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RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse - 8/5/2008 2:27:53 PM

LadyDarkDragon

Posts: 27
Status: offline

NO human being ... deserves to be abused...... and if we cant get the ... stupid ... slave to listen to reason, then go after the dominant............. hummm here is a concept... call the law ... we have no qualms about calling the law on someone who abuses a child, or an animal, or the elderly.... why should a submissive be any different..

< Message edited by LadyDarkDragon -- 8/5/2008 2:30:10 PM >

_____________________________

"The fire of passion from loving another is the light that pushes away the darkness of fear"
Lady Dark`Dragon

(in reply to Daes)

Post #: 21

RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse - 8/5/2008 2:33:46 PM

softness

Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline

AND people should be careful how they judge the dynamic from the outside .. if most people saw how DV treated me in the privacy of His own home ... they would be calling in the brute squad on His ass ... from the outisde it would look horribly brutal, abusive, cold, and uncaring .... which is exactly how we both like it. Several people have commented to me in private that I have been brainwashed ... and manipulated into consenting to His wishes ....

The other week I was playing in a club .. and (I only found this out today) the Domme I was playing with cut the scene short because people around us were commenting and complaining about our scene and she wanted it to end while I was still oblivious to the negativity around us. (Frankly WW3 could have broken out and I wouldn't have fricken noticed) At the time she said that we needed to let someone else take a turn on the kit. What she told me the today was that people were trying to get the DM to step in because our scene was clearly abusive ... like clearly ... there I was ... getting single tailed .. and there was blood (shock horror gasp) who'da thunk it ... bleeding from a whipping. Blood = abuse ... yanno. Only the fact that the DM is a friend of ours stopped an official complaint about abuse about a totally CONSENSUAL scene.

its a difficult line ... and personally ... only the people INSIDE it .. have a say in what goes on either side

_____________________________

proudly wearing the blue collar of consideration to DK Leather, Leatherdykeuk, and LeatherEagle of the UK KRueL Leather Family

veritas, respectus honorque in corio

(in reply to Daes)

Post #: 22

RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse - 8/5/2008 2:53:48 PM

LadyDarkDragon

Posts: 27
Status: offline

and there in lies the key soft..... you dont hide what is done to you, you dont shy away from the lime lite... you speak openly... and again... you give informed consent to what is being done..... as I said before.... as long as its done with total consent from the party, I dont care if he turns you inside out if thats what you like.... if its not.. and he does it... does that still make it ok... does he stop and see to your well being after words, or does he piss on you and walk away laughing..... hey if we are gona pluck hairs lets go all out... small for instence, I personaly know of a male who no longer has use of his cock, because some woman thought it would be funny to punish him for not making her food correctly... and used electric on him.. yes she was supposed to be expierenced... her wand wasnt working.. but did that slow her down.. no... she took a cell phone charger cord striped the end off the wires of one end and after plugging it in started poking his cock and balls with the exposed ends, laughing and cussing at him telling him how worthless he was....I came over after it was all done, and the slave had snuck away to call me... his cock and balls were soo swollen from the abuse the skin was dark where the electricty had sparked from him pissing on him self... and the only reason he called me was he was afraid she would be mad at him cause he was so swollen and wanted to know if I knew how to make it go down...this was the first time I had known for a fact that she was being abusive... I took him to the emergency room, then told what he had explaned to me.. all the while blaming himself for the abuse... they called the law.. she got off with public service, and a years probation... but he is now scared for life, cause he was too afraid to stand up for him self..... now would you give concious consent to that???!!!

_____________________________

"The fire of passion from loving another is the light that pushes away the darkness of fear"
Lady Dark`Dragon

(in reply to softness)

Post #: 23

RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse - 8/5/2008 2:55:04 PM

IvyMorgan

Posts: 729
Joined: 7/5/2007
From: Midlands, UK
Status: offline

I've had similar scenes to soft, the kind where management clear away spectators but, because I'm the house sub, I get to keep playing. Gotta love special status at times.

