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Anthrax Evidence - 8/4/2008 10:03:51 PM   
Bethnai


Posts: 492
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline 		http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/04/us/04anthrax.html?em
The bureau, having recently paid off one wrongly singled-out researcher, Dr. Steven J. Hatfill, now stands accused by Dr. Ivins’s lawyer and some of his colleagues of hounding an innocent man to suicide. Only by making public a powerful case that Dr. Ivins was behind the letters can the F.B.I. begin to redeem itself, members of Congress say and some bureau officials admit privately.
Tom Daschle of South Dakota, the former Democratic leader of the Senate and one target of the deadly letters, said on Sunday that he had long had grave doubts about the investigation.
“From the very beginning, I’ve had real concerns about the quality of the investigation,” Mr. Daschle said on Fox News Sunday.
“Given the fact that they already paid somebody else $5 million for the mistakes they must have made gives you some indication of the overall caliber and quality of the investigation,” Mr. Daschle added. He was referring to the government’s settlement in June with Dr. Hatfill, which pays him $2.825 million plus $150,000 a year for life to compensate him for what the F.B.I. now acknowledges was a devastating focus for years on the wrong man.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/05/washington/05anthrax.html?ref=us

They had even intensively questioned his adopted children, Andrew and Amanda, now both 24, with the authorities telling his son that he might be able to collect the $2.5 million reward for solving the case and buy a sports car, and showing his daughter gruesome photographs of victims of the anthrax letters and telling her, “Your father did this,” according to the account Dr. Ivins gave a close friend.
As the investigation wore on, some colleagues thought the F.B.I.’s methods were increasingly coercive, as the agency tried to turn Army scientists against one another and reinterviewed family members.
One former colleague, Dr. W. Russell Byrne, said the agents pressed Dr. Ivins’s daughter repeatedly to acknowledge that her father was involved in the attacks.
“It was not an interview,” Dr. Byrne said. “It was a frank attempt at intimidation.”



Never have a post office box set up to receive pornagraphic pictures of blindfolded women.*****
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RE: Anthrax Evidence - 8/5/2008 12:25:11 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		Ivins was the designated scapegoat. He was innocent.
 
Hatfill - who was rewarded financially in a major way - is the prime suspect.

(in reply to Bethnai)
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RE: Anthrax Evidence - 8/5/2008 1:05:05 AM   
Bethnai


Posts: 492
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline 		I agree. 100%.

(in reply to Rule)
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RE: Anthrax Evidence - 8/5/2008 4:18:06 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I hope they have it right...I don't think any of us knows enough about the evidence yet to make a judgement.

Butch

(in reply to Bethnai)
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RE: Anthrax Evidence - 8/5/2008 4:48:04 AM   
Rule


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Status: offline 		I know sufficient.

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Anthrax Evidence - 8/5/2008 8:35:50 AM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Ivins was the designated scapegoat. He was innocent.
 
Hatfill - who was rewarded financially in a major way - is the prime suspect.

Every single report indicates Hatfill has been definitively ruled out. There are doubts about Ivins' guilt as well but it is far from clear that he wasn't the one.

(in reply to Rule)
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RE: Anthrax Evidence - 8/5/2008 8:45:03 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		I am not interested in the lies of every single report. I know the truth.

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Anthrax Evidence - 8/5/2008 10:54:37 AM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

I am not interested in the lies of every single report. I know the truth.

IOW I can make assertions and expect no one to know enough facts to doubt my claim. Too bad for you that I do know more than enough to doubt your claim.

Put up or shut up.

(in reply to Rule)
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RE: Anthrax Evidence - 8/5/2008 11:22:30 AM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

IOW I can make assertions and expect no one to know enough facts to doubt my claim. Too bad for you that I do know more than enough to doubt your claim.

Put up or shut up.

Don't hold your breath.

~stef


_____________________________

Welcome to PoliticSpace! If you came here expecting meaningful BDSM discussions, boy are you in the wrong place.

"Hypocrisy has consequences"

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Anthrax Evidence - 8/6/2008 3:36:14 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		Actually I was investigating a highly suspect person X alleged to have died during the WTC demolition. This X was connected to an equally highly suspect person Y, so I started to investigate this person Y too. Now the furthest thing from my mind was to have anything to do with the anthrax case, as my interest was in the WTC demolition and in X. So I was very much surprised to learn that Y had been closely involved with Hatfill who was a suspect in the anthrax case - and that was all the data that I required to conclude that Hatfill was the prime suspect.
 
