RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse

RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse (Full Version)

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KnightofMists -> RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse (8/5/2008 9:08:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyDarkDragon well, I am about to piss off a lot of people out there, but you know what, too damn bad.. if I touch a nerve, then good, if I piss off that nerve, then maybe you need to look at yourself and ask why your pissed off.. if I hit too close to home, then maybe you need to seek help, talk to people, find out why your feeling threatened, or pissed that I dare condemn your way of life.. I dare, because I am a dominant, I live what I talk just as millions have before me.. only I am opening my mouth on what I see is a great injustice to something wonderful, that is being tainted by so called dominants, and not only the dominants, but also by subs, but that is another rant for another time...if you feel the need to email me after reading this, by all means do so, not saying I will answer you and if its hate filled, dont bother, cause all I will do is put it down to me hitting that nerve, I dont know you, nor do I care to if your writing to defend abuse and hate,..... soooooo.. what you saying is that your not actually open to exchange of ideas that are contrary to your vision of the world on this particularly issue that you are so passionate about. Problem with passion... it often leads intellect into troubled waters. quote: I am tired of biting my tongue and going with the old adage of '...if thats your thing its ok, who am I to tell you its wrong...' or, as I was just told, 'you need to get over it , you cant heal the world'.. Well, that way of thinking has allowed so much bullshit to enter into this life walk, that many of us actually do live, that it isnt funny... its allowed free rein for abuse and even at times death to enter into what was at one time a full filling and loving relationship tween a dominant and slave..now my rant is mostly aimed at the so called femdommes who think that males are here to be beaten busted and back handed, that they are something to be stomped and thought of as nothing more than pieces of crap to be scraped off the shoe.. well its thinking like that, that perpetuates the abuse so many come from in their child hood..males as well as females... I never understood the idea that "if that's your thing it's ok".... however,... I am also of the mindset that I can't force my will on another... Just because I don't like what someone's choices... doesn't mean I can force my will on them to change their choices.... I am kinda of thinking forcing my will... well is somehow abusive. So... It's their thing! that doesn't mean that It's Ok in my eyes... it's just their thing.... I will stil have a judgement on it.. right or wrong... but I will not try to force my will on it either. I would prefer to constructively express my opinion. quote: Those who come from that kind of back ground, need support, understanding, strength in coming to accept their submissiveness, not continuance of abuse.. give their submissiveness pride, hold them up, strengthen them, guide them into self worth, not self debasing abuse... mmmmmmm you seem to have a nice case of white knight developing. quote: There was a time, a female dominant who had a male slave was said to have a male companion who was her butler/companion/driver/presedo ladies maid... in public......now behind closed doors though, he was her slave.. in all aspects..and she was called a strong formidable woman...and the D/s female dominant relationship was carried out quietly, and not spoke of...except in the sisterhood.. And there is still many relationships like that and will continue to be so. quote: She wasn't the Gestapo bitch from hell with shoes that you could pick up a ton of trash with on the heel.. and those son of a bitches hurt to walk in by the way...she was a lady ... a real lady, strong, quiet, held herself with pride.. could stand on her own if need be, and quite often did...the relationship was what is tagged now as TPE/APE..or 24/7... but over time, thanks to society, that kind of relationship was tainted, and thrown into the trash heap... it was wrong, dirty, and any male who was in that kind of relationship was hen pecked, or pussy whipped.. when in reality, he was loved, cared for, cherished.. and we became our own worst enemy by closing our mouths.. hiding what was a wonderful symbiotic relationship tween a woman and a man... we hid so well, that now society and the life style its self has a tainted view of what a real female dominant and male slave are... the dominants arent the bitches that abuse and disfigure a man just cause he is male.. they arent the heartless haters that are portrade on the porn movies or in books.. they are strong and caring, and compassionate, it is their responsibility to build not destroy.. There is alot of unfavorable generalities and labels in society... just because they exist and are used... doesn't mean that the generality or label is fairly applied... quote: And thats where the submissives miss-conception has followed societies as well, they think that being a slave means that they have to take that abuse, that they are worthless as males, that they are none human, to be abused and degraded..when that is so so far from the truth.... really?? mmmmmmm that hasn't been my experience with submissives.. male or female. Granted there is a few misguided souls out there... but the reality is.. that they are much more aware and strong in character. quote: here is the dictionary's definition of a slave... this one is from websters on the net.. Main Entry: 1slave Pronunciation: \'slav\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English sclave, from Anglo-French or Medieval Latin; Anglo-French esclave, from Medieval Latin sclavus, from Sclavus Slavic; from the frequent enslavement of Slavs in central Europe during the early Middle Ages Date: 14th century 1 : a person held in servitude as the chattel of another 2 : one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence 3 : a device (as the printer of a computer) that is directly responsive to another 4 : drudge, toiler please note the date of when slavery was first named.. and please note the date now and know that the meaning has changed a lot in civalised countries... this one is from the free dictionary on the net.. Dictionary: slave (slav) 1. One bound in servitude of a person or household.{modified} 2. One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence: “I was still the slave of education and prejudice” (Edward Gibbon). 3. One who works extremely hard. intr.v., slaved, slaves. To work very hard or doggedly; toil. Definitions of slaves that come from the mainstream of society are hardly applicable in our little subculture which has it's own definitions to common terms in society as a whole. quote:* ok lets take the first definition.. 1. One bound in servitude of a person or household...... how are they bound.. in this day and age, by desire on their part to serve.. pure and simple.. to force someone to serve you is the old definition of slavery..One bound in servitude as the property of a person or household.... that was abolished in this country and others over a hundred years ago.. and your point is? quote:* Lets use common sense here people..do you see anything in there that says to be abused, humiliated, debased, degraded, disfigured,.... hell no!.... yet so many males new to this life walk think thats exactly what is in store for them, and many because of their past, think this is normal, that that is what they deserve. and that ideal is perpetuated by society, femdomm sites on the net, the porn industry, and literature, and worst of all by some so called dominants as well... IT HAS GOT TO STOP!!!... aaaaawww so that is your point...... Actually.. there is nothing in the definition that says that they can't be abused, humilated, debased, degraded, disfigured either....... Fact of the manner... What a slave is.. and how a slave is treated is two distinct issues. A slave that is treated poorly... is just as much bound to servitude as the one treated well. Which is why it is very critical that a person who enters into slavehood needs to choose very carefully who they serve. quote: Now, I am not talking about those who make a conscious choice to indulge in fetishes, as long as your making that choice an informed one.... NOTICE I SAID an INFORMED ONE.....not something you feel you deserve because thats what was drummed into your head, that your worthless, that as a man your lower than dog shit, and arent worthy of being treated as a human being..that is where the line has to be drawn,..... yes informed consent... rather important... but it is not such a black and white issue as you would like to project...... What is consent? I have found people's idea of what is consent to be varied... let alone what is informed.... people seem to have a varying degree of what they need to know before they give consent. I have found what one considers to be informed... to be another idea of guessing. quote: I have seen three types of submissives in my life walk, brats, unworthy, and true submissives/slaves... the first two are the ones that truly worry me... only three.... that must make it easy to put everyone into the right box. quote: ...the first, brats.. they have the mind set that they need a huge chip on their shoulders, and think that the only way to have a dominant is for her to knock it off and grind it to dust.. then they will kneel to her.. wrong...when in reality they are more than likely hiding behind false bravado to cover great pain from past abuse, or being used by the very dominants I am ranting about.... mmmmmm such a nice neat box ... so clearly labeled and good description too. quote: ...the second, unworthy.. those are the ones who crawl where ever they go, because they have the mind set that they are lower than dirt, and are convinced that the only dominant they deserve is one who will beat, degrade, and humiliate them... again.. wrong....again, these have been more than likely down beat to the point of worthlessness by past abuse mentally as well as physically by life and now these so called dominants.... oh another neat box! quote: Now we come to the third, the true slave, now there is one who is comfortable with their submissiveness, they are open, will joke, tease, flirt, but at the mere hint will kneel and give their self willingly, they never have to be forced, or beat, or abused, degraded, or humiliated into their submissiveness.. they never crawl to offer themselves, the offer themselves with self pride, not boasting pride, but self pride in the fact they are a submissive. they are completely aware of who they are and what walk they have chosen to live. true, some slaves have fetishes of pain, CBT, scat, blood, needles, etc etc... yet they have made a conscious choice to enjoy those things... there is the secret.. conscious choice, not because they feel they deserve this treatment cause they are lower than low.. but because they enjoy testing their endurance, they enjoy the pleasure and passion it brings about to their dominant... just as serving her dinner, or rubbing her feet, or cleaning her house, or just sitting and laughing and talking brings her pleasure.. its all in the same package...and these slaves are the ones who will stand up to those so called abusive dominants and respectfully walk away from them.. yet those same dominants will label the one walking away as a player, a sub, or accuse them of not being a true slave..when in reality the slave has just shown an inner light on what that dominant is and she doesnt like it.. Oh this is a really nice box.... and such an indept description............ it's too bad that people are alot more complex than you seem to give them credit for... and just don't fit into those three nice boxes........ but narrow minds will try to force those square pegs into those round holes. quote: Ok now we get to the dominants who have it in their head, that a male is good for nothing other than debasing, humiliating, abusing, beating... if thats all you want a male slave around for, then become a pro, cause thats about all your good for.. no emotional attachment, the slave can thankfully walk away from you at the end of the session.. dont kid yourself into thinking that your a life time dominant, cause your not! your using the ideal of a dominant to be an abusive bitch..a dominant isnt someone who walks in and throws their wight around, and barking out orders, as she back hands the male to the floor, then screams obscenities at him and beats him till he is bloody and black and blue.. just to prove to the slave she is in control... mmmmmm so a person is into an abusing..... they should go Pro? mmmmmmm me thinks you have some prejudice towards Pro-Doms quote: No!.. She walks in silently, with just as much pride as the slave, in who and what she is... her orders are respectfully asked, her wants and desires are respectfully made known..a true dominants power is in her persona, how she carrys herself, it enters a room as an aura around her.. And to show that power, she guides and teaches, she helps open doors to show the slave their potential, she nurtures and builds on that slaves strengths, and compassionately and patiently helps the slave understand and over come their weakness, that is where the true power of a dominant is.. not how bloody and bruised she can make a slave....and in turn, if the dominant guides the slave as she should, then the slave will help her grow as well.. Oh what a wonderful box!!! quote: A true D/s relationship is as I said in the beginning, a symbiotic relationship.. it is no different than a so called vanilla relationship except that the traditional roles are reversed.. as I also said in the beginning, some call it total power exchange, or absolute power exchange.. but in reality, its nothing more than an open caring relationship...and I for one am thankful that mmmmmmmm After being with Alandra for nearly 20 years and Kyra for over 3 years... I can assure you.... a M/s or D/s relationship can be alot more than just an open caring relationship. In fact, I have found most relationships that have endured over the course of time are alot more than just an open caring relationship.. regardless of there relationship style. quote: Well there you have my rant and rave, as I said before, if you feel you need to respond, by all means do so.. if you agree with me, then by the gods, open your mouth as well, this silence has got to stop........ Brightest Blessings... I see your from Tulsa......since you are so adamant that the silence needs to stop... I assum you must be rather active in your local community and therefore you must be very much acquinted with Malik and Kathy.... please extend my regards to the two of them.