Yes, there are times when D/s goes bad and turns abusive, but trying to make that judgement without knowing the people involved is a tough call. No-one is saying "abuse is good", what people are saying is that some people like to consent to the edgy stuff, and you've no right to stop them.

(in reply to softness)

Post #: 24

RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse - 8/5/2008 2:59:39 PM

UmbraDomina

Posts: 491
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: SE Michigan
Status: offline

For the record: Many things I do to and with my beloved slave he does not get pleasure from, they are things I do for my pleasure, these could range from beating his ass with my favorite hairbrush ( he hates wooden objects and says he finds no pleasure in it) to making him come with me to try on bathing suits ( one of the truely hated tasks, he HATES shopping) he doesn't get pleasure from them but he gets pleasure from serving MY needs, wants and desires. He hates soymilk, but he still pours it on his oatmeal daily ( or as he whines ruins a perfectly good bowl of oatmeal)
For the record also I don't punish, he is a adult he knows what I expect of him and what I don't period, no ifs and or buts about it. My S&M fun is just that it is fun for me and hopefully my partner, I am a sadist I enjoy hurting people, I get hot and bothered by the sight of welts, and screams of pain. As my beloved slave says often he can't even get a hard on unless a little blood has been spilled. Have I ever removed someones nipples? hell no, that would be breaking my toys, what would I play with later? Have I tortured them to the point even a soft t-shirt brings fresh gasps of pain and they had to put bandaids over them to keep their bloody nipples from sticking to a shirt..... yep. Have I nailed someone's balls to the floor becouse they didn't clean it right, no if they can't clean it right they lose their right to be played with, but on the other hand have I ever nailed someone's balls to a piece of wood, making a very nice butterfly board.....yep He doesn't and is not allowed to ever bite me so that is not a issue, and no I don't use rusty tools on his ass, I take pride in my tools and toys.
My slave who is also my husband, was my slave for 6 years before we ever thought of marrige and that was mainly becouse the IRS would not accept Mistress/slave as a valid releationship, knew very much what he was getting into, and knew very much who and what I am. That being said he thanks me daily for being his fantasy woman who has come to life. I guess the thing to remember is sometimes others play in a much more extreme fashion then some and it is RIGHT for them.

Alexandra ~

< Message edited by UmbraDomina -- 8/5/2008 3:05:13 PM >

(in reply to Daes)

Post #: 25

RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse - 8/5/2008 3:07:47 PM

LadyDarkDragon

Posts: 27
Status: offline

and where in there have I ever said that all edge extream stuff had to stop............ no where...... if thats your thing good for you.....................

_____________________________

"The fire of passion from loving another is the light that pushes away the darkness of fear"
Lady Dark`Dragon

(in reply to IvyMorgan)

Post #: 26

RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse - 8/5/2008 3:16:35 PM

Daes

Posts: 246
Joined: 4/20/2007
From: Diamond Bar, SoCal
Status: offline

Well you kinda are, by your previous statement about having the right to call the cops if you suspect the sub/slave is being a victim of abuse (it was implied). Who are you to say what is abuse for That sub/slave?

It is up to the sub/slave to end whatever abuse he/she may be experiencing, you can't make a judgements when you don't know the people involved or what their relationship is like.

< Message edited by Daes -- 8/5/2008 3:17:32 PM >

_____________________________

~*Estrellita*~
I want to be in surrender of His strength, of His power. Alone, I am nothing, but in His arms I am all things...

~His puppy~

(in reply to LadyDarkDragon)

Post #: 27

RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse - 8/5/2008 3:27:20 PM

LadyDarkDragon

Posts: 27
Status: offline

NO human being ... deserves to be abused...... and if we cant get the ... stupid ... slave to listen to reason, then go after the dominant............. hummm here is a concept... call the law ... we have no qualms about calling the law on someone who abuses a child, or an animal, or the elderly.... why should a submissive be any different..
no where did I implie that you just off the wall call the law... in all my posts, I have insisted that if it is known that there is abuse happening, do something.. dont turn a blind eye...
shakes my head... you know no matter what is said, .. I can tell that its falling on deff ears..

