RE: How would you punish a sub who disobeyed (Full Version)

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rc4otkVA -> RE: How would you punish a sub who disobeyed (8/1/2008 3:14:37 AM)

I don't tolerate disobedience from subs. I would beat them and humiliate them into doing anything I wanted.



AMaster -> RE: How would you punish a sub who disobeyed (8/8/2008 11:44:35 AM)

It depends on the DOM and sub.  It depends on the kind of relationship.  It depends on the trangression.  It depends on what the sub enjoys, and what she thinks is punishment.  Sorry, there is no one answer to your question.



Maxwell67 -> RE: How would you punish a sub who disobeyed (8/8/2008 1:28:16 PM)

Right now there are two kinds of punishment in my house.  The good kind and the bad kind.  The good kind happens when she has made a mistake and either brings the problem to me, ot admits to it immediatedly with no fight or attempt to hide anything apparent... in other words an "honest mistake" which we can address properly together and deal with.  That earns the good kind of punishment (Usually OTK, but generally something involving her ass and a lot of pain).   If it is something that actually makes me angry, which is very rare, then she gets corner time first, while I calm down and decide how to approach the issue.  I would never strike her in anger. 

The bad kind of punishment would be rope suspension in taxing postures or something along those lines, where she is left "alone" (that is, a sensory deprivation induced feeling of aloneness that comes with gag, blindfold, ear plugs and such) perhaps with an extra 'irritant' added in for good measure.  I could not actually leave her alone in this sort of case, but the lack of interaction coupled with the knowledge she has been bad ought to do the trick. Truth be told, I have never had to actually use this type of  punishment on her because she has never been wilfully bad nor tried to hide anything from me...  Maybe the threat alone has been enough.  She knows this is my plan for such punishments.  But I prefer to think I have never had to do it because she simply never wants to dissapoint me.

In any case, it is my opinion that all punishments have to involve addressing the wrong done and then addressing the guilt that comes with it and alleviating both.  I am not one to let Mine sit around and wonder if she will ever be forgiven after I am done expressing my dissapointment.  That is a kind of torture I am not interested in.



LaTigresse -> RE: How would you punish a sub who disobeyed (8/8/2008 1:33:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TwoNYCDommes

quote:

ORIGINAL: michelle1227
How would you punish a sub who disobeyed you or told you no?


That would depend on the sub, the offense, the relationship, and other contextual factors.  A sub who frequently disobeyed or refused would not last long.


This sums up my thoughts perfectly.



emtffbdsm -> RE: How would you punish a sub who disobeyed (8/8/2008 2:14:52 PM)

First you must learn what your submissive does not like but is not a hard limit. Do not make a big deal of it just keep it in the back of your mind. I have found that for the most part spanking does not make a good punishment.

I tend to use larger toys for insertion play as part of the punishments.



compassionatedad -> RE: How would you punish a sub who disobeyed (8/8/2008 2:25:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TwoNYCDommes

quote:

ORIGINAL: michelle1227
How would you punish a sub who disobeyed you or told you no?


That would depend on the sub, the offense, the relationship, and other contextual factors.  A sub who frequently disobeyed or refused would not last long.


Exactly... If the infraction were severe enough, I could only resort to the most severe penalty available to a sub...  Show them the door and inform them that they are released of service.  Tim



NumberSix -> RE: How would you punish a sub who disobeyed (8/8/2008 2:49:21 PM)

I would chain them to a concrete floor, pick their nosehairs with a tweezers, and make them sing the 'Mighty Mouse' song, and no fuckin' peekin' neither...

If they peeked, the relationship could only go downhill from there.

6



Masterdarkone29 -> RE: How would you punish a sub who disobeyed (8/8/2008 6:09:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: michelle1227

How would you punish a sub who disobeyed you or told you no?

M





Cornor time nude after a good whipping with my belt.  Or hand written sentences.