slavegirljoy -> RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse (8/5/2008 10:58:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyDarkDragon I posted this rant in my journal, and it was suggested that I should put it here as well, With all due respect, whoever suggested that wasn't doing anyone any favors. Your post, while very impassioned and heartfelt, is very long, convoluted, and rambling. On top of that you throw in generalizations and stereotypes, which do nothing to help promote your cause. quote: maybe save someone from more abuse or in the extream, a life or two by making a slave stop and think of why they feel no self worth Your first generalization, which has absolutely no relevance to this slave or any other slave i have met, is that slaves have no feelings of self worth. Maybe, you didn't mean that all slaves lack self worth but, if so, you didn't make that clear. And, every slave i have gotten to know has had very sound feelings of self worth. As a slave to my Master, my sense of self worth and self confidence had grown tremendously. He has challenged me in ways that have helped me to grow more than any one else ever has and He encourages me to believe in myself. quote: I am tired of biting my tongue and going with the old adage of '...if thats your thing its ok, who am I to tell you its wrong...' or, as I was just told, 'you need to get over it , you cant heal the world'.. Well, that way of thinking has allowed so much bullshit to enter into this life walk, that many of us actually do live, that it isnt funny... its allowed free rein for abuse and even at times death to enter into what was at one time a full filling and loving relationship tween a dominant and slave..now my rant is mostly aimed at the so called femdommes who think that males are here to be beaten busted and back handed, that they are something to be stomped and thought of as nothing more than pieces of crap to be scraped off the shoe.. well its thinking like that, that perpetuates the abuse so many come from in their child hood..males as well as females... 1) What i enjoy in my personal, sexual life is mine and my Master's business and no one else need ever approve of what He and i do in private. It is Our "thing" and, as long as it doesn't impact anyone else's life, it shouldn't matter to anyone else. 2) We actually live this way of life, too and we enjoy it Our Way, which does include some very nice beatings from Him and being back-handed by Him, whenever i am fortunate enough to feel the sting of His hand across my face. We also have a very loving relationship. In fact, it's the most loving and caring relationship i have ever known. He doesn't think of me "as nothing more than pieces of crap to be scraped off the shoe". He values His property and takes very good care of me. 3) Many people suffered abuse as a child. Many of them live very "vanilla" lives and are not involved in relationships that are abusive, at all or even kinky. And, many people who enjoy S&M, like me and my Master, never experienced any abuse as children. While, there is way too much in this post to respond to it all, the main point that i got from it is that you are upset about abusive treatment of (primarily) male slaves by their (primarily) female dominants. So, that's what i will respond to. First, you don't have to be a slave to enjoy being whipped, slapped, humiliated, etc. Many people, including me, have taken pleasure in these and other S&M activities, without being in a Master/slave relationship or, for that matter, without being in anything more than a kinky but, otherwise conventional relationship. i have been enjoying S&M for more than 30 years and i have only been in a Master/slave relationship for the past 32 months. Second, Domestic (Intimate Partner) Violence occurs throughout mainstream society. It's not exclusive to people involved in D/s relationships or those who enjoy BD/SM. Many men are victims of domestic violence and the majority of them are in conventional (non-BD/SM) relationships. Abusive relationships are not limited to ones involving BD/SM. Every year, 1,510,455 women and 834,732 men are victims of physical violence by an intimate. This is according to a Nov. 1998 Department of Justice/Centers for Disease Prevention and Control report on the National Violence Against Women Survey. What does that mean? Every 37.8 seconds, somewhere in America a man is battered. Every 20.9 seconds, somewhere in America a woman is battered. http://www.batteredmen.com/batresrh.htm Also, many men are considered to be "hen pecked" or "pussy whipped" and they are not in kinky or D/s relationships. Their wives "wear the pants" in the family and the men catch hell, if they don't kiss their wife's ass and do everything she wants. That sort of thing has nothing to do with being a slave or being into BD/SM. As i said before, being a willing, voluntary slave has nothing to do with feeling "that they have to take that abuse, that they are worthless as males, that they are none human, to be abused and degraded". Many people have self worth issues and they are not in a D/s relationship. And, many, including me, are in Master/slave relationships and feel very worthwhile and good about who we are and how we live. Believe it or not, a person can enjoy being "used and abused" by the special person in their life and still feel very good about themself. You don't have to consider me a "true slave", since i have no problem with crawling to my Master and begging Him to use me any way He wants and, i love being beaten and bruised by Him. But, my Master considers me to be His slave and that's all i need. joy Owned servant of Master David

