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Do you still see a sub as sub when? - 11/18/2005 6:13:37 AM   
SweetSarijane


Posts: 3788
Joined: 10/7/2005
From: KC area Missouri
Status: offline 		A conversation I had recently with a Dom friend sparked this curiosity. We have talked online for a few months, and I am comfortable enough with him to speak my mind quite openly on things, and generally ask his opinion on whatever comes to mind. I also am comfortable enough to "tweak the tiger's tail" so to speak and just be me. I asked him if he still saw me as submissive even at the times I'm being sassy, mouthy, or teasing him, or pushing his buttons, and the times when I bluntly voice my opinion or view of things, or if to him it made me less submissive. It made me curious to hear from other Doms their views on this. When a sub (your sub or a good friend who is sub) does this, does it change your perception of his/her level of submissiveness, make them seem less submissive? Is it offensive to you?



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The sassy sub who speaks her mind - 11/18/2005 6:19:40 AM   
Jacques1000


Posts: 273
Joined: 10/30/2005
Status: offline 		If the comment is intelligently, assiduously made, and reminds me that I have the privilege of a sassy, sexy submissive, then: NO, not offensive at all :D

For the other examples you gave, it is very context-dependent.

< Message edited by Jacques1000 -- 11/18/2005 7:37:25 AM >

(in reply to SweetSarijane)
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RE: The sassy sub who speaks her mind - 11/18/2005 6:23:56 AM   
dincubus


Posts: 231
Joined: 10/22/2005
From: South Dakota
Status: offline 		Personally, it heightens the experience, because when my sub does push my buttons, it gets my mind working on new and creative ways of doing things. Personally i see myself as more of a sensual dominant, while given my sub's current condition, i cannot inflict pain if she would be open to that. there are also other considerations, i.e. i have to get over that mental block of inflicting pain on someone. at this very moment, you could say it is not my thing.

so to answer the question asked, no it is not offensive when my sub gets sassy.

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RE: The sassy sub who speaks her mind - 11/18/2005 6:25:27 AM   
SirBurd


Posts: 6
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline 		Actually, there are times when I like a li'l brat on my hands, so if she is sassy, there may be some need to administre the appropriate "education" and make it just as playful as her mood. If she is being insolent, then that is an entirely different matter., If she is asking a ton of questions, there may be a point where curiosity can kill the poor little cat, but if her questions are truly the type where she has a hunger to know, then nothing wrong with being inquisitive. But, I do think it all depends on the nature of the relationship--Goreans might have a bit of a problem with that, Masters may not tolerate it of their slaves as much as a Dom/me of His/Her submissive. To me, as a Dom, I want a person to be a human first, a woman second, and a submissive...but to not forget her place in that.Disrespect is not the same as being opinionated. But, then again, that's me...and that is why each Dom/me treats the sub in his/her preferred way.

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RE: The sassy sub who speaks her mind - 11/18/2005 6:31:20 AM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline 		I'll start this by saying I'm not a brat. I am playful, a practical joker, and I love a good debate. These are also some of the reasons why Master enjoys me. His view is that he can get the dog to obey, he wants something more. Someone that makes his life enjoyable.

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The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

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RE: Do you still see a sub as sub when? - 11/18/2005 6:36:05 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I don't view you as less submissive, I just view you as someone who isn't really comfortable and settled yet and will likely need training and time.

The telling statement is that you say you "tweak the tigers tail...and JUST BE ME"

This suggests that by being "a good sub" you're not feeling free to be yourself. Thus perhaps YOU feel you aren't being submissive when you are being yourself. This is a common newbie issue- you WANT to submit, but you aren't really comfortable or trusting yet. So you force the issue to get the leash yank to feel secure yourself, and you reassure yourself that you're not turning into a little robot.

In time you will either learn to settle and realize that being yourself is being a good submissive (with perhaps some polishing training), or you will train yourself to be a brat and use the leash yanking as a way to get attention.

There's a difference between being spirited, vibrant, enthusiastic....and being passive aggressive in getting pushed down.


