attention to the dialog between God and satan.



You mean the bit where the Eternal has a dialogue in his own head with the two sides of his split personality?




FirmhandKY -> RE: Another church shooting (7/29/2008 1:28:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

The World Health Organization also tracks violence prevention.
 
"As of January 2007 three out of six WHO regional committees (Africa, the Americas and Europe) have adopted violence prevention resolutions; there are over 100 officially appointed health ministry focal persons for the prevention of violence; over 50 countries have had national launches of the World report on violence and health, and over 25 countries have developed reports and/or plans of action on violence and health. At the programme level, tens of thousands of people in scores of countries have been touched by violence prevention programmes and victim services established in response to the Global Campaign for Violence Prevention. Advocacy, normative guidance and the planting of programme seeds in many countries must now give way to scaled-up country-level implementation accompanied by a concerted effort to measure effectiveness using the outcomes that really matter - such as rates for violence-related deaths, non-fatal injuries and other violence-related health conditions."
 
http://www.who.int/violence_injury_prevention/violence/global_campaign/en/
 
 
The World Health Organization also researches and keeps statistics on suicide as a public health issue.

"About 877,000 people die by suicide every year."

http://www.who.int/mental_health/en/

 
 
Chapter 7, Self-directed violence
 
Method chosen
A major factor determining whether suicidal
behaviour will be fatal or not is the method chosen.
In the United States, guns are used in approximately
two-thirds of all suicides (105). In other parts of
the world, hanging is more common, followed by
the use of a gun, jumping from a height and
drowning. In China, intoxication by pesticides is
the most common method (106, 107).
 
In the past two decades, in some countries such
as Australia, there has been a remarkable increase in
hanging as a means of suicide, especially among
younger people, accompanied by a corresponding
decrease in the use of firearms (123124).  In general,
elderly people tend to adopt methods involving less
physical strength, such as drowning or jumping
from heights; this has been recorded particularly in
Hong Kong SAR, China, and Singapore (149).
 
Nearly everywhere, women tend to adopt ‘‘softer’’
methods – for example, overdosing with medicines
– both in fatal and in non-fatal suicide attempts
 
(189). A notable exception to this is the practice of
self-immolation in India."



http://www.who.int/violence_injury_prevention/violence/global_campaign/en/chap7.pdf

(page 14 out of 30)


Thanks.

Surprised at your support, but thank you anyway.

Firm




Vendaval -> RE: Another church shooting (7/29/2008 2:36:02 PM)

Well stated, MmeGigs.  Causes of death are definately part of the public health dialogue.


quote:

ORIGINAL: MmeGigs

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Perhaps what is sick and sad is the attempt to cloak a political agenda as a "public health issue":


The CDC studies cancer, HIV/AIDS, diabetes and other diseases, and they also study lead and asbestos, food safety, air and water pollution, seatbelts and airbags, playground equipment, fireworks, drunk driving, workplace environments, child abuse, injuries from falls and fires, youth violence, natural and man-made disasters, nail guns, paint guns, caulk guns...  pretty much anything that kills or injures a number of us.  Why wouldn't they study firearms? 




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