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RE: ok, then what IS submissive? - 8/5/2008 2:15:57 PM   
Maxwell67


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst
If that is the case then nillas are submissive all the time.  I know my mother never liked washing the dishes.  I know my dad wasn't joyful about mowing the lawn.  I know that I must feed my birds daily to shut them up.  I didnt think I was submitting to them.  I just thought I was making my life more peaceful.  I don't enjoy it, even if I am submitting to it. 
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67
It is willingly doing what you don't want to, or letting something you don't want be done to you that makes you submissive.  People who are not submissive do not do that (well, I suppose they do, occasionally, but they dont enjoy it nearly as much). 


Hmmmm... You have a point.  I am ammending my difinition to be more severe then...  How's about this:

Submissive (səb misiv)
noun 
As applied to a member of a couple engaged in D/s or M/s practices:  One who is willing to act in a way (or allow actions to be done to them) they would normally refuse to act/allow because the desire to please their partner overpowers whatever unpleasentness was attached to the action in question.

It may not work for everyone but that is how I view it.

Edited to that the willingness clause.. it really is more attitude than action.

< Message edited by Maxwell67 -- 8/5/2008 2:25:02 PM >

(in reply to Missokyst)
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RE: ok, then what IS submissive? - 8/5/2008 2:19:56 PM   
Evility


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"I am here to please you and I will do whatever it takes to make that happen."

Try that on for size.


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RE: ok, then what IS submissive? - 8/5/2008 2:22:06 PM   
Maxwell67


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Evility

"I am here to please you and I will do whatever it takes to make that happen."

Try that on for size.



That works too.

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RE: ok, then what IS submissive? - 8/5/2008 2:29:36 PM   
Missokyst


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I actually see your viewpoint quite often.  The problem as I see it is that some people truly dont think of it as a hardship to make things smoother, better, easier, for their mate.  For some people it just makes sense to do what it takes to make the relationship work.  And for those people the refusal is not even a thought in their head. 

But, because so many have that viewpoint I have amended my profile to one where I have a couple of hard limits and no soft ones.  Now I have some soft ones which can be pushed.

* If you think that submission means I must do things I don't enjoy to fully submit then I do have some limits.
I don't want my name to be added to your property deed (too much responsibility).  I don't want to write checks on your account (I hate handwriting)  I do not want to visit Disneyland every year on your dime (I am starting to get motion sickness)  I do not want a pair of 1 carat diamond earrings (they are hard to sleep with)  Please please please do not make me submit to those things!*


quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67

Hmmmm... You have a point.  I am ammending my difinition to be more severe then...  How's about this:

Submissive (səb misiv)
nounAs applied to a member of a couple engaged in D/s or M/s practices:  One who acts in a way (or allows actions to be done to them) they would normally refuse to act/allow because the desire to please their partner overpowers whatever unpleasentness was attached to the action in question.

It may not work for everyone but that is how I view it.


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RE: ok, then what IS submissive? - 8/5/2008 2:33:03 PM   
XaviersXian


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greetings to all,

To me, submission (and being submissive) is nothing more than obeying my Master's wishes, and working with *his* agenda (not my own).  If this means I am asked to kneel, then I kneel, if I am granted a reprieve from things like that (because of other, non consenting/non comprehending people in the house or out in public or whatever) then so be it.

The postures (and activities) do not make the submissive/slave, the intent does.

This is just my two cents!

well wishes,

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RE: ok, then what IS submissive? - 8/5/2008 2:41:23 PM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Evility

"I am here to please you and I will do whatever it takes to make that happen."

Try that on for size.




It is an excellent theory. Sometimes, though, "whatever it takes" exceeds what the submissive is capable of delivering.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



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RE: ok, then what IS submissive? - 8/5/2008 2:44:11 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
I don't know, but if I walked out on the middle of the street and ordered all the pedestrians to keep on walking to their destinations and continue about their business, I sure won't feel very dominant!



  Well that depends if they are going to a place they loathe surely?
 
the.dark.

 
I don't find unenjoyable or enjoyable acts to be more or less submissive than the other. Both are forms of expression only. But if my will being carried out is based solely on the contigency of it being something they "want" to do, then, in my opinion, what is being expressed isn't submission.


You really only want your property to do shit that she doesn't like, to prove submission, to make your domiannce feel worthwhile?
Maybe I am fortunate.  I do not have to prove my submission by doing only things I loathe for Darcy.  I simply submit to his will.
 