_____________________________

"The fire of passion from loving another is the light that pushes away the darkness of fear"
Lady Dark`Dragon

(in reply to Daes)

Post #: 28

RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse - 8/5/2008 4:21:20 PM

E2Sweet

Posts: 649
Joined: 7/8/2008
From: TopLeftCornerOf, OH, USA
Status: offline

When any adult who is intelligent enough to function normally in everyday society willingly gets involved in any sort of BDSM relationship, that person is ultimately responsible for his or her safety and well being. Sure, a submissive does usually hand over the initial responsibility to his or her dominant, as that's the core of the power exchange. But when the relationship turns ugly, it simply is not the BDSM community's responsibility to take over the welfare of the submissive in question. As sad as it sounds to some, for the purposes of this debate, it doesn't matter if the submissive has such severe esteem/emotional issues that he or she may not appear to be making a good decision to consent to the actions of the dominant. As long as the person (submissive) is an adult and is deemed fit to live in normal society (not sure how to word that), then its up to that individual to make responsible decisions with regard to his or her own safety, health and welfare. That is taking personal responsibility.

Information on how to stay safe and be well within a bdsm relationship is everywhere. To be a functioning member of modern society and be considering a bdsm relationship without having at least a basic idea of what you feel would constitutes abuse, is inexcusable.

Certainly approaching someone who you feel is perhaps being abused under the guise of BDSM is a thoughtful gesture, actively policing the BDSM community based on one person's or one group's definition of consent and abuse simply will not work and is not any sort of solution in my opinion. In fact, I see that causing a monumental flood of problems for the community as a whole, not the least of which being the problem of mis-identification of abuse. I suspect accidentally and repeatedly mis-identifying abuse will almost certainly gain any master, dominant, sub, switch, slave, top or bottom the new title of "shunned"...

_____________________________

E2Sweet™
"If it doesn't make you smile then chances are you're not doing it right."

(in reply to LadyDarkDragon)

Post #: 29

RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse - 8/5/2008 4:23:04 PM

Daes

Posts: 246
Joined: 4/20/2007
From: Diamond Bar, SoCal
Status: offline

=/

...If you improved on your punctuation/grammar you could avoid some misunderstandings. But from what you said, that was what was implied.

You don't /know/ if someone is being abused unless they confess it to you Directly - is ALL I am saying. Because you can't make assumptions based on play.

_____________________________

~*Estrellita*~
I want to be in surrender of His strength, of His power. Alone, I am nothing, but in His arms I am all things...

~His puppy~

(in reply to LadyDarkDragon)

Post #: 30

RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse - 8/5/2008 4:36:20 PM

camille65

Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daes

Well you kinda are, by your previous statement about having the right to call the cops if you suspect the sub/slave is being a victim of abuse (it was implied). Who are you to say what is abuse for That sub/slave?

It is up to the sub/slave to end whatever abuse he/she may be experiencing, you can't make a judgements when you don't know the people involved or what their relationship is like.

I agree, LadyDarkDragon you do come across that way. It also sounds like you are saying that s types are rather pitiful creatures that need to be protected by the big bad dom because there is simply no way that a healthy person could enjoy what you see as abusive.

However I could be utterly wrong.
It is very difficult to read your posts because they tend to consist of one extremely long run on sentence. That has nothing to do with being an English major, you need to stop using ........ every pause and start using periods (a single '.') and paragraphs please.

An easy way to do that is to hit the space bar every third line or so. Or as softness thoughtfully suggested:

If you take a breath where there is a natural break. Use a full stop.
If you simply pause, use a comma.
If you want to show a strong emotion. Well! Its time for an exclamation!
When you change idea, or begin to make a different point. Start a new paragraph.

No one is mocking your passion, but it is very hard to wade through your posts.

_____________________________

~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).

(in reply to Daes)

Post #: 31

RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse - 8/5/2008 4:41:31 PM

lally3

Posts: 595
Joined: 3/4/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daes

You have to also take into consideration that there are subs that give consent without really realizing what they are doing and feel like they cannot say "No". They go along with the abuse.