Owner4SexSlave -> RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse (8/6/2008 1:47:40 AM)
A few lines of thought to toss out here....... "If you love me then you will hurt me."... "If you love me, then you will let me hurt you"... "Don't love me, just hurt me." "Don't love me, because I will only hurt you"... "Give me pain, and release me from this day to day dead feeling inside".... "Let me hurt you, to release myself from this day to day dead feeling inside"... Let us remind each other through pain, what it's like to be alive... The pain, and the release of pain... changes our state of day to day boredom, feeling caught in a rut. Bring forth a state of change in mental or physical sensation... remind us that we are human... and we are alive and still breathing... What does not kill us, makes us stronger... Sex and violence, God let's beat one another up.. and try killing each other with rough sex... fuck each other to death until we are sore and can hardly move.. and do it again... pushing ourselves and our limits... "Master, please I am here to absorb your anger and pain, please hurt me.. use me as an outlet to your pain, so that it releases you from the demons within"... call this a form of a sub/slave being a sort of emotional sin eater. The list of reasons, and different lines of thinking goes on and on.

LadyDarkDragon -> RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse (8/6/2008 1:57:33 AM)
I left earlier with the hope that when I returned there would be more who understood what I was trying to say, but after reading the posts, I see now why so many male and female slaves are being hurt physically, and mentally beyond belief.... everyone was so busy defending offense where none was meant, or criticizing the way it was structured or the spelling that the whole meaning of the post was lost...except for two posts, who I want to thank for seeing what I was talking about.... well I said I was gonna piss people off, but I didn't think it would be those who have and use informed consent, .. At no time did I attack any of the life choices that have posted here.. what is between a dominant and the slave and how their lives are lived, is between them as long as it is with, and here are those two words again... INFORMED CONSENT .. This is my last post here... I can see that the code of, " what ever is your thing is fine, who am I to dissagree"...is firmly locked into place. I had hoped that in this life walk anyway, we had some sense of responsibility to fellow humans to watch out for each other, but now realise that the single person society has bled over into here, ...and gods forbid, that someone might have to step out on that safe sane and consensual concept. A good game is talked about how open we are and protective we are of peoples rights in the lifestyle, yet we are to apparently turn a blind eye when its known for fact that someone is being abused against their will, for fear of stepping on someones toes. As I said in two or three rebuttals, if its a child, an animal, or the elderly, we run to help, but because its nothing more than some stupid slave who should have known better, let them fend for themselves and let the ones who do the destroying go on un checked as they move from victim to victem... Thank you for making me proud to claim that I and my boys are in this open and understanding lifestyle... I see no way to shut this thing down, so please by all means enjoy yourselves with it... Oh I am sure you will take this post and blast it to pieces as well because how dare I accuse anyone of being un feeling or question their stance as one in the lifestyle..... shakes my head.... I wonder if this blog will be thought of the next time there is a call that some slave who is known, is either in the hospital or dead from an uncaring hand.. when it was known months before, that there were un consented acts being done to that very same 'stupid emotionally screwed up, should have known better, should have walked away' slave, more than likly not. ....................

