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RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/1/2008 1:06:51 PM   
servantforuse


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As usual only the attorneys for all sides made money when Ma Bell was brioken up. That suit was filed in 1974 and it was settled in 1984. The era of the 'Baby Bells' then started. Now we are back to the beginning. I started for at&t and retired from at&t working for 5 different Bells in between...

(in reply to servantforuse)
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RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/1/2008 1:41:35 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Evility

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terrah
Some of you may know from being a bit older that the government broke up AT&T because of their profit margins and the fact they were giants making and breaking others.


Nice revisionist history. The most asinine thing that the justice department ever did involved the divestiture of Ma Bell. They gutted the greatest research and development laboratory in the history of mankind. You need to read "The Rape OF Ma Bell" sometime so that at least you can get your facts straight.


Well, except for the tone, generally yes--and no, as we're interwining two different issues here.

Break up of Ma Bell, yes, followed their almost insane insistence on what they controlled (extensions in another room in your home, for example). And yes, that allowed new companies to gain footholds---but we also need to add in the deregulation of the industry in the 1980s. Used to be you picked up the phone, dialed a number, even long distance, done, and affordably. Now the cost is much more, the service far less, and you need to dial a crap load of numbers to use the service you supposedly get to choose (I have three phone bills each month, for example--not counting my Internet!). On the other hand, it did spark quality improvements such as fiber optics.

Airlines went through a similar change--higher prices, worse service, and a few low cost regional carriers as a result of 1980s deregulation.

Markets can be helpful--but they aren't perfect for every commodity. Unfortunately, wishful thinking and short-term cost-cutting has fueled our current situation--including inadequate oversight of the mortgage markets (repeating the Savings & Loan mistake of the 1980s).

Deregulation can, in theory, free markets to expand and produce better goods at lower prices---if we live entirely in Adam Smith's 18th century agrarian society. But deregulation can also allow excesses and manipulation (which free markets encourage)--just as breakups can either pull apart monopolies or institutionalize diseconomies of scale.

You are right about Bell Labs' research prowess, of course.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 8/1/2008 1:58:55 PM >

(in reply to Evility)
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RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/1/2008 1:56:04 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

The people who run the oil companies are hired for one reason and one reason only. To make money for the shareholders who OWN the company. They are not running a charity to give the profits away. If they don't run a profitable company the investors go elsewhere with their money and they get fired..


Now lets just say a new CEO steps in...dressed appropriately in sexy panties and bra... and says...Hello boys...lets try something new...lets charge a significant amount less for our product...we will more then make it up in volume...people will flock to our stations and love us...we will grab a huge share of the market and come out better in the end!...Oh my I just about came in my panties.

Damn and maybe just maybe we can make as much or more money and help the consumer out.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/1/2008 2:19:35 PM >

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RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/1/2008 3:18:49 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: Evility

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terrah
Some of you may know from being a bit older that the government broke up AT&T because of their profit margins and the fact they were giants making and breaking others.


Nice revisionist history. The most asinine thing that the justice department ever did involved the divestiture of Ma Bell. They gutted the greatest research and development laboratory in the history of mankind. You need to read "The Rape OF Ma Bell" sometime so that at least you can get your facts straight.


Well, except for the tone, generally yes--and no, as we're interwining two different issues here.

Used to be you picked up the phone, dialed a number, even long distance, done, and affordably. Now the cost is much more, the service far less, and you need to dial a crap load of numbers to use the service you supposedly get to choose


Huh?

No way. Especially the "affordable" long distance.

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

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RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/1/2008 3:36:22 PM   
TieNTeas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ravenous

in russia, putin took over privately held energy companies and that move was effective yet brutal. (he jailed a billionaire owner to get him out of the way while he gutted the company) we have a free market economy. the government can't force a company to hand over its' profits, nor tell them what to do with it.  the only thing consumers can do is not to buy the company's product or services. the thing that freaks me out is "how come you are just noticing the outrageous profits now?" they have been pulling in billions of profit per quarter for YEARS. 
And since the Russian government (and other nations) re-nationalized the oil companies, production has gone down.  Is that really what you want?



