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RE: BDsM and abuse survivors - 11/17/2005 4:50:08 PM

slavejali

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i thought of something to add here.. (now to put it into words)

Even with everything i have lived through, and i used to word earlier *abused* cuz its the word people use for the experiences i have had in my life..but i wanted to say something about that..which may make me sound odd.

ive really never felt like a victim. ive never been angry about the experiences i have had. As a child i had no concept that anything was wrong with what was happening...nor with my first husband...so there was no foundation for me to be angry from..if that makes sense.

as i grew up and into the other experiences i described earlier..i did experience a confusion....like..what am i supposed to be feeling here?

What im trying to say is..it wasnt till later..when i experienced something good...that i ...
um,mm...i think i will post this and think about it some more...not really sure what im trying to say or how to say it. i just cant relate to people who are angry over their pasts (not meaning to offend..just saying..i cant get a handle on it)..and im attempting to express how it was for me...anyways ciao for now lol..ceasing and desisting this post

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RE: BDsM and abuse survivors - 11/17/2005 7:40:20 PM

redheadedfire4u

Posts: 104
Joined: 11/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ICGsteve

The fact is that survivors of childhood sexual abuse are unussually drawn to BDSM. The reason I have heard given for this most often is that this is a way to work through the abuse experiance while being in charge of the process, which to my mind is not exactly the same thing as "reEnactment" My wife is a survivor of CSA, and I have been active in healing communities for a number of years, and I don't buy it. I think that those who have been sexual from an early age, those who learned in childhood the power of sex and the relationship between power and sex, are drawn to explore this aspect of humanity. Our culture always wants to brush the dirty truth about power under the rug, does not want to talk about it or deal with it, but abuse survivors know that once the cat is out of the bag there is no going back to ignorance. Once surivors have learned in childhood through abuse of the relationship between sex and power it often becomes an itch the demands to be scratched. This is a good thing as there is much to be learned through BDSM.

I very much agree with what has been said but would like to add something most respectfully. For me it is more than just having my sexuality awoken at an early age but the fact that it developed without the adult controls and framework that it should of ... instead of it being a step by step thing that was developed in with adult ideals of right and wrong / good and bad it grew wild and without restraints from within ... In my case it was abusive in a very physical way and covered with a type of emotional black mail that really screwed with adult ideas of trust and commitment that I am still working through even 30yrs later.

As every personality is different so are the ways that people deal with it ... I traveled the roads of anger, hating men, hating the world, woe is me, why me, and theraphy ... none really helped me much ... for me facing the fears and making them my own by making them a choice rather than something forced on me has worked in that now I look at them and can take or leave them they no longer haunt me but are part of me... I stress this is not for everyone only that it works for me ... I have found that BDSM can provide me with a safe enviroment to do this with a Sir who understands what I am doing and supports and guides and watches out for my safety ... so lucky to have found Him I am blessed ... in doing this I have pushed at my trust issues and found depths of trust I did not think were possible for one such as me ... again I thank Him for this ... He finds beauty in my darkess places and helps me bring them into the light, He has shown me that I can talk about things I have never in life ever spoken of and I see no pity in His eyes only pride and pleasure at what W/we are doing and the healing that it brings ...
As a submisssive my sexuality is accepted, my needs are met, and explored with out guilt or shame, and who I am blossums into all that I can be. Under His strength guidence and dominance ... I am happy and free ... life is good I hope all find there way as well and their own happiness
warm smiles to all

_____________________________

Driver1961's girl "wild child" and loving sister to His angel

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RE: BDsM and abuse survivors - 11/18/2005 12:56:48 PM

truesub4u

Posts: 2949
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please excuse my opinion, for my opinion is hardly warrented here. but in my years as a sub/slave, i've been asked why?.... why do i live like i do and allow someone to take from me what others worked so hard to get for me. the only answer i can come up with it, it's who i am. it's who i have become. no matter the reason behind it. I may not of been abused in my home growing up. ( i rebeled at 13 and was on the streets). but i was abused by others. during all the experiances i have had, and go thru now. my path is what i choose, more so than being pushed. to meet me on any average day and place, one would never guess my life style. if at all they would think me Dominant. i'm far from that in my heart. being a single mom, in reality, i've had to be.