Huntertn -> RE: How would you punish a sub who disobeyed (8/8/2008 6:50:58 PM)

In one case I took her off sex for two weeks..another I out and spanked...then there was the time I handed her a toothbrush and tildher to clean the corners...just anything I know she doen't like...after all.puishment is not just spanking



WizardOfDelphi -> RE: How would you punish a sub who disobeyed (8/9/2008 3:03:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam
Figure out why he said no. You need his intent and reasoning before you can decide, in my opinion. Then, choose something he doesn't like for him to do, based on the level of disobedience. If you have the policy of "my way or the highway", be prepared that it might be the highway.


Oh, Master Fire, you're so smart.  [:)]

Seriously, sometimes there is a darn good reason to say no.  Like maybe they realized it would trigger a landmine for them is a good example.  So one must determine the severity of the infraction before deciding what response is appropriate.

For minor infractions, I suggest treating them like you would a dog or cat.  Catch them doing it and immediately punishing them.  It doesn't have to be anything really harsh.  As an example I might rapidly grab them by the hair, bend them over and whack their ass very hard once or twice.  This has the effect of really startling them and getting their attention.  I thin follow up with a brief explanation of what they did to deserve it, assuming it wasn't obvious.  Like if I told a submissive to do something and they stuck their tongue out at me or made a rude comment, bam, I'd respond so fast they would never see it coming.  Works like a charm.

If it is determined that more punishment is warranted beyond the above then what you do totally depends on your submissive.  Basically punishment is something they do not enjoy.  But you don't want them to hate or resent you for it either.  Finding the right punishment that fits the submissive and situation is sort of an art.  It takes practice.  Having a cleaver and devious mind doesn't hurt either.  Be creative.




Hisgirl2playwith -> RE: How would you punish a sub who disobeyed (8/9/2008 4:08:13 PM)

i haven't been punished for anything yet either. There has only been one time Master told me He was angry with me. i had not told Him i hadn't been feeling good for a week until after it got so bad i went to the ER to get checked out. Although i got a stern lecture, just knowing i'd made Him angry is MORE than enough for me to NEVER willfully with hold something from Him again. The idea of being left alone for a day or three has also been quite effective at helping me learn things better.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mypain56

umm, believe or not i haven't been punished for anything yet, although the other day daddy got a little fussy with me for a second, he was using his belt on me, and i moved my hand over the spot where he really let me have it, and he told me i better never do that again. Another time, and this happened months and months ago before i realized that calling him by his first name was a major no, no. He said something very funny on the phone and i started laughing and called out his first name, well his reply was what did you just call me, and i said oops did i mess up and he said yep you did, and don't do it again. Another time, i forgot to turn my cell phone back on after leaving the Doctor's office and he couldn't get ahold of me for awhile. But when i realized what i had done and told him the truth, he just said, stuff like that happens and just check next time. But actually i haven't been punished yet thank GOD.... Because he only has one method of punishment, and that of silence for however long he chooses.
which that would rip out my heart and kill me probably. No communication what so ever... Wicked but quite affective....
Daddy's/babygirl
SRLN: 654-049-049



Nitefalls1000 -> RE: How would you punish a sub who disobeyed (8/10/2008 8:16:42 PM)

i have used all sorts of things...ICE is one of my favorates



Paulnz -> RE: How would you punish a sub who disobeyed (8/10/2008 9:46:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: michelle1227

How would you punish a sub who disobeyed you or told you no?

M




I will generally deprive her of something she likes, or set her a difficult assignment.




AnnaOfAramis -> RE: How would you punish a sub who disobeyed (8/11/2008 4:01:25 PM)

Well, I do hope it is alright for me to interject my 2 cents even though I am only a slave. It is not my intent to overstep my place or to question any of the methods so far suggested, but merely to turn this line of reasoning upside down as it were and look at it another way. Perhaps you need to ask not "what is the best punishment" but what is the "best method to change the behavior." I admit I am an unabashed fan of BF Skinner and probably what would be termed a behaviorist, so here goes.

