RE: Loyalty Question ? ? ?

RE: Loyalty Question ? ? ? (Full Version)

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porcelain26 -> RE: Loyalty Question ? ? ? (7/30/2008 10:07:44 PM)
I happen to be loyal to a fault, so maybe I'm not the best person to comment on this, but I'm going to, nevertheless. If it were my Owner who had pissed someone off and they said He was longer welcome, I'd quite simply tell them to go to hell. If you want me, you automatically accept Him, end of discussion. If you don't want Him around, don't ask me to go. This isn't to say that He would, I just find it rude that you'd say "oh well, he can't come play, but you're more than welcome" It vaguely reminds of 3rd grade honestly.

YourhandMyAss -> RE: Loyalty Question ? ? ? (7/30/2008 10:53:00 PM)
WEll honestly if you're making yourself unwelcome in social situations with your words and your actions you should reflect a bit on that because you'll quickly find yourself unwelcome everywhere, and that'd be bad. Secondly, I think it's their right to not want you around, but I think it's unrealistic to tell one half of the couple you're welcome but don't bring him* or her if it's a her* Thirdly though, I think that it's also your right, to not go where both of you aren't welcome to go, but those places will become severly limited if you keep offending people enough that they don't want you around. quote: ORIGINAL: GhoSSt My gal and I are at an impasse over a situation. I'm a little... err... socially blunt and I've said somethings that offended some mutual friends. The mutual friends have responded with a disproportionate response that basically says I'm not welcome to attend their training events or their social functions. I'm fine with that, but here's the kicker, but they have invited my girl to come to the training classes if she likes and further asked to hang out with her at work (they have a guest observation program) and socially (dinner, etc). I have a real issue with that. All of my other couple friends have said to me "We don't go anywhere that we're not welcome as a couple. In the end you have to choose your mate, even when their not innocent in the situation because thats who you love and live with". I think I'm in the right on this one, but I'd like to hear other opinions. NOMEX READY GhoSSt

Skully7000 -> RE: Loyalty Question ? ? ? (7/30/2008 10:53:39 PM)
If they were mutual friends then I wouldn't choose sides either. I wouldn't be happy at them for not accepting your "apology" but I also wouldn't force everyone to get along. but just because I wouldn't give up the friendship doesn't mean that you don't get preference on most things and most times. so if I had to choose between going to A with you and B with them...well most of the time you would win out. (occasionaly I would still go for change of pace and to see them as friends...and sometimes a special event is just to good to pass up) as for classes: I'm kind of surprised that anyone would be banned from an educational setting....but i'm used to bigger teaching establishments and organizations rather then smaller munches and social groups. so that changes things. either way, I would give it a little time and try to bury the hatchet again. loosing friends are bad enough(even though it seems like you are not concerned with that loss) but loosing access to educational situations and social settings with people in an already small community... not quite sure why you would be ok with that....but then again I'm only going off a tiny bit of info and filling in alot of the gaps with my own assumptions and experience. good luck.

YourhandMyAss -> RE: Loyalty Question ? ? ? (7/30/2008 10:55:07 PM)
Even if that was due to your partners own doing? quote: ORIGINAL: Roselaure However, I would not go anywhere that my partner was not welcome. Mess with one of us, and you get us both.

MasterFireMaam -> RE: Loyalty Question ? ? ? (7/30/2008 11:11:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GhoSSt I don't have any problem with her going and doing as she pleases. Vacations, friends, whatever. Its just the insults coupled with the way they conducted themselves was pretty juvenile and distasteful. GhoSSt You can't control how other people act. You can only control how you act. This seems to have been brought about by you...so why are you upset that they are now angry with you and are acting out? Bad behavior often breeds bad behavior. If you want the cycle to stop, you'll have to pay attention to your own behavior and step outside of the cycle. Master Fire

