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RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/2/2008 10:09:19 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		baseball- another monopolly.

(in reply to nejisty)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/2/2008 11:23:39 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terrah

Recently on the news, I heard about Exxon's profit for the last 3 months. It's profitted 11.3 billion dollars. I was absolutely taken aback by this. So they can make that much and the government is doing nothing about it??


The government should not be involved in it. The laws on corporations, and their ability to have the rights of a person need to be changed though.

quote:


What is there to do? Suggestions!! That's what I need. Perhaps getting people together and going down to the Corporate Headquarters to picket them for what they are doing not only to the small guy who can't buy gas, but the airlines, the busses, the trucking industry, all the facets they are hurting by blantantly rising the cost of fuel to outstanding limits when they are raping the pocketbooks of the American people.


The government does need to assist in alternative fuel development, and not just the token bulklshit that is going on right now. While we are on oil though, we need to drill our own rather than send 200 billion plus dollars out of the country, and out of our economy. The price of gas is pretty set by the stock market and the price of oil. Maybe the speculators need to be looked into, as Tim suggested.

quote:


Are we going to stand for this? I say no.. not just no, but hell no. I encourage everyone to write an email to them and tell them and the other giants to stop it now!
http://www.exxonmobil.com/corporate/
http://www.shell.com/

They are easy enough to look up! I am so angry about this!


Why be angry at the oil companies, they are doing as any business would in that situation. The government needs to stay out. The government does not handle things very well, and there is always huge amounts of waste involved. The government has very little accountability, so why place trust there. Not to mention, we the citizens need to take some accountability in this and stop looking to the government as some kind of nanny to take care of our problems.

quote:


Some of you may know from being a bit older that the government broke up AT&T because of their profit margins and the fact they were giants making and breaking others. Do you see this happening to the gas producers? I don't. I want to know how much stock Bush or others have in this company and other oil companies who allow this to go on uchecked. I want to know that something in being done about this outrageous profit margins they are raping the people of who are just trying to exist in this world to feed their families and going back and forth to work.


That break up was not all rosy. Look how the government handled it, and you want them to handle oil companies the same way? Quality and supply will suffer. Take any business more and they are just going to increase price to cover the cost of doing business. So an increase in taxes just takes it out of everyone else's pocket.

quote:


When we sit and do nothing, nothing happens. Please take the time to give suggestions as to what you think we can all do to prevent this from continuing on.

I wish you well

Terrah


Politicians on both sides of the isle have assisted in putting all mega corps in the US, in charge. The laws on how a corp gains the same rights as a citizen for purposes of contributions, and putting money into politicians pockets need to be changed. take the power of all the corporations away from being able to have a monopoly on political influence, and then hold the politicians accountable.

Someone made the comment about Obama not accept donations from Oil Companies, and they are correct, but he still gains support and money in differt ways.

"Obama: I don’t take money from oil companies or Washington lobbyists, and I won’t let them block change anymore. "

"Obama has, however, accepted more than $213,000 in contributions from individuals who work for, or whose spouses work for, companies in the oil and gas industry, according to the Center for Responsive Politics. That's not as much as Sen. Hillary Clinton, who has received more than $306,000 in donations from people tied to the industry, but it's still a substantial amount. "

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obamas_oil_spill.html

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(in reply to Terrah)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/2/2008 11:37:31 AM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline
quote:

Are we going to stand for this? I say no.. not just no, but hell no. I encourage everyone to write an email to them and tell them and the other giants to stop it now!


I'm sure they will pay a lot of attention. 

quote:

Some of you may know from being a bit older that the government broke up AT&T because of their profit margins and the fact they were giants making and breaking others. Do you see this happening to the gas producers? I don't.  


It's already happened.  What do you think happened to Standard Oil? 

(in reply to Terrah)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/2/2008 12:12:58 PM   
purelea2003


Posts: 78
Joined: 12/12/2005
Status: offline 		The high gas and oil prices in the US are the result of the Bush Administration's attempt to force the opening of protected areas for drilling. His buddies don't have enough and he wants to see they have more before he leaves office. Oh I know lots of you are laughing at that but just because it looks like a conspiracy doesn't mean it's not one. 

I've heard it isn't about the drilling - it's about the refining capacity anyway. No new refinery has been built since 1976. Now, there's a place they could put some of those profits. Just don't put the thing in my backyard, right?

_____________________________

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"There are two ways of exerting one's strength: one is pushing down, the other is pulling up." - Booker T Washington

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/2/2008 1:50:24 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		To get back to Evil's post. You said a mouthful.

In every monitor, every PC, every cellphone, hell even regular phones now there are millions of devices known as transistors. They are inside the IC chips that make these things work.

