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RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck - 8/7/2008 11:55:35 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

PUMA isn't the only organization though... and I would dare say they aren't Republicans in Dem's clothing http://justsaynodeal.com/index2.html  Just scroll down the list on the right side of the page...

Even if the members of these organizations don't vote for McCain, many of them are saying there is no way they will vote for Obama. 

And I can post just as many organizations of republicans that support Obama. Wait a minute... I already did that.
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2015951

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck - 8/8/2008 12:05:48 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...nope, i have no example of lost intel, but i was only trying to show it as a plausible consequence, not a documented one. Finding such documentation would only be possible with hindsight, and such evidence would be sketchy anyway.

Certainly it's pausible concern.  It's a matter of weighing the costs, and the benefits of any foreign policy.  You can't please everyone, all the time.


quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

i think you may be mistaken when you characterise those countries who may withdraw some support as 'globally inconsequential'. Even a globally inconsequential country, say the Lebanon, may become highly important regionally......and US foreign policy, like all countries, is contingent on the balance of forces at both a global and regional level.

Excellent point.


quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

The muscular type of foreign policy you describe seems to me to be a short term one. In the long term, consensus and negotiation are more stable than conflict and intimidation. In the long term, a less muscular foreign policy may serve US interests better.....

In theory, I don't disagree with you.  Consensus and negotiation are more stable ... in a world order that allows them to be effective.

I think perhaps that you (and others, even more so) mistake "being muscular" (which I'll have to define in detail very soon) with being totally unreasonable and immune to reason and negotiation.  It's not. It's the only thing that will get some leaders, and some nations to actually negotiate in good faith.

We in the West tend to forget that other cultures and other nations do not have the same cultural imperatives or beliefs that we do.  For some, you only negotiate in lieu of surrender or when you do not have the ability to force your will. 

One of the reasons (I believe) that the US and the West is in it's current situation was the growing impression that neither side of the Atlantic had the stomach to play in "their turf", or were willing to spend the national treasure and blood to back up our "ideals" and rhetoric.

"They" thought we were bluffing.  So some of "them" decided to call our bluff.

Now, after Bush, any country or group that tries to calculate the possibilities, faces a much higher level of uncertainty.

It was this (I believe) that got North Korea to he negotiating table.

Uncertainty is the core of deterrence, and an absolute requirement for effective negotiations.

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

However, all this argument is based on my perception of the balances involved. Your perception, based on your own experience, is clearly different. i suppose, as a short hand, you could characterise our positions as old world and new world......only time will tell which of us is the more correct.......


Very true.  I suspect they could even be classified as cultural differences, and I suspect that they will worsen over time.

Firm


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Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck - 8/8/2008 12:06:35 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Something tells me that come November Democrats are going to be kicking themselves for not nominating Hillary Clinton.

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(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck - 8/8/2008 12:11:22 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Well, you can cherrypick polls and ignore all the ones that don't give the results you'd like, or you can look at hundreds of polls nationwide and get a larger picture:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/poll-tracker.htm

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Gallup Daily: Race Tied at 44%

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck - 8/8/2008 12:17:32 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Very true.  I suspect they could even be classified as cultural differences, and I suspect that they will worsen over time.




......i enjoyed the rest of your reply, and i look forward to a more detailed description of a muscular foreign policy, but as a committed multi-culturalist i take issue with your last point. Heh........

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck - 8/8/2008 12:17:46 AM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Something tells me that come November Democrats are going to be kicking themselves for not nominating Hillary Clinton.


Most of the folks I talk to back home, feel that something big is going to pop in Sept. after the nomination is already locked in.  Mind you these are die hard life long Democrats from the southside of Chicago.  I was talking to my old precinct captain (and neighbor) over the weekend, and he said "I think the Republicans are holding back any of the solid ammo they have, until after Obama is locked in,  I have a very bad feeling about what is going to come of it."  Not that his opinion reflects those of the entire party, but I think it has some merit, especially considering the way the RNC has been addressing the "celebrity" more than policy.  Just 3 or 4 weeks until we all find out.


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When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck - 8/8/2008 12:34:54 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

This whole thing is too poorly done to be part of the GOP's dirty tricks campaign but it wouldn't shock me to find some dittoheads involved with this.