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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/1/2008 3:47:46 PM   
TieNTeas


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Just an interesting comparison:
Apple (AAPL) Profit Margin (ttm):14.94%
Google (GOOG) Profit Margin (ttm):24.63%
Exxon Mobil (XOM) Profit Margin (ttm):10.85%
AT&T (T)  Profit Margin (ttm):11.00%
Source Yahoo Finance

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/1/2008 3:57:01 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: Evility

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terrah
Some of you may know from being a bit older that the government broke up AT&T because of their profit margins and the fact they were giants making and breaking others.


Nice revisionist history. The most asinine thing that the justice department ever did involved the divestiture of Ma Bell. They gutted the greatest research and development laboratory in the history of mankind. You need to read "The Rape OF Ma Bell" sometime so that at least you can get your facts straight.


Well, except for the tone, generally yes--and no, as we're interwining two different issues here.

Used to be you picked up the phone, dialed a number, even long distance, done, and affordably. Now the cost is much more, the service far less, and you need to dial a crap load of numbers to use the service you supposedly get to choose


Huh?

No way. Especially the "affordable" long distance.

Firm



I'm pleased phone service is so inexpensive where you live. I wish it were here.

I also wish I could just dial directory assistance without being told that the store down the street that's been here for 50 years has no number because the computer operator in India doesn't have that data.

But it matters little, I suppose, since people have been persuaded they need much more expensive cell phone service instead.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 8/1/2008 4:06:19 PM >

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/1/2008 4:10:33 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I'm pleased phone service is so inexpensive where you live. I wish it were here.

I also wish I could just dial directory assistance without being told that the store down the street that's been here for 50 years has no number because the computer operator in India doesn't have that data.

But it matters little, I suppose, since people have been persuased they need much more expensive cell phone service instead.


Yellow Book

Switchboard

and, best of all ....

Google

For your directory assistance needs.

As far as what you are paying ... I dispute that you are paying more, per phone, than you were pre-breakup days.

Perhaps it's that you have a home land-land phone, paying for DSL through your local phone company, a personal cell phone, a business cell phone, one for your SO, and a couple for the kids?

Yeah, add texting and internet service to all those phones, I'd suppose your bills now are higher.

But it's not just a simple land-line voice phone that you are paying for anymore either.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/1/2008 4:23:32 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TieNTeas

Just an interesting comparison:
Apple (AAPL) Profit Margin (ttm):14.94%
Google (GOOG) Profit Margin (ttm):24.63%
Exxon Mobil (XOM) Profit Margin (ttm):10.85%
AT&T (T)  Profit Margin (ttm):11.00%
Source Yahoo Finance


Not real interesting...and misleading.

I buy a computer once every 5 years or less...if I had to I could get along without an Apple...so could the country
Google...who really needs it...Not the country
AT&T...I think I could do without my mobile phone in a pinch...anyway their profits will soon be gone with the ruling in California.

Can't do without fuel...neither can most of America.

10.85%...which is a crap figure anyway...of many many many many billions is a lot more the 24% of less then 1/100th, just guessing, of that value.

Butch 

< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/1/2008 5:02:24 PM >

(in reply to TieNTeas)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/1/2008 5:15:07 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I'm pleased phone service is so inexpensive where you live. I wish it were here.

I also wish I could just dial directory assistance without being told that the store down the street that's been here for 50 years has no number because the computer operator in India doesn't have that data.

But it matters little, I suppose, since people have been persuased they need much more expensive cell phone service instead.


Yellow Book

Switchboard

and, best of all ....

Google

For your directory assistance needs.

As far as what you are paying ... I dispute that you are paying more, per phone, than you were pre-breakup days.

Perhaps it's that you have a home land-land phone, paying for DSL through your local phone company, a personal cell phone, a business cell phone, one for your SO, and a couple for the kids?

Yeah, add texting and internet service to all those phones, I'd suppose your bills now are higher.

But it's not just a simple land-line voice phone that you are paying for anymore either.

Firm


I'm wondering how you can dispute my bills--but whatever.

