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RE: lower then a slave - 7/28/2008 12:07:11 PM   
Demspotis


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We won't get any definitive answer here, because there's many conflicting opinions and ideologies. :)

But for what it's worth, here's my legalistic answer:

"Lower" refers to social heirarchy. Among the free, there is social heirarchy, called either class or caste. There are many cultures, with different relative positions for many of the classes. And then there are differences between ideals and realities. Some examples, in the traditional Japanese class system, particularly as codified and rigidified by Shogun Tokugawa Ieyasu, merchants were considered lower than peasants, though higher than untouchables such as butchers, tanners and executioners. In the Gorean caste system, there is some ambiguity: the merchants want to be considered "high caste" and the "high castes" have severe doubts about that! There is somewhat of a real world reflection of that, too: in India, on one hand, merchants are classified with warriors and priests/academics as the high classes, apart from the common workers; and on the other hand, they are sometimes also classed with the workers, apart from the warriors and priests who have higher ideals and values, theoretically.

Now then, below those free classes are such groups as serfs, slaves and outlaws. In some cases, slaves may be considered outside the social heirarchy altogether, but sometimes they are considered the lowest. Either way, in general, a slave is lowest in that sense. (The fact that we masters and mistresses may treasure our two-legged pets very highly, as I do, is a separate issue! :))

However, within the category of slaves, there can be heirarchy as well. So in that heirarchy, certainly one slave may be lower than another. But they are still also equally slaves in regard to any non-slave.

A submissive who is not a slave is free, and has as much as anyone else to have a slave. Does it make that slave any lower than other slaves? Not legalistically. Socially, perhaps, but it seems like a very subjective thing.

Can a slave own slaves? That depends very much on the legal ideas involved. In some forms of slavery, a slave may own nothing. In others, a slave might have the right to own property, including slaves, but still be owned by another. Even in that case, at least legalistically, the slave-of-a-slave is not "lower" than other slaves, but the social ideas about it may be subjective.

What about for people in the BDSM world? There is no overarching set of rules that apply to all. Essentially, the rules of slavery in every M/s relationship in the BDSM world are negotiated separately. Some masters/mistresses may say that the slave owns nothing, while others may have no such idea, and everything in between. As such, in that sphere, we can't make any legalistic determination, and so it comes down to subjective opinions among the people.

Heh... so in the end, this doesn't help much, because there is no one standard answer. Oh well... hope it helps someone in some way, though... 

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RE: lower then a slave - 7/28/2008 12:45:17 PM   
Owner4SexSlave


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First of all.....   A submissive that owns a slave actually is a "Switch".  

Second of all...  what do you mean exactly when you use the word "Low", because for some it's perhaps the "highest" thing to serve somebody.





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RE: lower then a slave - 7/28/2008 4:48:23 PM   
Allondra


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner4SexSlave

First of all.....   A submissive that owns a slave actually is a "Switch".  




Really?  Not at all my definition of "switch".  Why can't you be a submissive and own a slave? 

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RE: lower then a slave - 7/28/2008 5:03:32 PM   
Prinsexx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner4SexSlave

First of all.....   A submissive that owns a slave actually is a "Switch"


i can switch.....and i am slave who doesn't own anyone. when i switch i not only switch power dynamic i switch sexual preference as well..........when i am allowed to that is


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RE: lower then a slave - 7/28/2008 5:12:42 PM   
daddysliloneds


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beaten2service

is it possible to become lower then a slave?
is a slave that is owned by a sub lower then a normal slave?

i do have some concept of the difference between a sub and slave just so you know, before i get someone calling me silly names or other things its just a question or two.


you can be a beta slave, which some see as lower than an alpha slave in rank, but both are still slaves all the same.

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RE: lower then a slave - 7/28/2008 6:00:34 PM   
DiurnalVampire


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Allondra




Really?  Not at all my definition of "switch".  Why can't you be a submissive and own a slave? 

If you own a slave, that means you are dominant to that slave... or else you wouldnt own them. If you are dominant to that slave, and submissive to someone else, that makes you the standard definition of a switch.

AS for the rest of it.. I have known Dominants that I do not consider "higher" than my slave, so its a very subjective question. I dont consider my boys low, so to consider someone else lowER than tham isnt realy difficult.

DV


< Message edited by DiurnalVampire -- 7/28/2008 6:01:01 PM >


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(in reply to Allondra)
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RE: lower then a slave - 7/28/2008 6:11:13 PM   
jro2020


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Looks like OP does not want to clarify, sad.  Some of the first responders seemed down right hostile to the question.

Demspotis: Don't forget the Eta, the Shunned, and other untouchables, definitely afforded less rights than slaves in their societies.

In my opinion* yes, it is possible to be "lower" than a slave, you could be just a prisoner or inmate.  Not even given the chance to serve, not used for anyone's pleasure, just kept hidden away from polite society.

*and by opinion I mean using my definition of terms.