CalifChick -> RE: Loyalty Question ? ? ? (7/30/2008 11:59:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GhoSSt ... The mutual friends have responded with a disproportionate response that basically says ... [snip] So you admit you offended them, but they were a little TOO offended in your judgment? Really? Was this the first time or was it the last straw? Since you have no idea how it really made them feel, isn't it just a tad bit out of line to presume what their reaction should have been? Cali

RCdc -> RE: Loyalty Question ? ? ? (7/31/2008 1:50:55 AM)
Personally, you all sound like children acting up. I am not going to really comment on you and your behaviour because a) it isn't the issue and the question and b)because we have no idea of the situation, but there behaviour towards your girl sucks. They have placed her in a situation that means she has to choose and that is infantile and stupid and reeks of powerstruggle. If I was her, I would definately tell them that I thought their behaviour was appalling, regardless of your behaviour towards them and that they should grow up. the.dark.

RCdc -> RE: Loyalty Question ? ? ? (7/31/2008 1:57:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CalifChick quote: ORIGINAL: GhoSSt ... The mutual friends have responded with a disproportionate response that basically says ... [snip] So you admit you offended them, but they were a little TOO offended in your judgment? Really? Was this the first time or was it the last straw? Since you have no idea how it really made them feel, isn't it just a tad bit out of line to presume what their reaction should have been? Cali It really doesn't matter what he did and whether it was the first or only time. Their behaviour is completely out of order for the girl in question. You think it is healthy for anyone to place someone in the position of choosing thier relationship and loyalty over a few dinners and training demos? From the limited information we have here, it simply sounds like they are trying to make a point by using the girl. And regardless of her masters/owners behaviour, using anyone suck bigtime. the.dark.

CalifChick -> RE: Loyalty Question ? ? ? (7/31/2008 2:03:10 AM)
I didn't see it as them using her, I saw it as them letting her know that if they had separate friends and didn't do everything together, that despite her owner's appalling behavior, she was still welcome. I would hate that someone outside the relationship made the choice for those in the relationship, meaning, "we think your owner is a jerk, and he is not welcome, so therefore, you aren't either." Cali

RCdc -> RE: Loyalty Question ? ? ? (7/31/2008 2:24:08 AM)
There is a difference to stating that she can attend demos etc, and that his behaviour is not a reflection on her, to actually actively attempting to hang out with her. If you are banned from a group, session etc because your behaviour sucks - fine. I get that. But making the issue about the girl reeks of power struggle. It doesn't take a genius to work out that banning one person doesn't mean the entire partnership.family are banned. But by singling her out, they are negating her common sense, pointing out that they are in charge and using her to get to him. I don't get people who are friends with one and not with the other. Sure not everyone is going to get along, but this is nothing more han passing the buck and placing the girl in a shitty position. We aren't talking an everyday relationship here - in fact we have no idea what kind of relationship he has with the girl. It could be TPE, MM, SM, MS, Ds or noneoftheabove. But if she is a slave, or TPE - their socalled 'whiteflag' is nothing more than an empty gesture intended to manipulate their relationship. If he says no, she can't attend - he simply looks like an ass. If she says her loyalty lies with him, then she will end up being accused of being under abuse by someone they don;t like. If she goes and he allows it, then he can be accused of being weak and that his girl needs to get shit elsewhere. Whatever she does, shes damned by someone. Their 'whiteflag' has done nothing but placed the girl in a position of a schoolyard. For normal, healthy adults it simply didn't need to be said - and them saying it shows a lack of control and tit for tat crap you get at most groups. the.dark.