Hence my previous statements. It's a two way street and if you have stupid subs out there that don't have the common sense to avoid abuse then they get what they deserve.

sorry daes, but i have to jump on this a bit...

stupid and accepting abuse do not necessarily correlate. you can be damned smart and still go through abuse - it totally depends on your tolerance levels and your self esteem.

someone with high tolerance levels and low self esteem can end up staying in an abusive relationship far longer than anyone can understand.

im reasonably intelligent, educated and ive had 3 abusive relationships, two D/s one vanilla. not a badge of honour, not a badge of shame and not a badge of stupidity either.

i liken relationships to a tree. allowed to stand healthy and tall it supports itself. but if its unhealthy branches get broken off until there are no branches left and nothing left to hold on to. some people only have a few branches, maybe only one, others have lots of branches and it takes a long time to break them all.

i actually enjoyed the OP's initial post, i felt her passion and her anger that at times this lifestyle has people who take broken people and enjoy breaking them some more. i happen to agree that too often broken people come here needing support and security and all they find are mysogenists and arseholes. its a terrible terrible pity that there are people in this world that think its ok to take another persons life and piss on it.

everywhere we read that a D is someone who is supposed to nurture, direct, lead and respect their slaves - and im sure there are slaves who come here eager to find someone who wont abuse them, who will take their giving nature and understand it because they have not managed to find the same caring and love anywhere else.

these are the people i think the OP is ranting for on their behalf and i think she has a very valid point.

_____________________________

even doves have pride (Prince)

(in reply to Daes)

Post #: 32

RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse - 8/5/2008 4:58:22 PM

softness

Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyDarkDragon

or does he piss on you and walk away laughing.....

only if He is feeling really romantic ..

_____________________________

proudly wearing the blue collar of consideration to DK Leather, Leatherdykeuk, and LeatherEagle of the UK KRueL Leather Family

veritas, respectus honorque in corio

(in reply to LadyDarkDragon)

Post #: 33

RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse - 8/5/2008 5:34:46 PM

DarkVictory

Posts: 247
Joined: 8/7/2004
Status: offline

Remind me not to invite this woman and her 'slave' over for an evening of shared time together.... just about the time I was ready to cum on the open scalpel wounds in soft's back, and before the suturing and skin glue came out, I'd be having to deal with the police.

And yes, I piss on her and walk away laughing.... what's wrong with that? She's just meat, after all.

(in reply to softness)

Post #: 34

RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse - 8/5/2008 5:36:53 PM

softness

Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline

awwwww .. so considerate of Sir ... to sterilise the wounds for me afterwards

and Sir ... please stop teasing about that whole .. cumming on open wounds then sewing me closed ... its a loooooong time til October

_____________________________

proudly wearing the blue collar of consideration to DK Leather, Leatherdykeuk, and LeatherEagle of the UK KRueL Leather Family

veritas, respectus honorque in corio

(in reply to DarkVictory)

Post #: 35

RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse - 8/5/2008 5:55:07 PM

YourhandMyAss

Posts: 5516
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline

I read some of it then my reaction wa wah wah wah who cares. They're pissed cause some people don't do things the way she thinks it should be done, so he's labling it abuse.

< Message edited by YourhandMyAss -- 8/5/2008 6:44:27 PM >

(in reply to Daes)

Post #: 36

RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse - 8/5/2008 7:03:41 PM

IrishMist

Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline

Ummmm...I hate to be a boor; but...

What was it you were trying to say again?

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If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.

(in reply to LadyDarkDragon)

Post #: 37

RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse - 8/5/2008 7:16:00 PM

CallaFirestormBW

Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline

I think that my issue with this isn't about whether or not there is abuse. I'm a pastoral-care provider in the BDSM community, and I've been providing pastoral care for 10 years longer than I've been active in the community myself (I've been an active participant as well as a pastoral care provider for over a decade). I'm not going to say that there isn't abuse going on -- but in almost 2 decades of providing pastoral care in the community, I've learned that it is completely impossible to determine "abuse" by the condition of the servant. I've cared for dynamics in which regular beatings, breaking of the skin, drawing blood, extreme body modification, scarring, etc., were cherished aspects of the dynamic, and where the occasional trip to the hospital for broken bones was not unheard of.... and where these folks came to me because people within the BDSM community were trying to drive a wedge into their dynamic because outsiders believed that what was going on was abuse, while the participants truly did understand what was being consented to, and felt strongly about their right to choose to experience those things. I learned, after jumping to a number of conclusions myself, that it is virtually impossible to determine whether there is "abuse" in someone else's dynamic unless one of the members of that dynamic stands up and withdraws consent for the acts.