Owner4SexSlave -> RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse (8/6/2008 2:16:48 AM)
LadyDarkDragon... I have had the twisted pleasure of being a long term relationship with a Mental S&M junkie. In terms of the norm of things, she got off in getting a fix of mental/emotional pain. In fact she would push buttons to have this happened. Now normally, it should have fucking tore somebody to pieces inside and crushed them like an empty beer can. However, she took it more like somebody shooting her with a nurf ball gun. Things that in a different relationship that would have been considered, as being truely abusive. Just what is Abusive or not? Back to trying to establish this as a universal word with universal meaning. It's more about what each and every human being can humanly take, desires to take and dish out to one another. At times, the sub/slaves actually push for being abused and used if they don't feel they are getting the proper level of S&M they are craving and need a fix for... HOWEVER, if somebody is being USED and ABUSED against their will and it's not what they SIGNED up for or AGREED upon, well... it's time for them to fucking rethink life and Bail ASS from that Relationship. You wrote a lot of specific Examples of things in your OP, that well... may or may not be considered abusive to other people. Live with a Mental/Emotional Masochist for awhile, then get back to me later... think it might blow your mind a little! It's a little strange to cross over lines and do things that you at one time considered abusive to Discover, it's like hitting somebody with a fucking Nerf Ball Gun. Has very little impact upon them... Now, with that said... It all depends upon the people involved in any relationship. Back to somebody BEING USED and ABUSED against their Will, in a manner not Agreed upon. If it's not something they can human deal with, don't want, and it's Making them Totally Miserable... TIME to rethink things and Get out of the relationship. --------------------------------------------------------- What you are missing is that some (not all) people are hardcore Masochists!!! They will get off on levels of pain mental or physical that just might SQUICK you out in 2.5 seconds flat..... -------------------------------------------------------------

apiercedkitty -> RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse (8/6/2008 6:55:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IvyMorgan Yes, there are times when D/s goes bad and turns abusive, but trying to make that judgement without knowing the people involved is a tough call. No-one is saying "abuse is good", what people are saying is that some people like to consent to the edgy stuff, and you've no right to stop them. i think this statement is the key. If you look at the sub and they seem to all outward appearances to be happy, who are we to judge? i think the same pretty much applies to the vanilla world as well. And yeah, i know abuse goes on that the abused one would never let on - but who is anyone to judge someone else's circumstance?

IrishMist -> RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse (8/6/2008 7:59:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyDarkDragon I left earlier with the hope that when I returned there would be more who understood what I was trying to say, but after reading the posts, I see now why so many male and female slaves are being hurt physically, and mentally beyond belief.... everyone was so busy defending offense where none was meant, or criticizing the way it was structured or the spelling that the whole meaning of the post was lost...except for two posts, who I want to thank for seeing what I was talking about.... well I said I was gonna piss people off, but I didn't think it would be those who have and use informed consent, .. At no time did I attack any of the life choices that have posted here.. what is between a dominant and the slave and how their lives are lived, is between them as long as it is with, and here are those two words again... INFORMED CONSENT .. This is my last post here... I can see that the code of, " what ever is your thing is fine, who am I to dissagree"...is firmly locked into place. I had hoped that in this life walk anyway, we had some sense of responsibility to fellow humans to watch out for each other, but now realise that the single person society has bled over into here, ...and gods forbid, that someone might have to step out on that safe sane and consensual concept. A good game is talked about how open we are and protective we are of peoples rights in the lifestyle, yet we are to apparently turn a blind eye when its known for fact that someone is being abused against their will, for fear of stepping on someones toes. As I said in two or three rebuttals, if its a child, an animal, or the elderly, we run to help, but because its nothing more than some stupid slave who should have known better, let them fend for themselves and let the ones who do the destroying go on un checked as they move from victim to victem... Thank you for making me proud to claim that I and my boys are in this open and understanding lifestyle... I see no way to shut this thing down, so please by all means enjoy yourselves with it... Oh I am sure you will take this post and blast it to pieces as well because how dare I accuse anyone of being un feeling or question their stance as one in the lifestyle..... shakes my head.... I wonder if this blog will be thought of the next time there is a call that some slave who is known, is either in the hospital or dead from an uncaring hand.. when it was known months before, that there were un consented acts being done to that very same 'stupid emotionally screwed up, should have known better, should have walked away' slave, more than likly not. .................... Whatever [sm=banghead.gif]