OK, here is the serious responce to your post.
If there was a group of people walking down the street and you told them to keep going to their destinations and they did, of course that isn't dominance.  If, however they were walking down the street and you told them to turn around and go another way and they did because they wanted to for you, then that is dominance.  Whether they want to do it, enjoy it, hate it, love it or whatever holds no relevancy.  The mere fact that they alter their course for you and because of you is in essence submission.  The action has absolutely nothing to do with submission, nor has the liking to do it have anything to do with it, nor does not not liking it - you are the only accountable factor in submission.  (You as in, that the person is doing it for you, because of you, because making you appy/pleased/fulfilled/supported etc).
 
If I cook and enjoy cooking, which I do, for a person, then I am coooking for the pleasure of it.  Serving it to them, serving them with a wonderful meal... that they can enjoy.
If I cook and enjoy cooking, which I do, for Darcy, then I am cooking for the pleasure of knowing how much it fulfils him - it is his desire I do it.  Not because I enjoy it.  But because he does.
 
If people don't get that submission is not about whether you enjoy something or not, but about the intent behind it, then I find that really bizarro.
 
the.dark.


< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 8/5/2008 2:45:05 PM >


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RE: ok, then what IS submissive? - 8/5/2008 2:51:26 PM   
Maxwell67


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst
* If you think that submission means I must do things I don't enjoy to fully submit then I do have some limits.
I don't want my name to be added to your property deed (too much responsibility).  I don't want to write checks on your account (I hate handwriting)  I do not want to visit Disneyland every year on your dime (I am starting to get motion sickness)  I do not want a pair of 1 carat diamond earrings (they are hard to sleep with)  Please please please do not make me submit to those things!*

ROFL 
It is not that I am the type to put someone through all kinds of unpleasentness every day just to feel like we are in a D/s relationship.  But it is the knowledge that she would do as I asked, even if it were something she hated (not a hard limit) simply because she knew it pleases me, and that my saying "good girl" when it was over would make it all worthwhile that really floats my boat.  I am not the type to test this condition just to prove she is submissive.  I'd never make her do something if it wasn't a thing I really wanted, just to see her do it.  What I really want is bad enough.  She loves her collar, for intance, but I know that under other circumstances she would never have considered wearing it.  It is because I want her to wear it that she loves it so.  This is what I mean.

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RE: ok, then what IS submissive? - 8/5/2008 2:59:39 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67
quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx
So what IS submissive?

It was always my impression that being submissive involved doing things your partner wanted you to do which you would not normally want to do.  Hopefully, because the desire to please your partner overpowered whatever unpleasentness was attached to the task at hand.

So if I submit only to the activities I enjoy and wish to do, that isn't submission?

the.dark.


Not by my definition, no.  I am not saying that you should only do the things you dont want to.. or that doing what you want to do is somehow lesser.  I am saying that even in a D/s relationship, ACTUAL submission only happens under those circumstances.  It is willingly doing what you don't want to, or letting something you don't want be done to you that makes you submissive.  People who are not submissive do not do that (well, I suppose they do, occasionally, but they dont enjoy it nearly as much). 


So what if your property was completely in sync with your desires?  So that everything you enjoyed and asked her to do, she did?  Would you alter your desires and get her to do things purposefully that she disliked? To me, that would be testing her submission and if you need to do that to guarentee submission and make justify your dominance I would find that incredibly unhealthy unless testing was part and parcel of the negotiated relationship.
 
Actions are not submission.  You could stick a butt plug up my ass, which I dislike because your the dominant and I submit to it.  But that wouldn't be submitting.  That would be obeying.  It might even be a service.  But submitting?  Nope.  There is a certain mindset bhind submitting that is personal and individual to the inherent needs of the persons involved.  It's a give and take process.  Its selfish and in doing something for the other, one gains a return.
 
the.dark.

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RE: ok, then what IS submissive? - 8/5/2008 3:08:22 PM   
slavegirljoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

So what IS submissive?

For me, it's very simple.  Being submissive is always doing what i am told to do (by the people i regard as having the right to do so), regardless of what i want or what i think or what i like.  It doesn't matter what it is that i am being told to do or whether or not i enjoy doing what i am being told to do or whether i feel like doing it or not.
 
It is about being obedient to the person(s) in charge of me. 
 
When i was a young child, i was submissive to my parents and my older sisters and to my teachers.  When i was a soldier, i was submissive to my superior officers and noncoms.  When i was married, i was submissive to my husband.  And, in all of my sexually intimate relationships, i have been submissive to the man in my life. 
 
