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RE: Checklist for Masters? - 11/17/2005 8:48:02 AM

firestrikes

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From: Washington
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
Why isn't the checklist you were given useful for the other side of the slash? I haven't seen any checklists that couldn't be turned around easily with a few edits.

The checklist and the processing/discussion it generated were very useful for me, but there were no items that specifically addressed the characteristics that Padriag and others (including you) emphasized in the "Masters Self Control" thread that got me considering this whole idea. These characteristics were: control over emotions, self-discipline, financial responsibility, level of communication/negotiation "importance" or valuation (not sure how to phrase this one adequately) . Granted, I have only viewed a couple of checklists, so you are pointing me in a direction that I will gladly make use of. I don't want to waste time developing something if it already exists out there. Tweaking an existing format is much preferred to starting from scratch so I appreciate your question.

I guess where I am heading with this at the moment is: How do we gauge our own self-assessment skills? How transparent are we when it comes to willingness to put ourselves out there honestly and talk about our strengths and our challenges, as we search for others to engage with intimately/share LIVE connection with? How direct and clear are we willing to be with ourselves and others? How can we use a collection of printed words as a useful tool for filtering for those we resonate most cleanly with? Yes, ultimately we have to look each other in the eye (oops... for those who don't subscribe to restrictions on eye contact...) and determine with our guts if the person across from us is safe to play with... but what can we do before that point to prepare ourselves efficiently for meaningful exchange?

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 21

RE: Checklist for Masters? - 11/17/2005 8:52:28 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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quote:

ORIGINAL: firestrikes
addressed the characteristics that Padriag and others (including you) emphasized in the "Masters Self Control" thread that got me considering this whole idea.

Well I know my post and several others from that thread specifically mentioned that we considered those UNIVERSAL characteristics to be judged on ANY adult in ANY type of relationship, vanilla or Ds, slave or master.

And there really is no checklist for a persons character.

quote:

I guess where I am heading with this at the moment is: How do we gauge our own self-assessment skills?

Trial and error for the most part.

quote:

How transparent are we when it comes to willingness to put ourselves out there honestly and talk about our strengths and our challenges, as we search for others to engage with intimately/share LIVE connection with? How direct and clear are we willing to be with ourselves and others?

Depends on the person. Most people suck at it.

quote:

How can we use a collection of printed words as a useful tool for filtering for those we resonate most cleanly with?

Not very much. There's no short cut for just getting to know someone in day to day life as a person.

Doesn't mean the written word isn't useful, and powerful- it definitely is. But a checklist for character? No.

quote:

but what can we do before that point to prepare ourselves efficiently for meaningful exchange?

Be ourselves. Look for the patterns of behavior that mature secure adults make versus immature insecure adults.

< Message edited by LuckyAlbatross -- 11/17/2005 9:17:34 AM >

(in reply to firestrikes)

Post #: 22

RE: Checklist for Masters? - 11/17/2005 8:54:30 AM

fastlane

Posts: 2159
Joined: 5/26/2005
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She's pretty check
She's breathing check

That's it , that's the list

everything else I shall teach her!

_____________________________

Just because it hurts, doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing.

(in reply to firestrikes)

Post #: 23

RE: Checklist for Masters? - 11/17/2005 9:01:20 AM

Jasmyn

Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
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Thanks

I like the concept of it and why you think having a dom or con kind of resource available for new and exploring subs could only be a good thing. However I wonder, just thinking on my own early explorations, how useful a tool like that could be. Each submissive would need to have at least a basic understanding, if not fully grasp the concept there is a difference between submission and slavery, there is a difference between domination and control, there is a difference between sexual domination and power exchange, that there is a difference between bondage and discipline, that some doms will want to train, some will just expect, some will believe dominance is gender-specific, some won't, some will want reciprocal love, some won't, some won't want to do anything outside the bedroom, some will, some will only see B&D as a kink, others will see it as a lifestyle. They'd want to know where their own head was at before been able to judge where someone else's was?

And then there is the concept of giving a dominant a 'checklist' to see if they are compatible with a sub (on a level transcending the bdsm) ...like I said interesting ;)

_____________________________

quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.

Visit My Website

(in reply to firestrikes)

Post #: 24

RE: Checklist for Masters? - 11/17/2005 9:03:47 AM

firestrikes

Posts: 12
Joined: 8/19/2005
From: Washington
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns

Questionaires create a false sense of security, are cold, sterile, and teach you little about the person you are wanting to know.. Communication and observation will be the keys to success.

~Thorns

I agree that it is a cold and sterile instrument. I'm only advocating it as a place to start conversation from, for newbies who will stereotypically be unsophisticated in how to communicate with Masters and unskillful in knowing how to observe and draw useful conclusions from their observations. And yes, I think at the very least it would be a good tool for organizing one's thoughts around areas of critical interest.

(in reply to MrThorns)

Post #: 25

RE: Checklist for Masters? - 11/17/2005 9:15:57 AM

firestrikes

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I am a subscriber to the total power EXCHANGE paradigm... which suggests that Master and sub learn from one another - in contrast to the power flowing in only one direction paradigm that you apparently prefer.