I googled a bit today and found this website, from which I quote:
 
"• Bloodhounds found him of some interest after snuffling a letter inside of envelope put there by Hatfill, preserved in a hermetically-sealed bag. The hounds responded to him alone.
• A return address on one of the anthrax-bearing envelopes was Greendale, Rhodesia. Hatfill lived in Greendale.
• The neo-fascist Selous Scouts in Rhodesia spread anthrax. Hatfill was a member of the Scouts at the time of the contagion's spread.
• Hatfill had no fit alibi for the days of the anthrax mailings.
• Hatfill's PhD was forged. He was caught lying on his resumé.
• He failed a CIA lie-detector test regarding his activities in Rhodesia before the anthrax attacks. He failed a lie detector test afterward concerning his involvement in them.
Some of most damaging evidence was discovered in ponds recently searched near his home. Items pulled from the mud included a clear box with insert holes for rubber gloves to protect someone working with toxic materials. Also recovered were glass vials in plastic wrap, and gloves.5
One wonders which expletive David Kay, the SAIC vice president and Hatfill's boss, whispered to himself the moment he heard that these items had been found - not to mention a positive lab test for traces of anthrax FBI technicians detected on these objects, later changed to "inconclusive." "

< Message edited by Rule -- 8/6/2008 3:41:20 AM >

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Anthrax Evidence - 8/6/2008 6:34:46 AM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline 		It's pretty sickening anyway you look at.

Scenario 1: This guy was innocent and they harassed him to the point of suicide, or killed him for a scapegoat.

Scenario 2: The FBI which could not have any new physical evidence since the attacks, took 7 years to hunt the guy down. Doesn't fill me with confidence. Let's not forget if he was the Anthrax dude, he's been working in a "secured" DoD facility for seven fucking years while the FBI took time to figure it out for SEVEN YEAR old evidence.
Yeah, so if this guy is the real guy that means, it takes seven years to figure out who stole that nerve toxin(hypothetical next time). LOL. This is why I don't trust government, they have all the power, and use it, but the responsible use, and efficient enforcement part is a myth. 

(in reply to Bethnai)
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RE: Anthrax Evidence - 8/6/2008 7:31:17 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Actually I was investigating a highly suspect person X alleged to have died during the WTC demolition. This X was connected to an equally highly suspect person Y, so I started to investigate this person Y too. Now the furthest thing from my mind was to have anything to do with the anthrax case, as my interest was in the WTC demolition and in X. So I was very much surprised to learn that Y had been closely involved with Hatfill who was a suspect in the anthrax case - and that was all the data that I required to conclude that Hatfill was the prime suspect.
 
I googled a bit today and found this website, from which I quote:
 
"• Bloodhounds found him of some interest after snuffling a letter inside of envelope put there by Hatfill, preserved in a hermetically-sealed bag. The hounds responded to him alone.
• A return address on one of the anthrax-bearing envelopes was Greendale, Rhodesia. Hatfill lived in Greendale.
• The neo-fascist Selous Scouts in Rhodesia spread anthrax. Hatfill was a member of the Scouts at the time of the contagion's spread.
• Hatfill had no fit alibi for the days of the anthrax mailings.
• Hatfill's PhD was forged. He was caught lying on his resumé.
• He failed a CIA lie-detector test regarding his activities in Rhodesia before the anthrax attacks. He failed a lie detector test afterward concerning his involvement in them.
Some of most damaging evidence was discovered in ponds recently searched near his home. Items pulled from the mud included a clear box with insert holes for rubber gloves to protect someone working with toxic materials. Also recovered were glass vials in plastic wrap, and gloves.5
One wonders which expletive David Kay, the SAIC vice president and Hatfill's boss, whispered to himself the moment he heard that these items had been found - not to mention a positive lab test for traces of anthrax FBI technicians detected on these objects, later changed to "inconclusive." "

The guy lived in Rhodesia for a while and made a bunch of claims about who he asssociated with there. From actual investigation it was all lies just like his PhD.

And of course the reason Hatfill is definitely not the guy who did it and the reason the FBI stopped looking at him, the Anthrax spores used in the attack come from a lab strain Hatfill has never had access to.

(in reply to Rule)
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RE: Anthrax Evidence - 8/6/2008 8:05:07 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		Hatfill was as one of two scientists suspect from the very first because they were the only two that had access to that strain. So it took them seven years to change the strain and thereby exonerate him?
 
It doesn't matter. I got to Hatfill serendipitously, investigating another matter entirely; that is what matters and convinces.