having the freedom to come and go as you please, gives you the choice to choose the life of a Dom, sub or vanilla. and most that have never experianced any of the life style are afraid of it. afraid to go deep inside themselves and allow any sercrets that lie in there to surface. and so there they think it totally wrong and try to place the blame elsewhere. (think growing up in the bible belt brought that out. )

i agree with most on here, dump the head shrinker that has probably never experianced multi- orgasms in 1 day in their life. and try to show your parents now what others on here have tried to tell you. they live a life they they are comfortable with. as so should you. in time, they'll come to accept it. they may not like it, or agree with it, but they will accept it.

i wish you all the luck in the world with being able to go on with your life. and in the manner that makes you the happiest. because that's what we all stive for in live, and that's being happy.

on a finaly note, i appologize if i've insulted anyone in any manner here. it was not my intention.

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RE: BDsM and abuse survivors - 11/19/2005 5:53:04 PM

jamesthehumanrug

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leathery lace
unfortunately i dont know any info in print on family and religion and children and bdsm lifestyle
we're ,too traditonal ,as far, as i know..
sex is one thing you NEVER discuss with your parents ,in the long run ;its a private subject and youll wish they knew nothing
talk anything else but parents cant take sex without getting somehow involved or injecting opinions ,so stay clear
i have the same experience as you
therapists seem almost incompetent .i'm ashamed ,so many times ,of the clinical field;so unless you know someone ,and ,you pay mega bucks like a psychoanalist(even that may make you sick when you hear about freud) or get a hollywood lifestyle therapist,or therapist for ARTISTS YOU'D end up in trouble; even in the womens exclusive liberated and feminist areas ;there's bias ,on the side ,of traditional standard opinion
you can say both A.P.As'
american psychlogical and american psychiatric association have long ago verified sm/bd as a healthy relationship and preference.
a recall a therapist who said ok tell me of your childhood now
everyone out of four womin
has some abuse sexually growing up
thats 75% of the population !
not counting the men!!
so she says :my wish to be an object intimately speaking means im severely disassociating and re -enacting my childhood abuse history.
well thankgod or i couldnt COME at all !
what does she want
barefoot, and, prego, or beer drinking sensitive vanilla ocassional sex,for me
we are each intelligent ,and, ausomely unique ,so stay away ,from confessing to parents ,as long ,as you can ,or someone else will be coming, FOR you.
picture this: and use common horse sense,if you ,became, a prisoner ,in s and m, to someone ,or a hostage ,in real life -the advise is -stay away from all therapist and anyone ,in the mental-health field ,until completely free ,of the situation....
guess why?

< Message edited by jamesthehumanrug -- 11/19/2005 6:00:39 PM >

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,LOVEles,
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RE: BDsM and abuse survivors - 11/19/2005 9:26:12 PM

pandoravampire

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The only response to your parents i can see is this:
what the fuck are they doing poking there noses into YOUR sexuality? why are you discussing this with them in the first place?

That said.

who gives a shit why we like the things we like, if they bring us pleasure, does it matter?

big difference between getting abused and getting dominated, bdsm is consentual, the other is abuse.

just because your abuse stole your childhood, why the hell let it steal you adult sexuality too? Cant change the past, so put it down and move on. You are presumably a adult now, what happened was er, how long ago now? ages. You'll be amazed at how 'light' and airy not carrying baggage around daily can be, i highly recommend it.

as a aside: i do hope its you disclosing your sexual intimacies with your parents and not the therapist! Coz that would be breach of confidentiality and you should sack them and prosecute. And think about why your telling your folks this stuff?

be well

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RE: BDsM and abuse survivors - 11/20/2005 2:18:58 AM

ZiolaBluu

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leatherylace

So, I am a survivor of incest and my adoptive parents and my therapist thinks that the BDsM lifestyle is a reenactment of abuse. My Girlfriend, who has recently been exploring BDsM, has never experienced any abuse of any kind. I know that my involvement in the scene is not wholly based on my past abuse as my parents and therapist believe. Does anyone have an understanding of the psychology behind BDsM and a way to explain to my parents and therapist about how BDsM is not a reenactment (in most cases) of the abuse me or any other survivors have experience. Does anyone have any written recourses that I could give to them to help to understand the principles behind the lifestyle?