I don't have a cell phone. I don't even have DSL. It is indeed "just a simple land-line voice phone" I'm paying for now. And as I already indicated, I didn't include Internet expenses in my comparisons.

I do live in a rural area. Perhaps that's the difference.

Or perhaps your memory is short. And perhaps you've forgotten the role of inflation---I remember gasoline at 25 and 9/10ths a gallon....at Esso.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 8/1/2008 5:16:21 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/1/2008 7:38:22 PM   
servantforuse


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To kdsub.. What ruling in California will ruin the profits for at&t???? Living in Milwaukee I need to be educated... I do think that at&t probably has more lawyers and more money than the California taxpayers want to fork out...

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/1/2008 8:05:39 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

To kdsub.. What ruling in California will ruin the profits for at&t???? Living in Milwaukee I need to be educated... I do think that at&t probably has more lawyers and more money than the California taxpayers want to fork out...


There was already a ruling that is is illegal to charge early termination fees...they also ruled that already collected fees would have to be returned.

If it stands it will be just a short time and the elected officials of all states will be forced by users to have the law changed in their states.

Sure the industry will just charge more for phones and service but they will take a big immediate hit in profits.

Butch

(in reply to servantforuse)
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RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/1/2008 8:12:34 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I'm wondering how you can dispute my bills--but whatever.

I don't have a cell phone. I don't even have DSL. It is indeed "just a simple land-line voice phone" I'm paying for now. And as I already indicated, I didn't include Internet expenses in my comparisons.

I do live in a rural area. Perhaps that's the difference.

Or perhaps your memory is short. And perhaps you've forgotten the role of inflation---I remember gasoline at 25 and 9/10ths a gallon....at Esso.


Perhaps living in a rural area makes a difference for you, I don't know.

However, everywhere else:

***

The Telecom Act Turns Four
Office of Plans and Policy*
Federal Communications Commission
February 8, 2000
William E. Kennard, Chairman

Prices for wireless and long distance telephone service have fallen dramatically over the past years. Long distance prices (international and domestic), as approximated by average revenue per minute, have fallen by 34 percent since 1993 (Figure 4). For residential consumers, domestic long distance prices relative to other goods and services have fallen by 10 percent since 1993 (Figure 5). New calling plans now offer consumers long distance rates of only 5 cents per minute. International long distance prices have fallen by more than half since 1993. Mobile prices have fallen by 35 percent since 1993, and average monthly local bills have dropped by $30 – from $70 in 1993 to $40 in 1999 (Figure 6).


***


The Race For Local Competition: A Long Distance Run, Not A Sprint

JOEL I. KLEIN
Assistant Attorney General
Antitrust Division
U.S. Department of Justice
Washington, D.C.
November 5, 1997

As a result of the efforts to open up the long distance market, competitors have increasingly entered that market and prices have fallen dramatically -- on average, consumers now pay 60% less, adjusted for inflation, than they did when AT&T was broken up in 1984.(3) Consumers today have a choice of literally scores of long distance providers, each with different options and offerings. And AT&T has been forced to compete for its customers, losing forty percent of its market share since 1980, and now offering many consumers a-dime-a-minute long distance phone calls.

***

Deregulation of Long Distance Telecommunications: Implications For Electric Utilities.


By Phelps, Janet K.
Publication: Bulletin (Northwest Public Power Association)
Date: Monday, November 1 1999

AT&T functioned as a regulated national monopoly for decades until the early 1980's. While AT&T faced several challenges from MCI and the Justice Department in the late sixties and early seventies, the major changes in the industry came in 1984 when two significant events took place. In 1984 AT&T split into seven regional holding companies (the "Baby Bells") and one long distance carrier (AT&T), and the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) implemented access charges for long distance service, creating a "level playing field" for competitors in the market for long distance telecommunications.

Deregulation resulted in several changes in the industry, some of which are especially relevant to the electric utility industry.

Prices declined and converged. Real (inflation-adjusted) rates for daytime business calls are shown in Figure 1; residential rates were similar. In 1983, prior to AT&T divestiture, AT&T'S average long distance rates exceeded both Sprint's and MCI's average rates by 20 percent. The gap narrowed considerably in 1984, when AT&T's rates exceeded MCI's rates by only 8 percent and Sprint's by 5 percent. By 1987 all three carriers had rates that were virtually equal. Rates continued to be very competitive thereafter.