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RE: Do you still see a sub as sub when? - 11/18/2005 7:05:29 AM   
justatoy2


Posts: 163
Joined: 6/20/2005
Status: offline 		i think there are all kinds of submissives, all different levels and no one is better than the other. Some people have this idea of the ideal submissive being quiet and totally subserient at all times. Well thats just not the case. I can be real smart ass sometimes. I have a wicked sense of humour, but at the same time i not usually disrespctful to my Dom...i say usually because i have on occasion crossed the line. I may not be the "perfect submissive", but i am perfect for him..and really thats all that matters to me. I challenge him inllectually and emotionally, and he likes that. I don't misbehave on purpose to recieve a punishment or get attention..that is what i consider being a "brat". IF i want attention i ask for it...he decides if i get it or not. I do however have to be careful what i ask for, when planning a scene and he asks me what i want to do, i shouldn't ever say "oh i would love to go bowling" , because i may just get what i ask for..

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RE: Do you still see a sub as sub when? - 11/18/2005 7:25:34 AM   
RiotGirl


Posts: 3149
Status: offline 		oh poo, i love being a brat. i suppose thats the word for it. i tease Master, i use sarcasm, i hop about, i do all sorts of silly things. But they are just that. Silly things. Never disrespect, never step out of line, and know when to shut up. Personally i love being silly, as it usually has Master and i laughing our tails off.

Last night, Master told me it was time to start thinking about going to bed. So i did. i thought about going to bed. Then he said "like now" So i thought about going to bed "like NOW" Really, i thought, its soooooo late, i should stay up all night, then i thought well i could use the couple of hours sleep, then i thought i should of gone to bed earlier, then i thought about a preferred time to go to bed.

So anyways, it got a cute chuckle and a smile from Him. But there is that line, and that line is when he stops chuckling and he's done with the joke.

thats it = i'm not a brat, i'm playful!

P.S. i've run into a few Doms, and most all of my most Domly friends tend to like my playfulness. So i dont think they think less of me. Maybe more along the lines of needing a good spanking (as they frequently tell me)

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RE: Do you still see a sub as sub when? - 11/18/2005 8:55:32 AM   
SweetSarijane


Posts: 3788
Joined: 10/7/2005
From: KC area Missouri
Status: offline
You said:
This suggests that by being "a good sub" you're not feeling free to be yourself. Thus perhaps YOU feel you aren't being submissive when you are being yourself. This is a common newbie issue- you WANT to submit, but you aren't really comfortable or trusting yet. So you force the issue to get the leash yank to feel secure yourself, and you reassure yourself that you're not turning into a little robot.


Very astute picking up on that LuckyAlbatross. I asked him the question I asked here because I was concerned that I didn't seem submissive at these times. I know I'm submissive. Long road to figuring that out, but I was concerned that by being sassy, teasing, provoking some (though not in a nasty, mean way) that, that would affect a Dom's overall view of me as submissive. Damn I hope I made sense here.



[/quote]


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Sarah2
Deviant Mind
Wild Side Readers KCSass

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RE: Do you still see a sub as sub when? - 11/18/2005 8:56:48 AM   
ginawithaB


Posts: 141
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline 		If I know my Dom friend the way I believe I know Him, the answer to the question would be "no." He tells me all the time He enjoys our talks as He enjoys our "play." (Of course, sometimes the talk is the play.) He likes to hear my thoughts on things and sometimes I get concerned that I'm getting on my soapbox too much or whatever, I check in with Him on it...He just laughs and jokingly tells me He's adding (the "offense") to His "list."

It's all in good fun.

-gina

(in reply to SweetSarijane)
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RE: Do you still see a sub as sub when? - 11/18/2005 9:05:33 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetSarijane
I know I'm submissive. Long road to figuring that out, but I was concerned that by being sassy, teasing, provoking some (though not in a nasty, mean way) that, that would affect a Dom's overall view of me as submissive. Damn I hope I made sense here.