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RE: lower then a slave - 7/28/2008 6:16:13 PM   
Racquelle


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Whale Shit

you can't get much lower

it's at the bottom of the ocean

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RE: lower then a slave - 7/28/2008 6:21:17 PM   
kiwisub12


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damn it Racquelle- i was going for the smartarse answer with "a snake" being lower than a slave - but you beat me to it!

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RE: lower then a slave - 7/28/2008 6:41:47 PM   
AquaticSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beaten2service

is it possible to become lower then a slave?
is a slave that is owned by a sub lower then a normal slave?

i do have some concept of the difference between a sub and slave just so you know, before i get someone calling me silly names or other things its just a question or two.


Depends on how you look at it. I don't see there as being much difference between subs and slaves other than a few letters. I know that in our household we would not consider my girl (if it happens) lower simply because she answers to me.

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(in reply to beaten2service)
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RE: lower then a slave - 7/28/2008 7:00:09 PM   
wideeyedgirl


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Quick Reply -

Im guessing the right answer might be beta slave. Or like someone mentioned - in a large old fashioned household, how servants would answer to the house manager, who while still a servant herself/himself - was in charge of the lower servants.Im working my way thru the Marketplace books now...and just started the second one - but maybe Chris? He didnt own any of the trainees, but he was still a slave himself and was in charge of them?

I guess back to what the OP ...
Its all about the individual dynamic. For example - a poly house, a group of friends I have...when the *pet* is in trouble..he is given to the slavegirls of the house for punishment/ridicule./humiliation. Basically that he is the pet of slaves.  So in that case - he is "the lowest" type.

If you want to get technical tho - can a slave even own property. Gor as an example, a slave doesnt even own the silks she wear, nor land or jewelery, she herself in property - so she could not own another.

Wishing the OP'er would clarify the situation the question is being asked tho..

The nifty thing about Ds...we all make the definition that works for us. Be happy.

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RE: lower then a slave - 7/28/2008 7:08:06 PM   
ThundersCry


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If its you your talking about...your a slave, what you need to come to grips with is...
 
How very special you are going to be in whoever enslaves you...
 
Be it a Domme`, Mistress, Master....Switch...Submissive...
 
Let go of the idea of how unworthy you are, thats a lie in your....mind...
 
Focus on how special you really....are...and what you really have to offer someone...
 
Good luck kid...

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RE: lower then a slave - 7/28/2008 8:28:01 PM   
Owner4SexSlave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner4SexSlave

First of all.....   A submissive that owns a slave actually is a "Switch"


i can switch.....and i am slave who doesn't own anyone. when i switch i not only switch power dynamic i switch sexual preference as well..........when i am allowed to that is



I directly addressing the context as per the OP, and limited it to only the Scope.  A sub owning a slave.   In order to own somebody you are the D part of the D/s equation.   Good lord, don't tell me slaves should start looking for subs to own them now.   LOL...

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RE: lower then a slave - 7/28/2008 8:30:28 PM   
Owner4SexSlave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Allondra

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner4SexSlave

First of all.....   A submissive that owns a slave actually is a "Switch".  




Really?  Not at all my definition of "switch".  Why can't you be a submissive and own a slave? 



Back to owning somebody being the D side of the D/s equation.  If somebody own you, you are submissive to them.  If you own somebody else as well.. they are submissive to you and they look at you a being their Owner or Dom/me.  Hence you are both a sub and a Dom/me.   Thus a Switch....

(in reply to Allondra)
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RE: lower then a slave - 7/28/2008 8:33:42 PM   
Owner4SexSlave


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Strangest thing, I've known some Doms that actually were lower than slave, wait.. they were lower then a dog..  Wait lower then.. what was that comment somebody made about whale shit at the bottom of the ocean again?

(in reply to Demspotis)
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RE: lower then a slave - 7/28/2008 8:33:56 PM   
Leatherist


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A "Major Domo" in a poly house can technically own and control servants of lesser ranks through hierarchy, as second in command to the authority figure. All are still considered servants of the owner-not switches.

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RE: lower then a slave - 7/28/2008 8:43:34 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: YourhandMyAss

Just remember that not every one wants to be a prized property, or thinks of themself as property:) It'll be diffrent for every one you ask.
quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

since when is a slave "low"? IMHO they are prized property of the Master 



Very true, and some slaves rank themselves lower on the totem pole than their owner, or even than any other average citizen.  I suspect this is what the OP was referring to.  And yes, slaves can own property, pets, and other slaves, depending on the arrangement within their slavery.  For some, the slave of a slave has a lower ranking. 


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RE: lower then a slave - 7/28/2008 11:42:30 PM   
DarkVictory


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Then - Than

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RE: lower then a slave - 7/28/2008 11:56:00 PM   
ownedgirlie


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Why thank you but I used "than" correctly.

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RE: lower then a slave - 7/29/2008 12:03:55 AM   
DarkVictory


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Why thank you but I used "than" correctly.


Argh.  In response to - wrong..... sorry.


SHOULD be -In response to OP


< Message edited by DarkVictory -- 7/29/2008 12:08:30 AM >

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