How many guesses do you want as to who invented it ? - Bell Labs. Back in 1953.  I was there when transistors first appeared in consumer electronics equipment. There used to be none, and then one, and then a few, and now millions. Can you imagine what it would be like if one company held a solid patent for that ? Millions of transistors times millions of TVs, PC monitors, all that. Even a penny each would give them the wealth to buy and sell any government in the world. They would make Bill Gates look like some asshiole on welfare, really.

They did not patent it. I would not have shared it with the world. And if I invented something I would probably not share it with the world. I know how to build a fusion cannon, but I won't tell anyone how to do it. This world is too fucked up for that. And a fusion cannon is so simple to do. But you are propelling a mini sun somewhere, and the scorched Earth policy could become reality.

I studied fusion reactors in detail, I was very interested in the subject, and this is back from before I was on the internet. On the CRWU BBS I found Robert Heeter, a professor there, and downloaded everything he had. It took a while on wire, luckily it was mostly text. I still have it.

Now, I only share with friends. You are. Anything I know at this time is at your disposal, might not all be right, but pretty good. But the world ? No fucking way. If Bell Labs had been granted a patent for the transistor, they would be the government of the world.

But the fact still remains that we don't work for nothing. They invented the transistor because they needed it. (read that part twice) The capacity of the phone co was outpaced by demand, and there was a time when there were no transistors in phones, in fact even at the phone co !

So we are torn between that desire to give to the world, and that car payment. This is not going to change.

T

(in reply to purelea2003)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/4/2008 9:08:16 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: nejisty

What about all the monopolies that are being allowed today?  Satellite radio, Phone companies, Airlines just to name a few.    

nejisty


My favorite is that I may pay LD charges to call someone---who ALSO has to pay for the minutes of the conversation.

Perhaps all the people near the lines or within the microwave transmission should also be asked to pay.

Makes the old AT&T nonsense about the extension in the next room of your home pale by comparison.

And they have convinced people they get more for less. Astounding!

(in reply to nejisty)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/4/2008 10:37:05 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven


For God's sake, the problem is NOT that the oil companies are making a huge profit.  The problem is that they are an oligopoly and have seentially no competition.


...this is an interesting point. Where would a theoretical competition for the oil industry come from? Another oil company? Surely the best competition for them would have to come from a whole new sector. Alternative energy companies. The problem there is that the oil companies have a massive head start. The regulatory framework inevitably favours them, in much the same way that the incumbant in any election has a significent advantage.

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/4/2008 1:15:02 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		kd still doesn't get the idea of profit vs profit marrgin I see. Still claimes it's a crap figure even though accounting practices world wide recognize it as THE FAIREST way to compare the profitability of a company vs another.

Remember to make that $11. billion they invested/ spent $110 billion. (based on 10% rounded off profit margin).
For every single dollar they spent they made one dime. The gross profit is extream because the gross investment is extream.
They spent One Hundred Ten Billion dollars and had a profit of Eleven Billion dollars.



(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/4/2008 4:53:58 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Archer we had this conversation on past threads... we just have to agree to disagree..you have yet to show me answers that make sense..and certainly none to cover past profit margins  when the cost of oil was 1/10th the cost of today let alone a month ago.

As we discussed before someone is hiding profits..I don't claim to know who and where along the production chain but someone.

I also believe, without proof , but my right to believe as I please ..that oil producers are behind the wild eratic speculation on oil futures by spreading false information on demand and shortages..to me it is the only explanation that makes any sense at all. I could of course be all hot air on this point but not on someone hiding profit.

Butch



< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/4/2008 4:55:19 PM >

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/5/2008 11:07:30 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		I provided you with the statistic to examine and in some links 10 years worth of profit margin data, wasn't enough guess I need figures back till the begining of Standard Oil.
The fact that these numbers are filed on public legal documents subjecting any falsification proven to federal criminal charges wasn't enough.

Like it or not Profit Margin not gross profit is THE STANDARD to compare how well/efficient a company is doing at making a profit.

It's not hidden profit just because you don't recognize where to look for it. (hint again nationalized oil companies of OPEC and Speculators)

The supply aspect of the market is well established as being more demand than supply we have remained able to buy gasoline because we have the economy to support $4 a gallon while China and India are less able to do so at the moment.
Believe it that if the US couldn't afford $4 a gallon for gas then India and China would be the ones without lines at the stations while we waited in line hopeing they wouldn't run out.

World wide demand and world wide supply (current production) are almost equal right now, that makes the price stable only so long as nothing happens to production anywhere in the entire world. Threats to production exist and as such folks are speculating that something will happen to reduce available production. As each new threat comes into play rice rises as each old threat to production eases off prices drop.

BTW silver lining to the high price of gasoline is it saved several thousand lives this summer.
So to those who have ever used the cliche "If it saves one life it will be worth it" maybe you can reconsider it now?
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/PainAtThePump/wireStory?id=5356476



(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/5/2008 1:04:26 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Archer as I posted before even the Saudis don't believe the the cost of oil is justified in the market...as you keep telling me. I think I would believe them rather than you.