Every relationship finds their own balance. I know some slaves who would gasp in horror if another slave sat on the couch without permission or decided to go to the store without permission first.

And I know *I* have gasped in horror at some of the cheeky remarks that other slaves say to their owners.

But that doesn't matter. What matters is that each relationship finds their own balance. As long as everyone feels comfortable and fulfilled and is communicating expectations, it's all happy.

Although, as I have been telling my local partner recently "Just putting maam at the end of the sentence doesn't make it ok to say."

(in reply to SweetSarijane)
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RE: Do you still see a sub as sub when? - 11/18/2005 9:11:06 AM   
SweetSarijane


Posts: 3788
Joined: 10/7/2005
From: KC area Missouri
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ginawithaB

If I know my Dom friend the way I believe I know Him, the answer to the question would be "no." He tells me all the time He enjoys our talks as He enjoys our "play." (Of course, sometimes the talk is the play.) He likes to hear my thoughts on things and sometimes I get concerned that I'm getting on my soapbox too much or whatever, I check in with Him on it...He just laughs and jokingly tells me He's adding (the "offense") to His "list."

It's all in good fun.

-gina




He sounds like my Dom friend. He encourages me to speak my mind, be honest, be blunt, be me, sassy, mouthy and all. Part of his reply to me was that he enjoys our talks etc., and that he knows when I am pushing for a reaction and he likes that and he knows that I know I'm going to get a reaction from him, and he also knows that I only push so far and never to be mean. He said he knows I'm testing him at those times and he is more than happy to teach me the "consequenses" lol


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Sarah2
Deviant Mind
Wild Side Readers KCSass

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RE: Do you still see a sub as sub when? - 11/18/2005 10:07:49 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		I see a sub all the time; an errant sub, a bratty sub, a philisophical sub, an animated sub, a passionate sub, a contented sub, a sub eager to serve and please.. and so the list goes on.

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Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to SweetSarijane)
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RE: Do you still see a sub as sub when? - 11/18/2005 10:09:58 AM   
happypervert


Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline
quote:

I asked him the question I asked here because I was concerned that I didn't seem submissive at these times. I know I'm submissive. Long road to figuring that out, but I was concerned that by being sassy, teasing, provoking some (though not in a nasty, mean way) that, that would affect a Dom's overall view of me as submissive.

The behavior you describe just sounds playful to me; there's nothing wrong with that and there are plenty of others like me who prefer that in a gal. However, there is also the potential to cross the line between being playful and insolent, and if that happened I'm sure your dom would swiftly let you know and adjust your attitude; that would remind you that you're submissive.

So basically, I think your submissiveness is with you all the time and your dom just brings it to the forefront whenever he sees fit. He is also letting the playful side of you run free as he sees fit. So have fun.

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RE: Do you still see a sub as sub when? - 11/18/2005 10:33:00 AM   
WildSpirit2001


Posts: 143
Joined: 8/30/2005
From: Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

I also am comfortable enough to "tweak the tiger's tail" so to speak and just be me. I asked him if he still saw me as submissive even at the times I'm being sassy, mouthy, or teasing him, or pushing his buttons, and the times when I bluntly voice my opinion or view of things, or if to him it made me less submissive. It made me curious to hear from other Doms their views on this. When a sub (your sub or a good friend who is sub) does this, does it change your perception of his/her level of submissiveness, make them seem less submissive? Is it offensive to you?


Personal preference - I don't play with "brats". I consider "bratting" a form of topping from the bottom and is never acceptable within my relationships. I think my question would be what is the intention/motivation in any given situation. My slave has an incredible sense of humor and I encourage it, however, he is never sassy or disrespectful.

Long answer longer.... I enjoy the occasional playful banter, I will not tolerate disrespect even when delivered in a jovial manner.