Now, i am submissive to my Master.  Whatever He tells me to do, i do, right then, without argument or discussion or question (other than asking for more clarification when needed).
 
i am also submissive to law enforcement officials and to the government and to my employer.  When a policeman signals me to pull over and stop, i pull over and stop, whether i want to or not.  When the government tells me to hand over 1/3 of my earnings to them, i give them the money, whether i want to or not.  When my boss or supervisor tells me to bring fresh coffee and bagels to the conference room, i do it whether i want to or not.  Why?  Because i derive benefits from being obedient to these people.  i get a paycheck for being an obedient employee.  i get to live as an American citizen, with all the rights and benefits that comes with it, for being an obedient member of society.
 
When my Master tells me to get on my knees, i get on my knees, without hesitation, even if i don't really feel like it or i am tired or in the middle of doing something else, and i open my mouth and swallow all of His piss, regardless of how it tastes or whether i want to drink it right then or not.  When He tells me to suck His dick, i immediately get my mouth on Him and suck until He tells me to stop, even when He wakes me from a good night's sleep that i am enjoying very much. 

 
That's not to say that i don't enjoy what i'm doing for Him, because i do.  But, my wanting or not wanting to do something He tells me to do is irrelevant to my doing it.  i do enjoy being submissive.  i do enjoy being kinky.  i do enjoy being told what to do.  But, that doesn't mean that every time He tells me to do something that i really want to do it right then and there.  But, because i am submissive to Him, i do it.  i choose to be in a relationship where obedience to Him is paramount.  Being submissive to Him provides me with the benefits that i enjoy from being in a relationship with Him.
 
joy
Owned servant of Master David


< Message edited by slavegirljoy -- 8/5/2008 3:45:02 PM >


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RE: ok, then what IS submissive? - 8/5/2008 3:10:00 PM   
MasterHermes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

In another thread a submissive wrote of doing things she hadn't expected to have to do to care for her dom.
Many people came down hard on her because it isn't any different than being vanilla.
Sure, running around with a buttplug and being tied up is submissive.
Allowing Him to make most or all of the decisions is submissive.
But, when in a 24/7 relationship, must you sleep on the floor or in a cage to be serving?
Can't I serve by doing what a vanilla would normally do (but probably not as much) by focusing on WHY I'm doing it and WHO I'm doing it for?
Must I wear a collar and leash to be submissive?
I got reamed by a local who asked me one night how I serve Him, (and besides the private things which I did not mention to her) I basically just mentioned the things I *do* *do*. Mostly housework. I also go to the lumber store with Him, and load the lumber on the cart and push the cart, and help Him when He is building things, but...
We are 24/7. There are little ones in the house. I can't kneel at His feet while he's eating, or run around naked on a leash.
My submission is in my heart and my mind. I focus on how to please Him, and try my best to do so.
So what IS submissive?


I dont think a person would be called submissive soley based on being at the reciving end of her own kinky fetishes. On the other hand submission is not always disliking what you are doing either. I believe we can say submission is walking all the way you want to walk plus going an extra mile or more in order to follow him.

It also depends on attitude. She can very well sleep in a cage and get caned daily and kick his ass the moment he forgets to cane her for the day. Enjoying to sleep on the floor or wearing a collar doesnt mean having a submissive personalty.

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RE: ok, then what IS submissive? - 8/5/2008 3:15:27 PM   
lally3


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hmm - so what is it when a D says to me, and they often do (through the course of getting to know) and embracing the fact that we are adults seeking a sustainable, enjoyable relationship)) - that they need to know that i am enjoying what theyre doing.  notwithstanding limits being pushed a bit and being a bit difficult of course.

for me, and for lots here, the pleasure of giving is a full and absolute expression of submission on its own.  his control over me gives him pleasure, gives me pleasure, gives him, gives me... if its difficult sometimes that isnt a greater expression of submission, to me its merely a continuation of the giving thing.

pushing a limit, asking for something the sub has to struggle to do might nudge the dynamic a little, keep it from getting samey and complacent but it isnt a greater expression of the giving she/he already gives mindfully and with care.

to me, the only times things might get seriously unpleasant and miserable would be during punishment.

is it me or am i missing some larger point here?

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RE: ok, then what IS submissive? - 8/5/2008 3:22:11 PM   
Maxwell67


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
So what if your property was completely in sync with your desires?  So that everything you enjoyed and asked her to do, she did?  Would you alter your desires and get her to do things purposefully that she disliked?