Do you ever think of anyone who disagrees with you except in negative and insulting terms?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

As to you not liking me calling right wingers right wingers that's just too bad. I'll certainly give it due consideration as coming from a man who repeatedly insulted me about something he was in the wrong about and still hasn't manned up and apologized.


I guess I have a couple of comments about your above paragraph:

1. For someone who self identifies as "liberal" in all the best definitions, you fail utterly to meet the barest definition of the word in your relations with others here on the board, except those who walk in exact lockstep with your thinking.

2.  Perhaps, months ago, I might have been snide or sarcastic to you on a rare occasion, (proof, however, would be appreciated).  In the last several months since Mod 11 has done such a yeomen's  job of  cleaning up the forums,  I will say it is  highly unlikely that you'll find anything in my posts that even slightly could be considered anything other than a calm disagreement.

Further, you are specifically talking (once again) about the economics thread (it's the economy, stupid......).

You seem to be confabulating, or confusing me and my words with something or someone else. Perhaps I am representative of all the people you detest, or you are deep in projection, I dunno.  I'm not a licensed psychologist, and have no training to understand your viewpoint on this issue.

What I do think is that you could not stand to be disagreed with, and proven wrong several times in a row, and that offended you, and you are lashing out at me.

But my conscience is clear.  I've reread the thread several times, and I invite anyone to do likewise and point out to me anywhere I was personally insulting to any poster in the thread, but most especially to you.

I wouldn't want to unwillingly involve anyone else in this issue between us, but I am willing to let us jointly choose any respectable poster to render a verdict, if you wish to carry it that far.  Although I think this is totally unnecessary.  If you can quote a single inflammatory or personally insulting remark from me to you on that thread, I'd be more than willing to apologize to you.

You turn.

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 8/8/2008 12:43:34 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck - 8/8/2008 12:40:42 AM   
Thadius


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Joined: 10/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Well, you can cherrypick polls and ignore all the ones that don't give the results you'd like, or you can look at hundreds of polls nationwide and get a larger picture:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/poll-tracker.htm

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Gallup Daily: Race Tied at 44%



For getting the overall picture I check regularly with pollser.com and realclearpolitics.com

Pollster (the site that USAtoday uses for their charts) puts the National avg of polls at McCain 43.5 and Obama 45.9 http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/08-us-pres-ge-mvo.php

RCP has the race at McCain 43.3 and Obama 46.9.... which reflects a 5 point loss since July 6th for Obama. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck - 8/8/2008 12:51:01 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

......i enjoyed the rest of your reply, and i look forward to a more detailed description of a muscular foreign policy, but as a committed multi-culturalist i take issue with your last point. Heh........

Alas, it will likely be the weekend before I get a chance to post more in detail.  I hope that cloudboy won't be miffed, as a response to him will require quiet a bit of  effort.

(I seem to have gotten distracted with another line within the thread ... my apologies to both you and cb).

Firm

PS.  We might consider a "multi-culturalism" thread soon.  The last time I got involved deeply in one, I was called all kinds of names! 


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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck - 8/8/2008 6:41:05 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
I wouldn't want to unwillingly involve anyone else in this issue between us, but I am willing to let us jointly choose any respectable poster to render a verdict, if you wish to carry it that far.  Although I think this is totally unnecessary.  If you can quote a single inflammatory or personally insulting remark from me to you on that thread, I'd be more than willing to apologize to you.

quote:

Ken ... seriously ... no insult intended ... do you even read what I write?

The phrase "no insult intended" always means the insult was intended.

I will also note that your whinging that I cut from the above post contained various and sundry attacks against my character. As have many of your posts both in the thread in question, this thread and many other recent threads. I've called you on it on other occasions.

Furthermore you repeatedly insisted you were right and you were factually wrong as I proved.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck - 8/8/2008 7:10:19 AM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

Ken ... seriously ... no insult intended ... do you even read what I write?

The phrase "no insult intended" always means the insult was intended.

I will also note that your whinging that I cut from the above post contained various and sundry attacks against my character. As have many of your posts both in the thread in question, this thread and many other recent threads. I've called you on it on other occasions.