My opinions are my own not meant to change or influence yours.
Live... Love... Laugh
Paula

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RE: Do you still see a sub as sub when? - 11/18/2005 5:28:34 PM   
MissDiandSirHugh


Posts: 1158
Joined: 8/11/2005
From: Goondiwindi ( Qld )
Status: offline 		No not at all does this change any idea with us of thinking other than whom ever is still a Sub but also a friend and as such is able to be with us and enjoy chating and haveing some fun other than what else goes on in the paly area.
If it is done with respect then to us it makes being together more a happy and pleasurable time showing that things are all enjoying what else is happening.


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HoRoo for now from Us both and enjoy all you read even if you don"t agree with us or others.
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RE: Do you still see a sub as sub when? - 11/18/2005 8:03:28 PM   
domtimothy46176


Posts: 670
Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
Status: offline 		I don't get offended by a sassy submissive as long as it doesn't cross the line into rude, obnoxious, or boorish behavior. I enjoy a verbal sparring match and pride myself on the fact that I can take what I dish out. toy has a sharp wit and an irreverant sense of humor that I really enjoy.
Like many things, it's a question of personal preference but I value stimulating conversation and having my "tail tweaked" much more than reserved demeanor and religious observation of proper protocol. I'm simply too informal in my interactions to place much value on what others might perceive consider to be appropriate decorum. I get a real kick out of cheeky comments delivered with impeccable timing.
Timothy

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RE: Do you still see a sub as sub when? - 11/18/2005 10:44:46 PM   
MrThorns


Posts: 919
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline 		The behavior you described has nothing to do with being less submissive, just as kneeling quietly for long periods doesn't make someone more submissive.

I like some playfulness within my relationship, but smilezz knows that there is an appropriate time and place for that behavior. Her behavior isn't what makes her slave to me. Her committment to do her very best to fulfill my wishes and to find joy in that service is what makes her slave to me.

I'm sure there are things that you do in your relationship that would be inappropriate within my relationship, and visa-versa. The great thing is that your relationship is between you and the person (or people) you choose to be with. Other people's opinions on your behavior within that relationship really don't count for much.

~Thorns

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~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

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RE: Do you still see a sub as sub when? - 11/19/2005 5:46:43 AM   
ProtagonistLily


Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

A conversation I had recently with a Dom friend sparked this curiosity. We have talked online for a few months, and I am comfortable enough with him to speak my mind quite openly on things, and generally ask his opinion on whatever comes to mind. I also am comfortable enough to "tweak the tiger's tail" so to speak and just be me. I asked him if he still saw me as submissive even at the times I'm being sassy, mouthy, or teasing him, or pushing his buttons, and the times when I bluntly voice my opinion or view of things, or if to him it made me less submissive. It made me curious to hear from other Doms their views on this. When a sub (your sub or a good friend who is sub) does this, does it change your perception of his/her level of submissiveness, make them seem less submissive? Is it offensive to you?


I gotta agree with Lucky Albatross on this one.

I stopped thinking about whether I was going to be viewed as 'submissive' enough a long time ago. Really, the same rules of vanilla dating really apply here: Be yourself.

There was a girl once who tried to stuff all her personality, bite her tongue and try to be attractive to the Doms by showing how submissive she was. It didn't work for her because it was her personality, wit, charm, and even sometimes her indignation that made her stand out as interesting. Let me tell you, that was the hardest 5 minutes of my entire life ~grin~.

If you posture for the "Doms" what happens when you can't stuff your personality anymore and the real you comes out? You end up with a weird "Jeckle and Hyde" thing and no one wants that.

Just be who you are. You can be vivacious and full of personality AND still be polite and work within the social structure of WIIWD.

There's a Jack for every Jill. Just be yourself and find each other.

Lily

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"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

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RE: Do you still see a sub as sub when? - 11/19/2005 6:50:57 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily
I gotta agree with Lucky Albatross on this one.
Lily

Thanks Lily, I'm going to ditto your post also and add that I think a chunk of this phenomena has to do with the whole "Tell me what to do to make you happy, tell me what I need to do to be accepted" problem that novices get themselves trapped into so easily.


So they get off to the wrong foot right away, leading to even more hurt and disillusionment down the line (I did everything he wanted, why aren't I happy?")

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)
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