I answered this actually, even while you were writing this post, so it is above.. but I think I need to explain more.

When I met her she was this incredibly intelligent and hot little spankophile.  She wanted a dog.  I told her I thought she was a cat person.  Now she loves cats (though she is allergic to them and has to resensitize to them if she is away for more than a few days).  She wanted to become a power player in the business world.  I said she would make a great teacher.  Now she is a tenured professor.  When she was asked in grade school what she wanted to be when she grew up she answered "A liberated woman."  Today when her obligations to the ouside world have been met, she puts on her collar and comes to kneel at my feet, and calls me "Master" and she is grateful to me for bringing her to this place in her life.  THAT is submission.

< Message edited by Maxwell67 -- 8/5/2008 3:26:28 PM >

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RE: ok, then what IS submissive? - 8/5/2008 3:26:11 PM   
gypsygrl


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Submissive isn't anything.  Its a state of being or way of relating.  That's why its so hard to pin down.

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“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin


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RE: ok, then what IS submissive? - 8/5/2008 3:28:02 PM   
Missokyst


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And there is the catch 22...
She loves it.  Even though it is something she might not have wanted before, because you want it, she loves it. 
We often do things because it makes our partner happy.  This is not just a ds thing.  It is a relationship thing.  Nillas do things for their partner all the time.  No one applauds or pats them on the head for making that effort.  Why?  Because in a relationship part of the deal is doing what it takes to make your partner happy, if that is what you want to do.
Let me bring up a for instance.
When I was married I sometimes had to get up at 2 am to cook my husband dinner.  He was a domineering type and I did things for him because it was just easier to comply.  I would not say I was his submissive, though I was a participant in his game.  I played it his way until.. one day he told me "A wife must be subservient to her husband and accept him as the lord who will guide her to salvation."  (he was going through a baptist kick at the time).  That was the last time I wanted to do anything he told me.  I was never his submissive, I was a piece in the game.
After our divorce I met a man for whom I would have done anything.  I did so joyously, with heat, with passion, with .. well.. lets just say I was wet when ever he looked at me.  I did things for him because I wanted to do what ever it took to make him happy.  And I was happy to do it.  Wet, even.  My intent was completely different.
For both men I chose to put their needs first.  But, whereas for my ex husband it was not submission, for my first dominant there was no doubt.
It is all in intent.
With intent, that little catch 22 loses power.
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67
She loves her collar, for intance, but I know that under other circumstances she would never have considered wearing it.  It is because I want her to wear it that she loves it so.  This is what I mean.


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RE: ok, then what IS submissive? - 8/5/2008 3:45:54 PM   
ExSteelAgain


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Sure, most submissives really want to do what they are MADE to do. Kind of rose colored glasses to think otherwise.

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RE: ok, then what IS submissive? - 8/5/2008 3:47:21 PM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

Sure, most submissives really want to do what they are MADE to do. Kind of rose colored glasses to think otherwise.


I loved to feel his power. I often felt it when ordered to do something I would otherwise really not want to do. So it was kind of a love/hate thing...the love winning out.

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RE: ok, then what IS submissive? - 8/5/2008 3:48:54 PM   
CdnExplorer


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For me it seems pretty straight forward - submission is accepting control. It doesn't matter how that control is imposed or what the control is used to make me do. For example I love bondage, but that in itself is just a fetish. When I play with someone and they tie me up, I'm being submissive not because I like or dislike the bondage but because I didn't make the decision that I would be tied up or how it would be done. I'm accepting the sensations that she wants me to experience, whatever my preferences may be.

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RE: ok, then what IS submissive? - 8/5/2008 3:58:34 PM   
slavegirljoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

Sure, most submissives really want to do what they are MADE to do. Kind of rose colored glasses to think otherwise.

Well, i guess i'm not in the "most submissives" group, then, since no one has ever had to MAKE me do anything.  i have always been very compliant.  i am not intimidated, coerced, or forced to do what my Master tells me to do.  i simply do it because He says so.  And, i wouldn't want it any other way.
 
joy
Owned servant of Master David


_____________________________

Don't ask yourself what the world needs; ask yourself what makes you come alive. And then go and do that. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive. ~Dr. Howard Thurman

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RE: ok, then what IS submissive? - 8/5/2008 4:04:11 PM   
ExSteelAgain


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Joy, MADE was in caps italics for a reason.

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