thetammyjo -> RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse (8/6/2008 8:09:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyDarkDragon thanks for the grammer suggestions, from my first two readers, and I mean that sincerly, however, I dont have word perfect, nor am I an english major.. so it will have to stay as it stands, and as for it being too long, if one takes the time to actualy read it insted of just scanning it, then the point becomes clear... now as to why I am ranting about this subject, is because it has become clear to me that the abuse male slaves endure is mostly because they are either too embarrassed to blow the whistle, {your a man, and you let a woman beat you up, grow some balls} is just one hit I am told is said... or they are too convenced that they deserve this abuse. Now the circles I run in dont have this kind of thing all the time, as I surround myself with those who feel as I do about any kind of abuse... so no darcey, it isnt who I 'run' with, but it is who seems to come into my circle of friends. Those seeking shelter from the abuse.. male and female... just as stray animales will find the one house in the neighborhood where they can rest and be safe...again, thank you for your suggestions, .. and will do the best I can ... this is after all my first time posting on a blog... LDD I wasn't talking about your grammar actually but how the piece is set up. The thoughts do not seem to be separated into logical sections and frankly, while you feel quite strongly about it, I didn't see supportive evidence so much as a rants against the idea that folks are being abused in what are being called Ds dynamics. Then you got bogged down in discussing what a slave is and various types of slaves -- completely distracting from what I thought was an attempt to vent about abuse and ask for a discussion. There seems also to be an attempt to discuss good versus bad dominants but again that was unclear to me. I'm talking about focus and evidence.. the dark may be talking about grammar. Be full of passion and rant away if you like but if you want a discussion, if you want to change things, then you must communicate. I'd offer that anyone claiming to BDSM who is being an abusive asshole is an asshole regardless of their sex or gender or sexual orientation. Why are you focused on the male sub/female dom? Does this reflect your own orientation? See, that isn't clear to me and as a person who has had her safe of broken subs in the past, I can agree with some of what you say but I really want you to be as clear as possible or it will just get dismissed as "you need to get over it".

thetammyjo -> RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse (8/6/2008 8:21:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyDarkDragon I personaly dont care if a slave is happy and content with extream use...more power to what ever trips their trigger..... what I am getting at is the slave who has been beat down by life sooo much, that thats what he thinks he deserves.... who will take the abuse because thats what will amuse the dominant.. not because they willingly enjoy it............ As I said before, how many times have we heard or seen or know of a male who has been hospitalised b That's a self esteem issue and a matter of abusers learning to use the lingo of BDSM to find and keep more victims. It isn't a sex specific thing though... my sister's abusive ex used to beat and rape and say "baby, why you crying, it's just a little SM" and that in the very early 1970s! There was one magically time where all so-called doms valued their subs, there was no magical time when it was specific to one gender, sex, or orientation. As for people not speaking out.... we as a collective, global, SM or BDSM community speak about abuse and crime far more than they did in the 1970s or before. It's a slow process to get a sexual kink to become an actual subculture and then to for that subculture to feel safe enough to start criticizing itself by admitting it can be used by predators. I'm so sorry, LadyDarkDragon, that you aren't aware of these changes over the decades but they have happened and they continue to happen. You say that you have taken in those who are being abused but what else do you do? Do you volunteer at a local SM or BDSM organization to have a annual workshop/panel on the signs of abuse and how to get help? Do you work to get your local groups to adopt as part of their guidelines and protocols rule about dealing with claims of abuse? The individual standing up and declaring "this is wrong" sounds nice but rarely has the same affect as constant education and formal means by which to evaluate abuse claims. And before you ask: Yes, I have done all the above that I suggest. I've been an active steering committee or board member of two SM groups and put in weeks worth of hours in my life with education on these topics.

IvyMorgan -> RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse (8/6/2008 1:40:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyDarkDragon NO human being ... deserves to be abused...... and if we cant get the ... stupid ... slave to listen to reason, then go after the dominant............. hummm here is a concept... call the law ... we have no qualms about calling the law on someone who abuses a child, or an animal, or the elderly.... why should a submissive be any different.. no where did I implie that you just off the wall call the law... in all my posts, I have insisted that if it is known that there is abuse happening, do something.. dont turn a blind eye... shakes my head... you know no matter what is said, .. I can tell that its falling on deff ears.. You've just never said how it is you go about "knowing" that the abuse is happening. The best I can interpret is when edge-type play events are occuring, which for me is thoroughly unabusive, I love those. From the outside looking in at some of what I do, you'd be calling the police, because it seems abusive, but it's not. How are you working out what is abuse and what isn't? You can't do it based on the action/scene content. I repeat, no-one is saying abusive situations aren't bad and shouldn't be dealt with supportivly and caringly. Though, on second thoughts, blindly calling the law in, in the UK, is going to get both the Dom and the Sub arrested and imprisoned. Gotta love Spanner smiles Sometimes "helping" isn't so helpful.

KnightofMists -> RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse (8/6/2008 6:00:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyDarkDragon I left earlier with the hope that when I returned there would be more who understood what I was trying to say, but after reading the posts, I see now why so many male and female slaves are being hurt physically, and mentally beyond belief.... everyone was so busy defending offense where none was meant, or criticizing the way it was structured or the spelling that the whole meaning of the post was lost...except for two posts, who I want to thank for seeing what I was talking about.... well I said I was gonna piss people off, but I didn't think it would be those who have and use informed consent, .. At no time did I attack any of the life choices that have posted here.. what is between a dominant and the slave and how their lives are lived, is between them as long as it is with, and here are those two words again... INFORMED CONSENT .. This is my last post here... I can see that the code of, " what ever is your thing is fine, who am I to dissagree"...is firmly locked into place. I had hoped that in this life walk anyway, we had some sense of responsibility to fellow humans to watch out for each other, but now realise that the single person society has bled over into here, ...and gods forbid, that someone might have to step out on that safe sane and consensual concept. A good game is talked about how open we are and protective we are of peoples rights in the lifestyle, yet we are to apparently turn a blind eye when its known for fact that someone is being abused against their will, for fear of stepping on someones toes. As I said in two or three rebuttals, if its a child, an animal, or the elderly, we run to help, but because its nothing more than some stupid slave who should have known better, let them fend for themselves and let the ones who do the destroying go on un checked as they move from victim to victem... Thank you for making me proud to claim that I and my boys are in this open and understanding lifestyle... I see no way to shut this thing down, so please by all means enjoy yourselves with it... Oh I am sure you will take this post and blast it to pieces as well because how dare I accuse anyone of being un feeling or question their stance as one in the lifestyle..... shakes my head.... I wonder if this blog will be thought of the next time there is a call that some slave who is known, is either in the hospital or dead from an uncaring hand.. when it was known months before, that there were un consented acts being done to that very same 'stupid emotionally screwed up, should have known better, should have walked away' slave, more than likly not. .................... why am I not surprized by this post?