First, I would say, explore why the disobedience is occurring. Is it attention seeking behavior (in which case giving punishment is giving attention, which rewards the behavior and actually makes it MORE likely to recur). Is there some issue.. fear, stress...? What is going on in your relationship dynamic? Is there a lack of trust, respect and why? Until you have a good grasp on what might be behind it, it is very hard to tackle.

Second, I would say rather than focusing on what you do NOT want, focus on the behavior you DO want. What behavior do you want to replace the bad behavior? Break this down into small enough steps that you KNOW your sub can easily handle and will succeed at and reward this behavior immediately (within 2 seconds of it occurring) repeat this process and gradually increase until you get them to where you want them to be. Always stop on a high note of success and don't be tempted to keep pushing until they are failing. You don't want them to learn how to fail you! What constitutes a reward- can be something as small as a "well done" from you, but you know your sub best and what would motivate them. Most subs just want to know you are pleased with them.

Lastly, studies that Skinner and others have done have shown that punishment has NO predictable effect on changing behavior. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. But positive reinforcement does predict a behavior increase. in whatever is being reinforced.

So, when do the sadist tops get to have at their sub I can hear you wondering by this point. Go ahead and have fun! But, in this context anyway, keep it just for your pleasure rather than as punishment.

This is just one method and what fits in your dynamic may vary, but I thought I would throw it out there as another tool for the toolbox. If you are interested, try looking into training books for dogs that use positive training techniques- not that your sub is a dog- but it simply shows how Skinners methods are applied in a training context, so is easier than trying to read through a bunch of psychobabble. One I like is "Don't Shoot the Dog". Also recommend watching animal planet's "It's Me or the Dog" to see how trainers modify poor behavior. Might give you some ideas.

Peace,

anna



WizardOfDelphi -> RE: How would you punish a sub who disobeyed (8/12/2008 12:52:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis
Lastly, studies that Skinner and others have done have shown that punishment has NO predictable effect on changing behavior. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. But positive reinforcement does predict a behavior increase. in whatever is being reinforced.


You make some very good points.  Particularly about attention getting behavior.  I'm quite aware of that, but did not think to mention it when I was posting.  I see this mistake made often by dominants.  Their submissive wants attention so acts up, the dom then punishes them for the behavior and it repeats.  Sometimes I hear the dom complain that their sub is disobedient, untrainable, bratty, etc.  When, from an external perspective at least, its fairly obvious what's actually going on.  So thanks for pointing that out.

Regarding the Skinner studies, its been a long while since I read a Psychology text book.  Were the studies you're referring to done on dogs?  I'm not really sure those studies apply completely to humans in a BDSM context.  I have personally found that punishment, used well, can be an extremely effective tool in BDSM.  Part of the trick to making it effective is that punishment should be infrequent, well deserved and be something that will have a genuine negative effect on the sub/slave to the degree appropriate.  It can be difficult to get it right with so many variables.  Personally, I find myself using punishment mostly with a new sub/slave in the first few weeks / months.  To drive home the point about rules, protocol, behavior, etc when needed.  But, once I've made my point, I find it is very rare that I need to repeat myself.

Of course, everyone will have different results based on their own particular style, personality, preferences and of course many factors involving their sub/slave.



Paulnz -> RE: How would you punish a sub who disobeyed (8/12/2008 1:00:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis


This is just one method and what fits in your dynamic may vary, but I thought I would throw it out there as another tool for the toolbox. If you are interested, try looking into training books for dogs that use positive training techniques- not that your sub is a dog- but it simply shows how Skinners methods are applied in a training context, so is easier than trying to read through a bunch of psychobabble. One I like is "Don't Shoot the Dog". Also recommend watching animal planet's "It's Me or the Dog" to see how trainers modify poor behavior. Might give you some ideas.