(in reply to fastlane)

Post #: 26

RE: Checklist for Masters? - 11/17/2005 9:21:02 AM

firestrikes

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Joined: 8/19/2005
From: Washington
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Thank you. I can tell I would enjoy real live conversation with you. I appreciate the time you have taken to respond to my questions. Yes, everything we refer to here applies to relationships outside of this sphere, and I am glad to hear from someone who appreciates that fact.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 27

RE: Checklist for Masters? - 11/17/2005 9:22:02 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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quote:

ORIGINAL: firestrikes

I am a subscriber to the total power EXCHANGE paradigm... which suggests that Master and sub learn from one another - in contrast to the power flowing in only one direction paradigm that you apparently prefer.

I dont do "power exchange" because I'm not exchanging any power. I do authority transfer, in which authority DOES flow in only one direction.

What you are talking about here is INFORMATION exchange.

Are novices generally in frenzy, over their heads, and make stupid mistakes? Yes.

Should we do what we can to help them? Short of taking away their freedom to choose for themselves, absolutely.

Is there any good way to ACTUALLY do that? None that I have found.

If an adult is gonna go crazy and addicted and frenzied, it's simply going to happen. The only times I've seen it work well is if either the person snaps out of it quickly, OR is blind lucky enough to trip over a dominant who actually knows how to handle them and make them wake up, rather than just taking advantage.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, tools can always be useful. But people who want to be swept away simply will be.

(in reply to firestrikes)

Post #: 28

RE: Checklist for Masters? - 11/17/2005 9:26:50 AM

firestrikes

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Joined: 8/19/2005
From: Washington
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jasmyn

.... They'd want to know where their own head was at before been able to judge where someone else's was?

Yes, absolutely. I am thinking on different levels here. The tool would be educational for the sub first; get them thinking about where they stand on the issues they are about to ask the Master about... it is all reflexive in process. All about raising awareness for the sub to the issues s/he has not considered before, but perhaps ought to.

(in reply to Jasmyn)

Post #: 29

RE: Checklist for Masters? - 11/17/2005 9:29:52 AM

firestrikes

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From: Washington
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Oh, that remark was in response to a post by fastlane...

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 30

RE: Checklist for Masters? - 11/17/2005 9:58:34 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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quote:

ORIGINAL: firestrikes

Oh, that remark was in response to a post by fastlane...

I know. I was responding to your response to him.

(in reply to firestrikes)

Post #: 31

RE: Checklist for Masters? - 11/17/2005 11:31:49 AM

firestrikes

Posts: 12
Joined: 8/19/2005
From: Washington
Status: offline

[/quote]
I know. I was responding to your response to him.
[/quote]

Ah. Well, in that case I will simply add that for me, INFORMATION exchange is a form of power exchange, on an energetic level. To inform oneself or others enhances potential for depth of exchange, clarity of intent, and integrity level of action. I consider all of those potency-enhancers very empowering.

My position is that every interaction or communication between 2 individuals is essentially bi-directional in some form or another (some energy is exchanged on some level if there are a sender and receiver in the mix), so I have trouble accepting your "authority transfer" practice being exclusively uni-directional. Are you saying that you give input or stimulus and there is absolutely zero from the receiver? It doesn't compute in my brain, but I'm okay with that.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 32

RE: Checklist for Masters? - 11/17/2005 12:04:03 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: firestrikes
I consider all of those potency-enhancers very empowering.

Excellent point and I agree. Except in the case of energy vampires or specific energy rituals, all relational exchanges with every person entails some exchange of energy between those involved.

quote:

Are you saying that you give input or stimulus and there is absolutely zero from the receiver?

I'm saying that in a relationship as an owned slave, the Owner has ultimate authority. I transfer authority to him and he transfers no authority back to me.

There's energy exchange, yes. There's energy exchange in ALL relationships, as noted above.

But not authority exchange. To me, that's what defines M/s, the ultimate authority transfer.

(in reply to firestrikes)

Post #: 33

RE: Checklist for Masters? - 11/17/2005 2:02:15 PM

Archer

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Well one has to look at the checklist and the discussions between the people about the checklists and the things you have to read between the lines of the checklist, and then you find the things from the "Self Control" post.

Communication importance is read between the lines by looking at how long and in what depth the responces you each have checked off are addressed by the Dominant.
Did they skip right over stuff. Did they discuss the who when where and why they like caneing?, bondage? service? etc.

When they discussed the various responces did they address the general philosophy they have of D/s of SM of life in general?

Did they take the time to address all your questions or did they put off some questions until you simply gave up on getting an answer or forgot you had the question?

You're not just looking at what they like and don't like on what kind of play they enjoy, you are looking at the manner in which they address negotiation in general, the patience they show in addressing your concerns and questions, the various activities they have that require self discipline their history in life that would indicate stability.

No many of these issues are not directly in the checklist they are things you have to evaluate from the way they use the checklists. Besides who's gonna check off that they are impatient lack self control, and need anger management classes.
Those qualities are things that you find through paying attention to the way they control the negotiations the care they take in making sure things are covered.

The checklists really are a good tool when you look at all the information you can make note of while using the checklist.