OrionTheWolf -> RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse (8/6/2008 6:04:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyDarkDragon I left earlier with the hope that when I returned there would be more who understood what I was trying to say, but after reading the posts, I see now why so many male and female slaves are being hurt physically, and mentally beyond belief. Above is a judgement on others. What is the difference between this and some fanatic religious person calling what you do abuse? What is the same, is that neither are in the situation being judged. quote: ... everyone was so busy defending offense where none was meant, or criticizing the way it was structured or the spelling that the whole meaning of the post was lost...except for two posts, who I want to thank for seeing what I was talking about.... well I said I was gonna piss people off, but I didn't think it would be those who have and use informed consent, .. At no time did I attack any of the life choices that have posted here.. what is between a dominant and the slave and how their lives are lived, is between them as long as it is with, and here are those two words again... INFORMED CONSENT .. If you improved the communication skills, whatever your idea is, that you say no one is understanding, may come across better. Communication happens between at least two people, and both have responsibility in that process. You also use words without defining what you mean. Your judgement is as long as it is with INFORMED CONSENT. That statement means you make it your business if there is no INFORMED CONSENT. Who determines informed consent? Would implied consent be sufficient? What about previous consent and now they are internall enslaved? What if they have a quirk where they like to be forced, so they purposefully do not give consent and want it taken? You are sitting in judgement and claiming people are wrong, unless it is your way, just as a religious zealot would say the same about your lifestyle. Is there some hypocricy going on here? quote: This is my last post here... I can see that the code of, " what ever is your thing is fine, who am I to dissagree"...is firmly locked into place. I had hoped that in this life walk anyway, we had some sense of responsibility to fellow humans to watch out for each other, but now realise that the single person society has bled over into here, ...and gods forbid, that someone might have to step out on that safe sane and consensual concept. A good game is talked about how open we are and protective we are of peoples rights in the lifestyle, yet we are to apparently turn a blind eye when its known for fact that someone is being abused against their will, for fear of stepping on someones toes. As I said in two or three rebuttals, if its a child, an animal, or the elderly, we run to help, but because its nothing more than some stupid slave who should have known better, let them fend for themselves and let the ones who do the destroying go on un checked as they move from victim to victem... Those that cannot defend their ideas, often run and do not post anymore. As far as rights go, people have to defend them for themselves. There are also those that willing give them up. Child is not the age of consent, animals cannot consent, and the elderly are often borderline to over the line having the menetal faculties to give consent. You use unrelated examples to defend your hypocritical moral superior judgements. quote: Thank you for making me proud to claim that I and my boys are in this open and understanding lifestyle... I see no way to shut this thing down, so please by all means enjoy yourselves with it... Oh I am sure you will take this post and blast it to pieces as well because how dare I accuse anyone of being un feeling or question their stance as one in the lifestyle..... shakes my head.... I wonder if this blog will be thought of the next time there is a call that some slave who is known, is either in the hospital or dead from an uncaring hand.. when it was known months before, that there were un consented acts being done to that very same 'stupid emotionally screwed up, should have known better, should have walked away' slave, more than likly not. .................... You mention trying to get others to understand, but the fact is that many understand what you are saying but disagree. You claim these people to be morally deficient, just as a religious zealot would claim that you are. Save your energy to effect those close to you, but I also recommend some introspection on the issues you have with a hypocricy. You feel you have the right to judge others, and what abuse is, just as some nilla feels they are superior enough to judge what you are doing. Think about that.

ProtagonistLily -> RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse (8/6/2008 6:13:38 PM)
Wow. Just wow. Why is it, since the internet, we think our opinions and our "Rants" hold any real merit. Again, I must echo what many others have said - while apparently passionate, your original post, and many after it have been totally unreadable. In their unreadability, they syphon any credibility you may or may not have. Really, why would I give any creedance to something written in such haste that it's unintelligible. Apparently your point is that pretty much all forms of physical play are abuse. Do you realize how insane you sound? People have been fairly nice to you - frankly in my opinion far too nice. If I were you, I'd get myself some education and understand a simple tenant of WIIWD: It may not be MY kink, but that does not invalidate it. I'd be careful pointing the finger of abuse where it doesn't belong, That can make you fairly unpopular. PL

tonyslaveLD -> RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse (8/7/2008 12:33:29 AM)
i understand Lady Dark Dragons statments fully. Here is what i see from this post. 1) A slave is not a doormat, they still have the right to say no. lets say as in the universal safe word is red in private or in public. to avoid confusion during play. 2) A slave is still a human being subjuct to all the emotions that go with it. Forcing a slave to bottle those emotion will eventually cause them to explode. All those emotions will come out one way or the other. 3) Some slaves/subs put themselves in to abusive situation because that is all that they have known since childhood, so they continuosly put themselves in the cycle of being a victim. 4) Dominants that see this behavior should speak up and say something to help slaves or subs if and when at all possible, and stop turning a blind eye to it. What She is saying is the same as what W/we should do for children. Now having said that there is a big differnce between serving a Dominant out of respect and love vs fear. Also some have the misconseption about tpe/ape <total power control and absolute power control> essencially meaning the same thing. The misconception is yes the slave gives up all control, but the Dominant Has to be responsible for that person as if caring for a child. Just because You can doesnt mean You should. There are people out there that are slaves and not by choice, and that includes mostly women and children and some men. Dateline has done several investigations on this issue. So dont kid Y/yourself that it cant happen. The bottom line is this, if it is consencial then great, but if not and espcially in the rooms and in life a sub/slave should have S/someone to turn too and especially to U/us that are in the lifestyle, because W/we understand them better then anyone else.

softness -> RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse (8/7/2008 1:27:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IvyMorgan Though, on second thoughts, blindly calling the law in, in the UK, is going to get both the Dom and the Sub arrested and imprisoned. Gotta love Spanner smiles Sometimes "helping" isn't so helpful. yah ... no kidding ... but then thankfully, people seem to deal with the "Fickle Finger of Abuse" a little more calmly overhere. Ivy and I were at dinner with a group of other scene peeps the other day, and the subject of abusive play came up. One of the people at the table, very well known, well respected in the UK scene and certainly very well connected, made the comment that largely the UK scene is becoming self policing out of a need to protect its members from our oh so helpful Nanny State. This is a double edged sword. The police are there to protect us, but by letting them know what is going on we in fact expose ourselves to prosecution. What we were discussing is how the scene makes sure it is responsible and observant of the people within it. We don't tend to judge and we don't tend to point the finger, we just amke sure when people need help, they know where to look for it. That's 1000 times more constructive than this type of behaviour. Someone pulled this in the UK ... they would be paying my legal bills.