Furthermore you repeatedly insisted you were right and you were factually wrong as I proved.


*shakes head*

My goodness, DomKen... are you really so thin-skinned and insecure that you see insults and attacks when someone simply disagrees with you?

I have doubts that you will believe it, but no matter who is factually correct, you are simply reading things into Firm's posts that are just not there. 

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck - 8/8/2008 11:49:50 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Firmhand, I never studied "foreign affairs" in college, I was a business major but I always liked George Washington's philosophy on the matter.

"We should avoid foreign entanglements."
             -George Washington-

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck - 8/8/2008 11:51:18 AM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

"We should avoid foreign entanglements."
            -George Washington-


Too late.

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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck - 8/8/2008 12:18:38 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Firm
Ken ... seriously ... no insult intended ... do you even read what I write?

The phrase "no insult intended" always means the insult was intended.

I'm sorry, but that is simply projection on your part.    Sometimes words mean exactly what they say.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I will also note that your whinging that I cut from the above post contained various and sundry attacks against my character. As have many of your posts both in the thread in question, this thread and many other recent threads. I've called you on it on other occasions.

I'm not sure what a "whinging" is.  Whining?

You cut "various and sundry attacks against [your] character" out of a post you were going to use to demonstrate those very "various and sundry attacks"?  Then why cut them from your example?  Jesus, man.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Furthermore you repeatedly insisted you were right and you were factually wrong as I proved.

Yup.  Here I think you are on point, and your argument is strong, if you are of the mind set that someone simply disagreeing with you means that they are "insulting"  and "conducting a personal attack".  (And the "proved factually wrong" is very much an erroneous assumption on your part,)

Ok, I seriously doubt that I'm going to reach you on this issue. 

So I will not try.  You just need to learn how to deal with people disagreeing with you, and I'm finished with your juvenile antics (a term which you may indeed find insulting, but is also an accurate observation.)

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck - 8/8/2008 12:45:17 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		whinging, to whinge. Rhymes with singe. As you have surmised it's a sort of highly vocal whine.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck - 8/8/2008 1:30:57 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

whinging, to whinge. Rhymes with singe. As you have surmised it's a sort of highly vocal whine.


Interesting word.  I like to think I know most such English words, but I've got to admit this is a new one on me.

I tried the "define: whinging" Google path originally, and it came up blank, but hit on just "whinge" after you gave me the correct form. 

I guess we can learn something new every day.  

Firm 


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Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck - 8/8/2008 1:37:30 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I guess we can learn something new every day.  




...i fervently hope so

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck - 8/8/2008 2:30:17 PM   
cloudboy


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quote:

You just need to learn how to deal with people disagreeing with you, and I'm finished with your juvenile antics (a term which you may indeed find insulting, but is also an accurate observation.)


Its more manly to just address arguments head-on. There's nothing wrong with a slug-fest. Sometimes that's what it takes to knock the bullshit out of another's poorly held position.

My respect always goes to the poster who stays on point and either wins an argument or admits defeat. In political discussions, this is often a morass.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck - 8/9/2008 12:38:18 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

You just need to learn how to deal with people disagreeing with you, and I'm finished with your juvenile antics (a term which you may indeed find insulting, but is also an accurate observation.)


So

Its more manly to just address arguments head-on. There's nothing wrong with a slug-fest. Sometimes that's what it takes to knock the bullshit out of another's poorly held position.

My respect always goes to the poster who stays on point and either wins an argument or admits defeat. In political discussions, this is often a morass.


Perhaps I don't subscribe to your definition of "manly".

I do take your point, however.

Tthe "discussion" under review wasn't really about politics.  It was about math, and it was about the inability to approach the subject rationally.

There is something to be said for knowing when you are beating your head against a wall for no benefit.  My definition of "manly" includes being mature enough to realize that some discussions  are fruitless, unless you simply enjoy the  drama, and being confident enough to walk away from them, regardless of other's opinions.

My time is more productively spent engaging with people who have the capacity and willingness to engage productively, or at least are fun to banter with.

Firm


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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck - 8/9/2008 5:47:32 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Or perhaps you were wrong and you STILL won't just admit it. Is the average of -0.2 and 1.2 less than or greater than 0.9?

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 100
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