***


I suppose you can find some more current cites, but I'm not going to put anymore time into this issue.

Firm





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RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/1/2008 8:13:34 PM   
servantforuse


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There will be no hit in profits. The amount that might have to be given back is minimal and will have no consequence in at&t's bottom line..Let me know how much you get back,,It might be a couple of dollars given as a credit on your next bill...

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/1/2008 9:21:29 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

There will be no hit in profits. The amount that might have to be given back is minimal and will have no consequence in at&t's bottom line..Let me know how much you get back,,It might be a couple of dollars given as a credit on your next bill...


You could be right it is a long way from over but they are talking a lot of money...check THIS out.

Butch

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/1/2008 11:09:30 PM   
BrokenSaint


Posts: 301
Joined: 10/30/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: housesub4you

$300-$700

mine just went to $1200 for 3 people with BCBS through an employer

Holy fucking christ. That is insane. Is that like...everything? Also...that's...per...month?
I think I end up paying for my medical around 20$ every 2 weeks or something akin to that. Vision is really cheap too, dental actually costs more than everything else on mine. Of course it's only for me.


_____________________________

In the name of progress,
In the name of madness
Drum beats faster
Crowd shouts louder
and chaos replaces order
VnV Nation - Nemesis

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/2/2008 6:21:40 AM   
happypervert


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From: Scranton, PA
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It's time for a history lesson.

Oil prices also shot up in 1970's when OPEC reduced the supply -- I recall the "high" price back then of about $40/bbl. People bitched then about excess oil company profits; they never considered that those profits got plowed back into exploration so the oil companies could find more oil and make more money, as well as research into alternative energy sources such as geothermal, solar, etc.

The result was that they found a lot of oil, supply increased and prices dropped to about $10/bbl through the 1990's.

Point: If you want to "do" something about these excess profits, the result will be a reduction in the investment to find new energy sources and you'll end up prolonging the high prices you pay. So just how smart is that?

But these things take time; the infrastructure such as drill rigs needs to be rebuilt and more geoscientists need to be trained. But it will happen again -- the forces of economics work!

< Message edited by happypervert -- 8/2/2008 6:24:44 AM >


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RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/2/2008 6:29:54 AM   
DarkSteven


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I don't get any of it.

GOP answer is to drill.  Dem answer is to tax the oil companies.

For God's sake, the problem is NOT that the oil companies are making a huge profit.  The problem is that they are an oligopoly and have seentially no competition.

Just start an antitrust investigation.  Although, since the DOJ found MicroSoft innocent of manipulating the market (to be fair, the original finding was under Clinton although IIRC the appeal was denied under Bush), I have little faith that the oil comnpanies would be held to be noncompetitive.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/2/2008 8:12:10 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
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From: Central Pennsylvania
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We are all the frog in the pot- with the heat turn up.

What can you do?  BUy a pack of socks and patio block.  Why?  $4 a gallon gas is not sustainable for the commerce as we know it.  It just isnt. Some things today are actually a bargain....  you wont see some products anymore or they will be over priced.  Mark my words.

We are all rats in a cage. Those who can get by with less will thrive. Those who need everything will "suffer".

So buy a pack of socks- buy things that you will consume.  But necesisties not frivolous.

Congress has had many "hearings"  - it would be funner to watch those old men masterbate then to acrimoneouse LIE and pomp when big oil owns them.

I submit that if these were not combined companies the money  would not be as big.  so exxon is really more like 12-30 companies.

Some of the run up is the olympics in China.  I am hoping they see that they "like" fresh air in Bijing and rethink the curent model

Furthermore- wait for act 2.   thats when ruinng your house 3x its cost for heat and electric.  THAT cost will stay with us long after prices come down.

what to do?   get efficient.      get strategic.




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RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/2/2008 9:37:39 AM   
nejisty


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What about all the monopolies that are being allowed today?  Satellite radio, Phone companies, Airlines just to name a few.    

nejisty

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