I feel as though they are trying to protect you from what they fear. And the typical person fears the unknown. Perhaps they are quite misguided and uniformed about what takes place in the community beyond what there imaginations can conjure up for them. I would say it is important for you to be sure you know why you are involved. What it is you get from it. And from there you can work to educate them on why BDSM's not 'always' as scary as it seems.

P.S. I can't believe 'newbies' start as Vanilla *ugh*..

~Lady Z

< Message edited by ZiolaBluu -- 11/20/2005 2:27:05 AM >

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RE: BDsM and abuse survivors - 11/20/2005 3:42:37 AM

lovingmaster45

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quote:

This is who you are. The only thing you can tell them is that you are who you are and that many people are into this who have no history. Whether this is who you will continue to be is a matter of time and really not relevant to dealing with past abuse.

You should find a new therapist.

You should have NO therapist.

If anyone can site ONE longitudinal study that shows the efficacy of even ONE therapy; then I will admit that psychobabble is useful.

For those of you not scientifically proficient, a longitudinal study follows groups of people over a period of time. It compares group A which had no therapy, group B which had therapy 111; group B which had therapy 222; group C which had therapy 333; group D which had therapy 444, and compares the results.

In EVERY longitudinal study there is NO difference in the control group from ANY of the groups having ANY type of therapy.

_____________________________

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RE: BDsM and abuse survivors - 11/20/2005 4:55:25 AM

fyreredsub

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i have been through all the abuses out there and survived them.i now help others to have the power to change their lives and schemas.

i did not come to this lifestyle till after i had battled my demons and won.
when i entered into WIITWD it as as a top....
figured i would be really great at it and my lil ex-sammie the subbie boy thought i would be one hell of a sadistic bitch b/c of it,him even pushing my buttons w/ his lil sammie games,
didn't draw me out....i topped to please him.......

methinks i was a sub then

let me get back on track here.
i didnt enjoy sex until after years of celebacy. i learned about the pleasures of sex through masterbation and i knew i truly enjoyed my body and pleasure and had no shame about the past when i could watch myself get off in the mirror,on my knees, where i could really look into my eyes.
then and only then did i feel healthy enough to start having a sex life ,this time the way i wanted life to be for me.......my decision/not my abusers.

for me this meant there is nothing to relive.
too many therapists claim that bdsm is abuse, i know i train under them....
tween freud blaming everything on childhood issues and adlers lifestyles theory...and then in family systems recapitualion(sp) of the family of origin......i can see why they would say that and believe it.

noone but you can know what is in your heart......

tell your family and therapist that you believe in existentialism (started by victor frankle/holocust survivor)for therapy practice and maybe they will back of a bit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: leatherylace

So, I am a survivor of incest and my adoptive parents and my therapist thinks that the BDsM lifestyle is a reenactment of abuse. My Girlfriend, who has recently been exploring BDsM, has never experienced any abuse of any kind. I know that my involvement in the scene is not wholly based on my past abuse as my parents and therapist believe. Does anyone have an understanding of the psychology behind BDsM and a way to explain to my parents and therapist about how BDsM is not a reenactment (in most cases) of the abuse me or any other survivors have experience. Does anyone have any written recourses that I could give to them to help to understand the principles behind the lifestyle?

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

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RE: BDsM and abuse survivors - 11/20/2005 5:36:52 AM

LadiesBladewing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

ive really never felt like a victim. ive never been angry about the experiences i have had. As a child i had no concept that anything was wrong with what was happening...nor with my first husband...so there was no foundation for me to be angry from..if that makes sense.

I understand -completely- where you are coming from here. There were also a number of areas in my life where things did not run according to the "norm", and I did not realize that there was a -problem- or something I was supposed to feel -badly- about until someone "helped" me to see how this thing was wrong/horrible/whatever. At that point, for me, there was often a great deal of confusion on those aspects, because I hadn't necessarily seen them as "bad".