In Leather

Archer

PS BTW the same things a submissive should be looking at apply to the Dominant trying to avoid submissives/slaves who have the same problems.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 34

RE: Checklist for Masters? - 11/17/2005 2:37:47 PM

slavejali

Posts: 2918
Status: offline

i never had a formal questionaire for Master, but i did have questions.

Things like (not necessarily in this order). Some of these things i asked directly, others i found out through the course of discussion, others through observation.

1. was he married?
2. What was his view on fidelity? Had he ever played up on a partner before?
3. What actual experience did he have within bdsm play?
4. What were the reasons behind past relationship endings?
5. What style of Master was he?
6. What did he expect of a slave?
7. What were his views/philosophy on life?
8. What kind of things did he like doing?
9. Had he travelled much?
10. What was his education?
11. What were his goals for the future in everyday life?
12. What were his highest aspirations?
13. How was his problem solving capabilities?
14. How did he react to stress?
15. What kinda skills did he have?
16. What did he think of how i lived my life at the moment?
17. What did he see as the perfect relationship for him? Had this been tested?
18. Was he a drug or alcohol abuser?
19. Did he have an open mind and not judge people harshly?
20. Did he enjoy intimacy?
21. Did he like trying new things?
22. Had he done any volunteer work or been helpful to society somehow?
23. Was he without too much baggage from his past?
24. Did he have good communication skills?

etc etc etc

(in reply to firestrikes)

Post #: 35

RE: Checklist for Masters? - 11/17/2005 5:15:13 PM

KnightofMists

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Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns

quote:

ORIGINAL: firestrikes

So, you would consider it funny if a sub presented you with a self-report questionnaire... can you tell me why it would be laughable to you?

Actually...yes. I would probably get a good chuckle out of it. The reason is that if someone wants to know something about me, they should talk with me, spend some time getting to know me and not be in a rush to get things going. Observe behaviors...watch for flags...look for inconsistencies, etc.

Questionaires remind me of baseball cards. Sure, I see the player and can account for every Home run, RBI, and error they have ever made in their long and illustrious career... but I'll be damned if I know anything about the kind of person Johnny Bench was.

I think it's wise to have an idea about what you want to know about prospective partners, so perhaps a checklist for yourself is a good idea as a way to keep your thoughts organized.

Questionaires create a false sense of security, are cold, sterile, and teach you little about the person you are wanting to know.. Communication and observation will be the keys to success.

~Thorns

you and I are on the same page here..

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to MrThorns)

Post #: 36

RE: Checklist for Masters? - 11/17/2005 5:29:49 PM

stormsfate

Posts: 849
Joined: 2/1/2005
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I'm not of the persuasion you were looking for responses from, but thought I would toss out there the fact that we rarely see ourselves the way others see us. As such, the only thing a profile or checklist or whatever will do is give you some insight on how that particular person views themself.

best regards,
fate

_____________________________

Vision? What do you know about MY vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions and the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you! Now ask yourself, are you really ready to see that vision? [/size

(in reply to firestrikes)

Post #: 37

RE: Checklist for Masters? - 11/17/2005 5:33:05 PM

obis

Posts: 412
Joined: 9/9/2005
From: Austin, TX, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: obis
I need to know how tight, rough, sharp, tiring, etc something feels before I can know how (and how long) to do it to another person.

And for me, doing it to yourself tells you absolutely none of those things about doing it to me.
I don't get the whole "do it yourself first" when it comes to bdsm kinks.

I'm not talking about kinks, I'm talking about trying a new knot on my own arm to make sure it doesn't tighten up and pinch skin, or hitting my own leg with a new flogger to get a sense of how speed affects it and if there are any sharp or rough edges I should fix or tie off. I certainly wouldn't pretend to know what it actually FEELS like for my sub to be restrained or punished, but kneeling on rough objects (as I would use for punishment) just to make sure it doesn't break skin seems like prudent preparation.

And more than once I've had to check that a particular position was physically possible, I don't want to break my girl's arm just because she was too proud to tell me to stop!

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 38

RE: Checklist for Masters? - 11/19/2005 10:36:41 AM

firestrikes

Posts: 12
Joined: 8/19/2005
From: Washington
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Communication importance is read between the lines by looking at how long and in what depth the responces you each have checked off are addressed by the Dominant.

When they discussed the various responces did they address the general philosophy they have of D/s of SM of life in general?

...you are looking at the manner in which they address negotiation in general, the patience they show in addressing your concerns and questions, the various activities they have that require self discipline their history in life that would indicate stability.

Yes, what you are referring to are the nonverbal components of assessing character and integrity and congruency. These are very important, and as you indicate, they can only be observed through face to face interaction - the checklist launches you into the space to actually get into this level. To me it seems that the initial contact meetings are all about negotiation - both the subtle and the not-so-subtle levels. Thanks for your input...

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

i never had a formal questionaire for Master, but i did have questions.

Yes, these are great questions for consideration. Thank you for compiling these and putting them in your post. There is a lot of useful material in those questions - good for anyone to ask in regards to an intimate relationship, not just in the d/s culture..

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 39

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