AllietheKitten -> RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse (8/7/2008 1:44:09 AM)
What I am hearing here is a lot of condemnations about Doms who "abuse" subs. But what about the sub's personal responsibility? Doesn't the sub have a right-nay, a DUTY-to say what kind of relationship they want? I also think that "abuse" is in the eyes of the beholder (or the inflicted upon, as the case may be). I believe that it's a Dom's duty to know their sub, to know what will trigger and what will truly hurt them and what is just good (un)clean fun. But a Dom isn't a mind reader. Again-the sub has a responsibility to themselves and their Dom to declare their limits. Also-you mentioned in the first post that Sub males have this expectation of a "Gestapo bitch from hell" kind of Domme. Well, I'm not responsible for the expectations that subs have, either from porn, previous experiences, or from a twisted past. I am responsible for what I do to them and for them. And I will push my Boy as far as I think he's able to go. But then, I know him, sometimes better than he knows himself, and I know what will trigger him, what will cause him real pain and what will hurt him mentally. PS> I would NEVER play with someone I didn't think was mentally strong enough to deal with it. If someone has come from an abusive past and is looking to BDSM to give them direction that is their problem! And yes, I agree that Doms that take advantage of truly unbalanced or self-hating individuals are reprehensible. But its hard to tell sometimes...there is a fine line between being a healthy masochist and being a self-hating pain junkie with delusions of annihilation. A Dom can only be responsible for so much---again, subs have a responsibility to be healthy and to play healthy.

tonyslaveLD -> RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse (8/7/2008 6:32:49 AM)
This was taken from one of many profiles, DOMINATRIX/DOM>>>>>>>>>>BOTH--------------------------------I seek 24/7 tpe live in slaves/pets/property IF THEY ARE FEMALE. i would even except a TPE male slave but they would need to support me and them financially and male slaves need to know i think they are LESS than nothing, men are just to fuck my ass on occation when i am in the mood and SERVE and be dirt under my heals. A CUCKHOLD who loves humiliatiuon and punishment. as a looser male i would expect a week trial visit so if you know you cant do that why contact me. i dont dress 24/7 so keep that in mind too. ----------DONT WASTE MY TIME PEOPLE I NEVER CYBER--------i sEEK steady slaves any GENDER in need of pain and humiliation. TOTAL DEHUMANIZATION AND FORCE. YOU MUST BE GEOGRAPHICALLY CLOSE TO ME LIKE 20-40 MINUTES AWAY TOPS AND HAVE ALOT OF FREE TIME BETWEEN 9PM AND MIDNIGHT OR WANT 24/7---- AND i need a gf (WHO IS EITHER BORN FEMALE OR A VERY PASSABLE T-GIRL) WHO DOESNT HAVE TO BE SUB OR SLAVE BUT WOULD BE NICE. i can switch for a gf. THEY MUST BE FETISH THOUGH. AND WANT GROUP SEX IN SOME WAY. I LOVE A GF WHO WANTS TO BE GANGBANGED BUT CAN BE FAITHFULL AND DO IT AS A COUPLE. AND NOT REQUIRED BUT I DO LOVE TINY GIRLS WITH TINY BOOBIES.---------THIS MESSAGE IS JUST FOR MEN.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LISTEN YOUR NOTHING GREAT SO DONT CONTACT ME UNLESS YOUR SUPER CLOSE GEOGRAPHICALLY LIKE 20 MILES OR LESS. AND HAVE NO LIMITS. OR WANT 24/7... I DONT CARE WHAT YOU WANT I ONLY WANNA KNOW ONE THING ARE YOU GOING TO SHUT UP AND TAKE YOUR MEDICINE----THATS IT-------MY FAVORITE FETISHES ARE TOTAL CONTROL WHICH I GET BEST FROM BONDAGE PAIN HUMILIATION GAGS RAPE ABDUCTION KIDNAP CUCKOLDING GROUPS FORCE WITH RESISTANCE FORCED FEMINIZATION FORCED HOMOSEXUALITY COUPLES GENDER BENDING INTERSEXED AGE PLAY INCEST PLAY --MOST OTHER FETISHES FALL UNDER THOSE I JUST MENTIONED. IF YOU WANNA KNOW ME READ MY DIARY/JOURNAL I AM STARTING ON HERE---------I WOULD ALSO LIKE A TINY GIRL TO LIVE WITH ME FREE ---FREE RENT FREE UTILITIES FREE ECT AND IN EXCHANGE I GET SEXUAL ACCESS TO THERE BODY BUT THEY HAVE TO BE TINY ALTHOUGH I LOVE A BIG CLITTY WITH LITTLE PUSSY HOLE

tonyslaveLD -> RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse (8/7/2008 7:06:13 AM)
i have to agree with you Ms Alliethekitten on most things in Your post. That yes the sub/slave has to be responsible for themselves just as much at the Dominants. i realise that W/we can only do so much but the least i can do is point them in the right direction, what they chose to do after that is totally up to them. i just feel better knowing that i at least tried. i have been extremely lucky that i was able to pull myself out of that pattern, because people in the bdsm comunity took the time listen, and pointed me in the right direction. The biggest thing that help was that i was ready to take full resposiblity for doing what i needed to, to work on all the baggage that i was carring so that i didnt put it in Someone elses hands. i have to commend Gloria Brames's message board an the work they do selflessly for O/others. tY/y all as well for posting Y/you opions