I concur with the OP that if someone were to come to me and say "I need help to get out of this relationship, because I'm afraid and I am being abused and I don't know how to make it stop", I would be compelled by common decency to act (in my case by helping them find a place to go to, and, if necessary, legal help to reinforce the withdrawal of consent) -- but I've been around long enough, and provided pastoral care to enough people who relished their dynamic and whose biggest issue was interference from well-meaning others both inside and outside of the BDSM community that I don't feel capable of judging for someone else who has declared consent that hir chosen dynamic is "abusive". Extreme relationships may be uncomfortable, but unless the people in them withdraw consent, I don't believe that -anyone- has the right to make a conclusion about that dynamic, no matter how "well-meaning" it may seem.

Calla Firestorm

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 8/5/2008 7:17:38 PM >

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to YourhandMyAss)

Post #: 38

RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse - 8/5/2008 7:28:35 PM

katie978

Posts: 352
Joined: 7/21/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyDarkDragon
{your a man, and you let a woman beat you up, grow some balls}

what part of ...INFORMED CONSENT... is not getting through...

and if we cant get the ... stupid ... slave to listen to reason...

we have no qualms about calling the law on someone who abuses a child, or an animal, or the elderly.... why should a submissive be any different..

I can tell that its falling on deff ears..

I think you might need to spend a little more time on the forums. These subbie boys who ask to be beaten, abused, broken- they're not being forced into by some big bad domme, they're BEGGING for it! Every week we get some subbie boy asking for some extraordinarily STUPID, extreme bdsm. This week, it was the "Ball Popping" thread in Ask a Mistress. Last week, it was the john-sub-boy who wanted an all-day enema in "Health and Safety".

Almost as often, we get the rants from Mistresses complaining that all submen was a fantasy women. Lots of the super-extreme play could not be done everyday...some couldn't be done safely ever. These hardcore acts are better left as fantasy, but if they get carried out, who's to say it's abuse?

In my time here, there have been several threads about castration. You or I might consider that abuse. There are men out there willing to pay thousands and thousands of dollars for a domina to do this. How can you say this isn't consensual? Is that the situation where you'd consider the slave to be as stupid and incapable at making decisions as an animal? Would you call the police to report this completely consensual sitaution because it doesn't match your moral code or idea of safe BDSM?

Even as a subbie who clearly states she's not looking, I still get e-mails from men who are all about the grovelling and crawling and calling me mistress. I absolutely am freaked out by this behavior, and do everything possible to discourage it. Am I abusing these men because they call me Goddess? Because they think they're sniveling worm pus not fit to ooze in the mud by my glorious feet? I had nothing to do with that-that's the fantasy these men choose to pursue.

You don't believe that the grovelling, sniveling type sub is into real BDSM-you think he's been brainwashed by the media and is being abused. I can't say I'm overly fond of the type myself. However, who am I to say they're being abused if they're getting exactly what they wish for? Who are you to say that they're incapable of reason and that someone needs to call the police to rescue him?

< Message edited by katie978 -- 8/5/2008 7:29:34 PM >

_____________________________

"That's the plan. Rule the world. You and me. Anyday ::wink::"

(in reply to LadyDarkDragon)

Post #: 39

RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse - 8/5/2008 8:00:54 PM

CruelDesires

Posts: 824
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline

Your idea of an abusive relationship is another persons fantasy.

Welcome to the world of consensual BDSM.

C-D

_____________________________

Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself.
Lois McMaster Bujold, "A Civil Campaign", 1999

(in reply to katie978)

Post #: 40

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