ShiftedJewel -> RE: Loyalty Question ? ? ? (7/31/2008 5:32:37 AM)
It's simple, if we all aren't welcome then none go. These are the people I've chosen to live with and these are the people I am loyal to. My family understands that any family function we attend there will be a group and they welcome us all with open arms. The same goes for any other function we chose to attend. I would feel like they were trying to undermine my relationship by blatantly making it a point to invite her to all these functions and then making sure he is aware that he isn't welcome. Yeah, to me is speaks of loyalty. There is no way in hell they are teaching something so special that she couldn't learn it someplace else and they could learn as a couple. *Jewel*

TysGalilah -> RE: Loyalty Question ? ? ? (7/31/2008 6:26:24 AM)
You, all, have put her in quite an uncomfortable position. One she doesn't deserve to deal with. Your actions brought consequences.....consequences for you to deal with. Restricting her from being with them is unfair. ... and trying to label her choices or decisions about it as loyal or not loyal > is immature and petulant. I see no fault tho' in your friends continuing to extend friendship and invitations to her. They are showing her that she is welcome, their beef is not with her. ( That they will not rise above this after your apology? well, they are putting her in an ackward position and probably need to think about that as much as you do ). You are using alot of energy trying to manipulate this back to their problem and taking the focus off what YOU learned from it. ...or didnt. Let her make her decisions and then whatever they might be, accept it completely and supportively. She doesn't deserve to be monkey in the middle or to deal with your consequences and life lessons.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Loyalty Question ? ? ? (7/31/2008 8:08:06 AM)
quote: they have invited my girl to come to the training classes if she likes and further asked to hang out with her at work (they have a guest observation program) and socially (dinner, etc). I have a real issue with that. My "issue" wouldn't be with them, but with your "gal". Why would she want to go to a place and be with people who don't welcome you? She wants to go without you? I would think this situation would be a 'no-brainer'.

MzMia -> RE: Loyalty Question ? ? ? (7/31/2008 8:11:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: they have invited my girl to come to the training classes if she likes and further asked to hang out with her at work (they have a guest observation program) and socially (dinner, etc). I have a real issue with that. My "issue" wouldn't be with them, but with your "gal". Why would she want to go to a place and be with people who don't welcome you? She wants to go without you? I would think this situation would be a 'no-brainer'. Especially, if the relationship is serious and committed. IF you are not in a serious and committed relationship, you can surely do whatever you want. Mercnbeth, I am starting to adore you, also. Everyone in life is not going to get along or like everyone else in life, imagine that? Everyone in the "kink" world is not going to like or get along with everyone else, either!!! Loyalty and trust mean a lot to me. I don't have people in my home, around me, my friends, and loved ones, that I don't consider loyal and trustworthy. Life is just too short. Common sense for many is not that common.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Loyalty Question ? ? ? (7/31/2008 8:12:27 AM)
We've been in this situation before... something was said, someone didn't like it, the member of our household who mis-spoke -tried- to apologize, and was summarily informed that hir apology was -not- accepted, and that we (as a household) were no longer welcome...specifically that NONE of the dominant members of our household could attend, but our servants could still attend without us... Our servants had sense enough to say "no thank you" without our prompting, but I don't know that I would keep a servant who continued involvement with an individual or individuals who were clearly holding a grudge. I also think it was rather vulgar (especially because the individuals at hand -knew- the dynamic in our household and -knew- they would be enticing our servants to do something that was against the integrity of the house) to invite the submissive individuals when the dominant individual(s) in the dynamic were being shunned. Firestorm