In the same way, my parents were -very- strict and highly disciplined, and taught me to be the same. There was a -huge- phase in our culture that said that this kind of tight discipline was a -bad- thing and was "abuse". Looking back, I am -grateful- to my parents for how strict they were with me. I learned, from a young age, how to be disciplined, ordered, and structured in my own life. I may not have -liked- that level of discipline when I was younger ... especially when other kids didn't have to do the things that I did ... but I can tell you that I appreciated, even then, that my parents requirements allowed me to work at a higher level of productivity. I think that I was only 9 or 10 when I realized that.

That doesn't mean that my parents always handled things correctly, and that there weren't things in my life that I wish had gone a different way, but their mistakes aren't ones that they OR I feel too badly about. Those things are in the past, and the past is something each of us can -choose- to let go of, whenever we are ready to stop dwelling on it and live in the present. (I know ... too Zen for most people.)

I -chose- to be in this lifestyle, and, frankly, I knew what I was doing and I flourished and grew through the lessons I've learned here, and with the classical training in the LS that brought me to where I am now. I'm not a victim here. I've had my years where I chose to be a victim, and really, I didn't get much out of those. Even sympathy wears thin after a while and doesn't give the same "kick" as it did early on. I thrive on structure and discipline, and cherish the opportunity to direct, teach, and guide. It permeates every aspect of my life, including the power-dynamics that I cherish -in- my life.

Many people aren't honest about the dynamics that they live under. They maintain illusions about how they relate to others, and harbor fantasies of "being on top" in situations where they are required to yield power. At the same time, they harbor fantasies of "getting away from it all" in the places where the situation requires that they be disciplined and in control of a situation. I cherish that living in this lifestyle enables me to be, for the most part, honest with myself. It has opened my eyes to the power dynamics around me, that I live with every single day -- and has enabled me to make conscious choices about which of those power dynamics I can live with, and which ones I need to actively work to change or walk away from completely.

For the OP -- claim your life. If you are in therapy to help you figure out some things for yourself and deal with having survived a harrowing and violent experience, you may have to really -work- to keep the topic on track. As a pastoral counselor who is also active in the lifestyle, I believe that the connections that join BDSM and individuals recovering from traumatic past experiences is drawn by inference and by that individual. That doesn't make it "real" or "not real" -- it is, it exists, and people -do -use the tool in the way that best fits them. At the same time, having your parents and therapist get distracted by the tool means that their focus (and yours) is being taken from the -purpose-... which is to give you some closure on a very harrowing experience. At the same time, if you are using the lifestyle as a tool to help you get through and learn from this experience, GREAT. Tools are best when they are used. There is nothing wrong with using a tool in the way that seems right for you. That doesn't mean that -every- aspect of BDSM that you are involved in has to do with the trauma you've faced, but understanding which areas -do- work in the process of helping you heal will be good for you and help you to understand yourself more clearly.

One of the things that I focus on when I work with people is the whole idea that life is a huge series of choices. Other people's choices provide each of -us- with a new series of choices, and choosing how we will live is not a passive process. Even for individuals who yield up -everything- to their owners, they still must make hundreds of small choices to continue to submit each and every day. We can't walk away from our responsibility to who we are and what we choose to do, but we -can- use any tools that help us to understand about what we've done, and why, so that if we desire it, we can make different choices at another time. The past is over and gone. The only thing we can do with it is figure out what lessons it brought us, and use those wisely to shape our future.

Lady Zephyr

< Message edited by LadiesBladewing -- 11/20/2005 5:39:37 AM >

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RE: BDsM and abuse survivors - 11/20/2005 6:29:20 AM

Kiaban

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kyami

Well, I can not speak for others except for myself. I was never abused as a child, in any way shape or form. I grew up in a very loving, and nurturing environment. I have an excellent job, am an active member of my community, etc.
As to why I have chose to live this way? It is just who I am. I have had submissive tendencies for as long as I could remember. It's part of my makeup, so to speak. I don't try to analyze it, it's just there, and I accept it for what it is.