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse (8/7/2008 7:07:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tonyslaveLD This was taken from one of many profiles, DOMINATRIX/DOM>>>>>>>>>>BOTH--------------------------------I seek 24/7 tpe live in slaves/pets/property IF THEY ARE FEMALE. i would even except a TPE male slave but they would need to support me and them financially and male slaves need to know i think they are LESS than nothing, men are just to fuck my ass on occation when i am in the mood and SERVE and be dirt under my heals. A CUCKHOLD who loves humiliatiuon and punishment. as a looser male i would expect a week trial visit so if you know you cant do that why contact me. i dont dress 24/7 so keep that in mind too. ----------DONT WASTE MY TIME PEOPLE I NEVER CYBER--------i sEEK steady slaves any GENDER in need of pain and humiliation. TOTAL DEHUMANIZATION AND FORCE. YOU MUST BE GEOGRAPHICALLY CLOSE TO ME LIKE 20-40 MINUTES AWAY TOPS AND HAVE ALOT OF FREE TIME BETWEEN 9PM AND MIDNIGHT OR WANT 24/7---- AND i need a gf (WHO IS EITHER BORN FEMALE OR A VERY PASSABLE T-GIRL) WHO DOESNT HAVE TO BE SUB OR SLAVE BUT WOULD BE NICE. i can switch for a gf. THEY MUST BE FETISH THOUGH. AND WANT GROUP SEX IN SOME WAY. I LOVE A GF WHO WANTS TO BE GANGBANGED BUT CAN BE FAITHFULL AND DO IT AS A COUPLE. AND NOT REQUIRED BUT I DO LOVE TINY GIRLS WITH TINY BOOBIES.---------THIS MESSAGE IS JUST FOR MEN.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LISTEN YOUR NOTHING GREAT SO DONT CONTACT ME UNLESS YOUR SUPER CLOSE GEOGRAPHICALLY LIKE 20 MILES OR LESS. AND HAVE NO LIMITS. OR WANT 24/7... I DONT CARE WHAT YOU WANT I ONLY WANNA KNOW ONE THING ARE YOU GOING TO SHUT UP AND TAKE YOUR MEDICINE----THATS IT-------MY FAVORITE FETISHES ARE TOTAL CONTROL WHICH I GET BEST FROM BONDAGE PAIN HUMILIATION GAGS RAPE ABDUCTION KIDNAP CUCKOLDING GROUPS FORCE WITH RESISTANCE FORCED FEMINIZATION FORCED HOMOSEXUALITY COUPLES GENDER BENDING INTERSEXED AGE PLAY INCEST PLAY --MOST OTHER FETISHES FALL UNDER THOSE I JUST MENTIONED. IF YOU WANNA KNOW ME READ MY DIARY/JOURNAL I AM STARTING ON HERE---------I WOULD ALSO LIKE A TINY GIRL TO LIVE WITH ME FREE ---FREE RENT FREE UTILITIES FREE ECT AND IN EXCHANGE I GET SEXUAL ACCESS TO THERE BODY BUT THEY HAVE TO BE TINY ALTHOUGH I LOVE A BIG CLITTY WITH LITTLE PUSSY HOLE These kinds of profiles very well may be out there but, as my grandpa used to say (very colorfully) "Wantin' ain' gettin, like fartin' ain't shittin'." I'm betting that a profile like this gets about as much attention as the companion HNG profiles and cmails floating around. Now, if there is actually anyone out there who responds favorably to this kind of ad, and accepts this way of life, I definitely feel sorry for the person (male or female)... but if xhe has agreed to enter into this way of life, understanding what it is (and how could you -not- understand that this is a wanker just by reading the profile?) then that IS the person's choice. No matter how messed up someone is, unless they are legally ruled incompetent, they have the right to make all the mistakes that they want. I will be happy, as a pastoral care provider, to help them pick up the pieces if it goes bad, and if the person was my friend, I would -certainly- let hir know that I thought xhe was an idiot (though if xhe did it anyway, I'd still be hir friend and be there to clean up afterwards)... but as long as xhe's an adult and competent to make decisions, xhe can make all the dumb decisions xhe wants and there is nothing I can or should do about it until xhe says "STOP"! I can also tell you, from blunt experience, that if you try to take a person out of even the most abusive situation if -they- do not believe that it is abuse, not only will they go right back into the same situation, but they will HATE you for taking away their relationship. I know this from almost 20 years of working with battered women in the vanilla world and helping friends intervene to remove "battered submissives" from "dangerous situations". It doesn't work... and it actually perpetuates the damage, because these people will go back to find the SAME type of person as soon as they get out of everyone's "loving grasp". Your hearts may be in the right place, but your ideas are full of holes. Concentrate on your own relationships, work in your community to teach people about the difference between healthy expression and unhealthy expression of their psychosexual desires, and if it floats your boat, keep providing a 'rescue' for folks who finally decide that they need to get away. Get help, too... make friends with local law enforcement and judges by providing ACCURATE, POSITIVE information about BDSM. The more inaccurate, hostile information they get -- especially from insiders -- the more difficult it makes it for legitimate participants to do -anything- without Big Brother looking over their shoulder. Having support in local law enforcement does make it a lot easier to do things like going back to get personal property and getting restraining orders when you need them, though! One thing you -don't- want to do is start looking at everyone else's relationship and trying to gauge whether or not their relationship is abusive by -any- standards but their own internal ones (which you can't know, because you can't get into their heads). It is not only objectionable and untenable behavior and will isolate you from the community faster than you can spit, but there is no way to -enforce- an external standard on individuals that will work. Calla Firestorm

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: when the line is crossed from pleasure to abuse (8/7/2008 10:06:15 AM)
As someone who happily crawls to beg to be taken- I don't think I'm qualified by the OP to give a response she'd consider.

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