I've got a lot of experience in training dogs. A major difference between a dog and a human is the human has the ability to think through ' if I do this that will result and so and so will be unhappy. ' A dog doesn't have that predictive ability. The dog will know ' uh oh, I just did that and now I'm for it ' but not think beforehand that doing it will bring on the ' uh oh ' moment. So corporal punishment for a dog is of much lesser value than it is for humans ( for instance ).



DomDolf -> RE: How would you punish a sub who disobeyed (8/12/2008 1:04:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rc4otkVA

I don't tolerate disobedience from subs. I would beat them and humiliate them into doing anything I wanted.


Does this work best with all submissives?



DomDolf -> RE: How would you punish a sub who disobeyed (8/12/2008 1:22:23 AM)

I feel that you must know why the problem occurred and all factors surrounding it. You must understand the submissive and their mental and physical status.  If I have to punish I must evaluate my leadership in what lead to the situation also.

Advice from me:

1. The punishment should fit the submissive.
2. If you are a sadist, keep in check your sadistic nature and make sure it does not influence the punishment. 
3. Be just in your decisions and methods.
4. Punishment should be used to correct a problem.
5. Evaluate your role in the problem without prejudice.
6. Evaluate whether the relationship is a good one with many successes. Is the relationship a failure?
7. If you are constantly punishing, at least one of the above is not being addressed.

Dolf



sunshinemiss -> RE: How would you punish a sub who disobeyed (8/12/2008 2:19:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rc4otkVA

I don't tolerate disobedience from subs. I would beat them and humiliate them into doing anything I wanted.


Greetings rc,
Wow, how's that working for you?  If you have to do that, you're not really mastering them are you?  From this side of the slashy and the whole ... my experience my opinion disclaimer... That just hurts my head.  I, as a deeply submissive woman WANT to serve, hate to be disobedient, love to please.  Disobedience FOR ME means one of just a few things. 

*  I didn't undertstand the order but did follow as best as I understood it.  
*  The order was too big and needed to be broken down into smaller steps, but I still did follow as best as I could.  .
*  The behavior touches on a deep seated fear that has paralyzed me in some way and therefore needs to be handled more carefully so I am not emotionally harmed in the process. 
*  It is a new behavior and I need a little time to break old patterns - it takes about thirty days to change any behavior.  But I'm doing my best to achieve what he wants and am catching myself quicker and quicker in the process.
*  The order is harming me and I am preserving myself, whether I know it conciously or not.
*  Some combination of the above.

What kind of submissive woman are you attracting if you have to beat or humiliate them into submission?  That's not a Master or Dom in my book.  That's just a bully.

well wishes,
sunshine




Abaddon2u -> RE: How would you punish a sub who disobeyed (8/12/2008 5:11:09 PM)

First and foremost, I used to play chess on a daily basis, when I was younger, with a world class grand master. He gave me what is perhas the best advice I have ever recieved. He told me that my game was excellent and only lacked one thing.... "before you make a move, sit on your hands" it gives one time to carefully consider.

Before punishing a sub it is necessary to understand why she disobeyed. It is the wise Dominate (IMHO), whom stops to think when pointing a finger at a sub three are pointing right back at one's self.

Since pain can be as much reward, as punishment I do not feel that is the road to take. Nor do I feel that verbally degrading someone that has givin me a precious gift and made my life more complete speaks well of us or the choices we have made.

The basic premiss here is that the sub wants to serve and please, if the sub fails in this the question is why.

Determine the cause reflect and the solution should reveal it's self.

If it was a case of too complex or completly unfamilliar task.... I would give the sub the "I am very disapointed look",and proceed to demonstrate exactly how I wished it done in the future.

If it was a case of the sub wanting attention.... no punishment is required  as it has already been rendered, no sub likes being ignored or neglected. In this case it would be the Dominate's responsibility to correct the situation.
It may be the way  the sub is letting you know you better get your shit together, while following their nature.

Just my opinion, but it works for me.

Abaddon





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