SimplyMichael -> RE: Loyalty Question ? ? ? (7/31/2008 8:20:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark There is a difference to stating that she can attend demos etc, and that his behaviour is not a reflection on her, to actually actively attempting to hang out with her. If you are banned from a group, session etc because your behaviour sucks - fine. I get that. But making the issue about the girl reeks of power struggle. It doesn't take a genius to work out that banning one person doesn't mean the entire partnership.family are banned. But by singling her out, they are negating her common sense, pointing out that they are in charge and using her to get to him. I don't get people who are friends with one and not with the other. Sure not everyone is going to get along, but this is nothing more han passing the buck and placing the girl in a shitty position. We aren't talking an everyday relationship here - in fact we have no idea what kind of relationship he has with the girl. It could be TPE, MM, SM, MS, Ds or noneoftheabove. But if she is a slave, or TPE - their socalled 'whiteflag' is nothing more than an empty gesture intended to manipulate their relationship. If he says no, she can't attend - he simply looks like an ass. If she says her loyalty lies with him, then she will end up being accused of being under abuse by someone they don;t like. If she goes and he allows it, then he can be accused of being weak and that his girl needs to get shit elsewhere. Whatever she does, shes damned by someone. Their 'whiteflag' has done nothing but placed the girl in a position of a schoolyard. For normal, healthy adults it simply didn't need to be said - and them saying it shows a lack of control and tit for tat crap you get at most groups. the.dark. OR, they are trying to educate a dumbass and make the point that his behavior sucks, he is too childish to admit it and that PERHAPS by pointing out that they are not stupid enough to ban anyone he knows that MAYBE he might pull his head out of his ass. Or they could be trying to break them up or play power struggles but we don't really know enough to say.

Hizprincess -> RE: Loyalty Question ? ? ? (7/31/2008 8:26:21 AM)
It is quite simple Master and i are a O/one. If He is not welcomed then i am not welcomed. Bottom line is i am a part of Him that goes nowhere without Him.

GhoSSt -> RE: Loyalty Question ? ? ? (7/31/2008 8:40:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW We've been in this situation before... something was said, someone didn't like it, the member of our household who mis-spoke -tried- to apologize, and was summarily informed that hir apology was -not- accepted, and that we (as a household) were no longer welcome...specifically that NONE of the dominant members of our household could attend, but our servants could still attend without us... Our servants had sense enough to say "no thank you" without our prompting, but I don't know that I would keep a servant who continued involvement with an individual or individuals who were clearly holding a grudge. I also think it was rather vulgar (especially because the individuals at hand -knew- the dynamic in our household and -knew- they would be enticing our servants to do something that was against the integrity of the house) to invite the submissive individuals when the dominant individual(s) in the dynamic were being shunned. Firestorm This is actually very very close to what happened. I'm a pretty blunt guy, ex-military, construction worker, not much phases me. This just seemed over the top. GhoSSt

LadyPact -> RE: Loyalty Question ? ? ? (7/31/2008 8:50:16 AM)
Let Me see if I can explain My thoughts on this and get them to make sense. Ok, OP, first things first. You obviously did something to make yourself unwelcome. What the people are saying by still inviting your girl to attend means that these other people are not holding your offense against your girl. In other words, they feel no need to punish her for whatever you did. To Me, that's reasonable. Afterall, we don't lock up someone's wife because a husband commits a crime, now do we? As to whether your girl should accept the invitation, I do think that's another matter. If I wasn't welcome somewhere, I highly doubt it would be something that either My husband or My sub would attend. (I'm not talking about male only or sub only type activities. Those things I encourage.) The same goes the other way around. If My husband or My sub isn't permitted somewhere, I'm not attending. (Again, not talking about ladies spa day or something of the sort.) When we're together, we are a family of three. It's all of us, or none of us. It could be the greatest class in the world, but if My husband can't be at My side, or My sub can't sit at My feet, the organizers can forget about Me attending.

OnlyHisLovebug -> RE: Loyalty Question ? ? ? (7/31/2008 8:58:35 AM)
Honestly, I don't know if there are hidden agendas here or not. Maybe the intentions of the other couple are not to manipulate. Maybe they just don't want to exclude the girl, or give up activities they enjoyed with her in the past, simply because they don't like her partner. By his own admission, they obviously have a valid reason not to like him. I guess I'm lucky, as this would never be considered a 'loyalty' issue by my Master. If I still wanted to be with them, He would never consider it a slight in any way. He knows what He means to me- and He also knows that no casual friendship could ever interfere with it. If, however, He did not want me to go- He'd simply tell me-and then I wouldn't go. Not because He'd ordered it-because this is not the sort of thing He'd ever forbid; but because His feelings matter to me more than anything else in the world.

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