Here is a quote from them.."

"The increase in prices isn't justified in terms of market fundamentals," the Saudi government said in a statement after a cabinet meeting in Jeddah".

PS ... You are wrong about China and their ability to absorb $4 a gallon... they are...but their government is subsidizing the fuel costs. The ability for them to subsidize and still have an expanding economy says a lot about their economic power.
Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/5/2008 1:09:33 PM >

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/5/2008 1:17:23 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		You're going to post your arguments again I'm gonna post mine.
The fact that you can't grasp the idea of profit margin tells me alot.
I retorted against your Saudi crap last time with the report from the International Energy Agency. A larger international group with no direct financial interest. (Unlike the Saudi prince). So here it is again.

http://omrpublic.iea.org/

pared down the charts at right of page tell you the main point
World Oil Demand 88 billion barrels / day
World Oil Supply 87 billion barrels / day


PS the thought was incomplete and maybe lacked detail the fact is China can absorb a smaller amount of $4 gas than we can.

US consumes about 20 million barrels a day
China consumes about 6.5 million barrels a day

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_oil_con-energy-oil-consumption







< Message edited by Archer -- 8/5/2008 1:29:52 PM >

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/5/2008 1:27:49 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Profit margins are not my argument and never was...you can't seem to understand that... I just don't see a basic reasonable relation to the extreme rise in the cost of oil...availability of the product...and reported profits.

Something is not right


(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/5/2008 6:12:00 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven


For God's sake, the problem is NOT that the oil companies are making a huge profit.  The problem is that they are an oligopoly and have seentially no competition.


...this is an interesting point. Where would a theoretical competition for the oil industry come from? Another oil company? Surely the best competition for them would have to come from a whole new sector. Alternative energy companies. The problem there is that the oil companies have a massive head start. The regulatory framework inevitably favours them, in much the same way that the incumbant in any election has a significent advantage.


Remember when Microsoft was facing antitrust?  The nuclear solution would have been to break up the company, similar to the baby Bells.

Simply break the oil companies up into littler oil companies, and split the infrastructure between them.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/5/2008 6:23:52 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nejisty

What about all the monopolies that are being allowed today?  Satellite radio, Phone companies, Airlines just to name a few.    

nejisty


No.

A MONOPOLY is a SINGLE company which supplies a good or service.  An OLIGOPOLY or CARTEL is several companies that supply a good or service, not enough to provide genuine competition.

Satellite radio - we have Sirius and XM, a duopoly.  They are attempting to merge, and part of their justification for so doing is that their service is provided by terrestrial radio as well as other music devices such as iPods.

Phone companies - we have AT&T, Verizon, T Mobile, Virgin Mobile, and Sprint off the top of my head for cell service, and Qwest and AT&T for landlines.  That's not to mention VOIP such as Vonage and the cable companies such as Comcast that are beginning to offer phone service.  Highly competitve environment and Sprint is hurting,

Airlines - Several big players and a host of smaller ones, in the US alone, and dozens of overseas airlines.

One of the aspects of an oligopoly or monopoly is that they have major control over market pricing, thus making very healthy profit margins.  Think oil companies or MicroSoft.  The fact that the airlines are hurting so badly, as well as the phone companies, is a sign that they are not monopolies and cannot set market prices.




_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to nejisty)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/5/2008 9:30:59 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		I think when they use outdated laws to fix new problems, it is not always effective. The breakup of ATT was because of the Sherman Antitrust Act. Anyone care to mention how old that is ? It was enacted when there was competition in the railroad business. However one company, which I won't name, purposely operated at a loss to put competitors out of business.

So let me ask you this, how much competition do you see in the railroad business now ? Then come Conrail, it's like the pieces of the industry clumped together again. And ATT, I got the same phone co for so many years I can't even remember, and I got their DSL, why is the email at sbcglobal dot com ? GLOBAL ? Yes they broke up the monopolies alright. And basically gave them a chance to regroup. That's all that really happened. You remember what BP stands for ? That used to be Standard Oil, their main offices were in Cleveland IIRC, and when they messed with them it basically resulted in a name change. (and a move)

These lawyers who work for these companies are not stupid. OK, BP has less of a percentage of company owned gas stations than Standard Oil did, big deal. That was worth millions of dollars in lawsuits wasn't it ? And you know who paid for it, WE DID.

What I am about to say is going to seem out of character for me. But it is really one of the very few solutions. Don't break up trusts, just take them over. Now it's obvious that this cannot work under business as usual for the government. Though it might not come specifically under the rights granted the government as per the Constitution, a case can be made for it. They have twisted it around alot more than I am about to, believe me.