I don't think you will find a better answer than that , and it's true for most people.
Although some may have "reasons" for likes or dislikes...sometimes it really is as simple as "some like pie, some like cake, some like bdsm"

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RE: BDsM and abuse survivors - 11/20/2005 11:21:02 PM

LATEXBABY64

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i tend to try and stay in a straight line on this subject. while agree their are tons of abused people i also contest that doms dommes do not have phds in mental health. all they can do is offer support we can not fix the porblem thats up to the individual its been my experince that all bdsm does is patch the problems its kinda like a acholic at a aa meeting then they go by a bar and its drink city again. or a abusived person they go through a flash of something of the past could be anything and it will set them back years.
the best answer i can give you if you have someone who is loving and supportive thats a great thing the other thing is take your meds and excersices. seperate stimuls from bad if someone is abusive identyfy and cut them loose quickly with it be mentally or physically its all about you growing and living
namaste

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RE: BDsM and abuse survivors - 11/20/2005 11:34:52 PM

michaelMI

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speaking from my own personal experiences as someone who wasphysically abused as a child, no pill nor therapy has ever helped. it will always be with me, but as hard as it is, i live with it. in any case, i personally do not agree with therapy, but that's just me. as for meds, don't get me started on those either.

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RE: BDsM and abuse survivors - 11/21/2005 12:29:06 AM

MeryKitsune

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingmaster45

quote:

This is who you are. The only thing you can tell them is that you are who you are and that many people are into this who have no history. Whether this is who you will continue to be is a matter of time and really not relevant to dealing with past abuse.

You should find a new therapist.

You should have NO therapist.

If anyone can site ONE longitudinal study that shows the efficacy of even ONE therapy; then I will admit that psychobabble is useful.

For those of you not scientifically proficient, a longitudinal study follows groups of people over a period of time. It compares group A which had no therapy, group B which had therapy 111; group B which had therapy 222; group C which had therapy 333; group D which had therapy 444, and compares the results.

In EVERY longitudinal study there is NO difference in the control group from ANY of the groups having ANY type of therapy.

You're right. It's called the "dodo bird effect" in psychology. (where there is little difference between the control and the different theraputic techniques) It's an admitted weakness of the science. Anything involving people is always difficult to call. We're so changable and hard to predict. While there are predictable elements to everyone's personalities, there is no "law" (like the law of gravity or somesuch... theories that have been proven correct) in psychology. Nothing has been proven as such... and most are the ideas from a few (normally) men who think they know what's going on. It's by no means perfect.

The effacy of therapy is greatly dependent on the person in therapy and the therapist. It can be very helpful to have a mentor of sorts who can help you on your journeys of self-discovery. It can help to have someone who is not involved in your life give you advice and support should you need it. Friends and family have their own baggage and history with you that it's sometimes hard to be objective. A GOOD therapist (and unfortunately, those can be difficult to find) will try at all times to be objective. Unfortunately, finding said good therapist... one that clicks with you... is damned hard. I've managed to find one.

I can see why the therapist would be worried. The line between abuse and BDSM **can** be blurred easily, and a sub in this sort of relationship with a history of past abuse may find it harder to distinguish between healthy and abusive. Knowing oneself and having the security to know what one's boundaries is usually the best cure for it.

If I was Master of the Universe of Therapists, I'd caution you to be careful and I'd stress the importance of knowing what the differences are between a healthy BDSM relationship and an abusive one. After that, it's all up to you to make your own choices. You're a big girl.

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RE: BDsM and abuse survivors - 11/22/2005 12:22:38 AM

Morgaine289

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Leatherylace,

i am a Survivor of sexual and other abuse myself. I can understand that your adoptive parents are especially careful and afraid concerning you. But to echo what others have written, try to stop to discuss things like that with them. If they in time notice, that whatever you experience in the realm of BDSM is good for you, they hopefully will come to terms with it.

Change your Therapeut, as someone wrote when they have a positionlike that, they will not change it.

For myself, i know for sure that some of the things i do and some of the things i do not do concerning SM are closely linked to the abuse. I had a hard time coming to terms with being turned on and phantasize about things that had similarities with my past. But i made it through. I also experienced flashbacks, something i wrote about in another thread.

It is absolutely important, to tell everybody with whom you do something BDSMish that you was sexually abused, because flashbacks can happen anytime and ít is safer for you and the other person, if the other person has an idea what is happening.

I am glad that you found in your adoptive parents, people who really care about you.

Morgaine289

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