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Anthrax Evidence - 8/6/2008 8:29:03 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Sometimes I wonder about the competence of our government. In reading some articles about Ivins I found this excerpt ...

"Despite Byrne’s doubts about Ivins’ guilt, a former therapist of Ivins told a Maryland court on July 24 that Ivins was a “sociopathic, homicidal killer” who planned to “go out in a blaze of glory” by killing his co-workers because of his impending indictment.
The New York Times exclusively obtained audiotape of a court hearing where Jean Carol Duley, a psychotherapist who had treated Ivins for six months, described Ivins as a “revenge killer” who had purchased a gun and a bulletproof vest. She also feared for her own life and successfully obtained a restraining order against him.

Now keep in mind he was a leading anthrax researcher at the U.S. Army’s main biodefense laboratories at Fort Detrick, Md. With access to one of the most deadliest substances on earth.

Don't they have ongoing periodic mental health screens for these people?  damn what idiots!!

Butch

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Anthrax Evidence - 8/6/2008 9:00:11 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		Somehow I distrust these unsubstantiated rumors that are also discredited by people that knew Ivins well.
 
This man is literally hounded to death by federal investigators. Is it odd then that he buys a bulletproof vest and a gun to defend himself? Not at all.
 
And who is this psychotherapist Jean Carol Duley? Someone in the pay of whomever wanted to smear Ivins in order to present a scapegoat after the fact?
 
There are lies and attempts to distort the truth all around in this case. Ivins was innocent. The only one to profit in a major way financially from the anthrax incident was Hatfill - and that as well as several other facts makes Hatfill the prime suspect.

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Anthrax Evidence - 8/6/2008 9:30:44 AM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline 		http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121799265899216039.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

I hope the FBI has better credible sources, than the duley lady, she should be in jail herself for the the DUI's she's gotten out of, I have no idea how she got out of them, around here they convict DUI's, if not the first time the second. She was even driving the wrong way down the street once. LOL.

< Message edited by NeedToUseYou -- 8/6/2008 9:34:58 AM >

(in reply to Rule)
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RE: Anthrax Evidence - 8/6/2008 9:36:58 AM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline 		http://casesearch.courts.state.md.us/inquiry/inquiry-results.jsp?action=Search&d-16544-s=7&filingDate=&filingStart=&courtSystem=B&d-16544-o=2&filingEnd=&firstName=JEAN&company=N&lastName=DULEY&exactMatchLn=Y&site=00&d-16544-p=1&partyType=&countyName=&middleName=

apparently Maryland puts all there court records up for all to see.

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
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RE: Anthrax Evidence - 8/6/2008 10:03:22 AM   
Rule


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Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou
I hope the FBI has better credible sources, than the duley lady, she should be in jail herself for the the DUI's she's gotten out of, I have no idea how she got out of them, around here they convict DUI's, if not the first time the second. She was even driving the wrong way down the street once.
So she could be blackmailed and bought. Not a credible witness, therefore.

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
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RE: Anthrax Evidence - 8/6/2008 11:25:22 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Hatfill was as one of two scientists suspect from the very first because they were the only two that had access to that strain. So it took them seven years to change the strain and thereby exonerate him?
 
It doesn't matter. I got to Hatfill serendipitously, investigating another matter entirely; that is what matters and convinces.

There are no strains that only two people have access to. I do know that when the testing was announced about a year after the attacks it was for a strain only held at a lab Hatfill never worked.

(in reply to Rule)
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RE: Anthrax Evidence - 8/6/2008 4:32:22 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		I quote from here: "The government recently paid $6 million to settle a lawsuit by Hatfill, who worked in the same lab as Ivins".
 
and another quote: "Anthrax culled from the letters was quickly discovered to be the so-called Ames strain of bacteria, but with genetic mutations that made it distinct. Scientists developed more sophisticated tests for four of those mutations, and concluded that all the samples that matched came from a single batch, code-named RMR-1029, stored at Fort Detrick.
Ivins "has been the sole custodian of RMR-1029 since it was first grown in 1997," said one affidavit".

My comment: It does not matter that Ivins allegedly was the sole custodian of that strain. Hatfill easily could have gotten access or could have acquired some contaminated refuse.

I quote again: "One FBI document said Ivins "repeatedly named other researchers as possible mailers and claimed that the anthrax used in the attacks resembled that of another researcher" at the same facility.
The name of the other researcher was not disclosed".

< Message edited by Rule -- 8/6/2008 4:33:48 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
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