Congress is charged with issuing money and regulating the value thereof. And I believe that it says CONGRESS. Not the senate, not the President, not Joe Blow in some private corporation like we have now. Now that they have allowed the authourity to be usurped by a private corporation, they only have so many options with which to "regulate the value thereof"

So congress and congress only takes control of any and all companies that are legally defined as "utilites". There are 435 of them therefore their constituencies are small enough that we do have a chance to do something. The legal definition would be anything considered essential to the economy. This would apply to the comglomerates, big companies, not your local outlet. This does not affect the Mom and Pop grocery at the corner, but it does affect their suppliers.

They already regulate alot of things to death, so why not ? And it has been brought up that everything a company has to pay out comes from the customer. That would include taxes and fines would it not ?

In the end, what is the result ? Now if it can be managed, and really we need power over who is in charge, so it becomes another electable office. But no pony show like we have today. Instead of a board of directors charged with the task of making as much money as possible, they are charged with the duty to run the operation as frugally as possible.

They would be rated for their ability to run it efficiently and eliminate waste, rather than quarterly profits.

See right now the oil companies own the oil. We need it. What if I needed a house and I got the government to force you to sell your's to me at a loss ? Actually that does happen, eminent domain. But if you just nationalize the companies, get over it. They are ours now and will comply with C.A.F.R. guidelines.

It maybe a very small way, but it does give people a voice. Not much of one, but something. Right now we got nothing.

I know this seems out of character for me, but it is true. We do not live in normal times, so normal solutions might not work. The railroads could have easily been nationalized around the time of the Sherman act.

Look at the highway system now and tell me how better off we are. And that is one of the first arms of the federal government to get cut off if I get the big chair. Well, there are still lane lines and certain guidelines and standards. Right now the federal money is extracted from the Citizens, and distributed to who they see fit.

Really nice huh ?

T

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/5/2008 10:15:48 PM   
OTKkindaGirl


Posts: 447
Joined: 12/26/2005
From: NW Arkansas
Status: offline 		it's all part of a greater conspiracy and it isn't just the oil companies and government in on it.  i think you are forgetting an even more ingenious corporation.  that of the auto industry.  i can understand being angry at the swelling prices of oil and gasoline. 

my beef lies with the auto industry.  back in the early 80's when i first learned to drive my parents owned a new japanese car that actually go 43 miles to the gallon.  damn, i wish i still had that car.    

about 10 years ago... the year honestly escapes me, a "source" donated 20K to a university department of engineering and asked that the goal be to get the highest gas mileage possible.  Using a brand new SUV donated by an autoplant, they were able to make a carborator (i believe) that produced an output of 87 miles to the gallon and it was patented immediately.  this vehicle was inadvertantly sold to a consumer.  this consumer went across the US only filling up a couple of times.  When he got back home he took it to the dealership where he had bought it thinking that something was terribly wrong and they immediately gave him another SUV free of charge wiping away all debt of the previous SUV and told him that he was mistakenly sold a prototype.  what happened to the patent?  what happened to the carborator?  the manufacturer bought the patent and destroyed it.  why?  it's all about the money honey.  oh.... one of the engineers...a friend of mine.

i believe that pharmacuetical companies operate the same way.  why cure something when treating the illness creates more revenue than curing it would.  it's a cold cruel world and a sorry fact of life.

_____________________________

~~ lil darlin' ~~
hope



(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/5/2008 11:01:32 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		Sounds like an urban legend to me, sorry.

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to OTKkindaGirl)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/5/2008 11:22:47 PM   
OTKkindaGirl


Posts: 447
Joined: 12/26/2005
From: NW Arkansas
Status: offline 		we have the capability, the technology to do a lot of things, what is so difficult to believe about it?  i suppose the hydrogen cars that they are spending 22 billion on is just an urban legend too. 

if you knew my friend i guess you'd call him a liar to his face but i know him and he has no reason to lie about it. 

if it can be thought of, it can be done. 

_____________________________

~~ lil darlin' ~~
hope



(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: I'm pissed as hell! Not going to take it anymore - 8/5/2008 11:59:47 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OTKkindaGirl

if you knew my friend i guess you'd call him a liar to his face but i know him and he has no reason to lie about it.

No, just a story-teller or a confabulator.


quote:

ORIGINAL: OTKkindaGirl

if it can be thought of, it can be done. 

I will win the lottery ... I will win the lottery ... I will win the lottery ...


quote:

ORIGINAL: OTKkindaGirl

we have the capability, the technology to do a lot of things, what is so difficult to believe about it?  i suppose the hydrogen cars that they are spending 22 billion on is just an urban legend too.


Nobody's Fuel (Snope's)



The cost to develop a hydrogen car isn't 22 billion.  One of the estimates to emplace all the infrastructure (read gas (hydrogen) stations is about 20 billion for the US.

Hydrogen Infrastructure.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to OTKkindaGirl)
Profile   Post #: 60
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