RE: Russia invades Georgia (Full Version)

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Redbaron1979 -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/8/2008 3:08:43 PM)

 
Fair point re Georgia Outlaw.

However we need to see it from Russias point of view. They  see this part of the world as their backyard any inerference by the west gets their backs up. It reminds them of previous agression from Napoleon Hitler etc.

The Chechens worked with a lot of Islamic extremeists and were brutal towards any Russian Army or civilians they got hold of.






TheUtopian -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/8/2008 3:10:59 PM)

I like Putin----and I hope they whup the fuck out of the Georgian Army.... Hopefully it sends a message to Poland. And I hope that dummy in the Whitehouse doesn't dare make the mistake of getting us involved.




- R









DarkSteven -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/8/2008 4:47:46 PM)

Just to inject some levity into the situation...

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080808091149AA3VGTk




Politesub53 -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/8/2008 4:54:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Just to inject some levity into the situation...

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080808091149AA3VGTk


Agreed, even Miss South Carolina could find Georgia on a map.




Owner59 -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/8/2008 7:04:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


Of course one can`t blame Bush for what the Russians do.

I just wish we had a guy at the poker-game of world politics ,as smart as the other guys there.

I don`t think Bush is respected or feared by our friends or enemies.He`s not  going to be able to influence much,unfortunately.

What would a guy like JFK do right now?


Nothing. Russia is not the enemy today that they were in 1963.

Nothing anyone can do. The United States does not have much leverage in that area of the world. Georgia, Azerbaijan, and Armenia are stiill very much in Russia's sphere...not ours. And Russia is very protective of that area because going back to the days of Joseph Stalin, those countries act as a buffer to protect Russia from Turkish nationalism and from muslim extremists. Tensions and conflict between that area and Russia are certainly nothing new.

In the end, the US cant do much other than send diplomats and peace envoys. Russia is not an enemy and we arn't going to threaten them.


Hey cyberdude,ltns.Where ya been?

How about inviting Georgia into NATO?




Owner59 -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/8/2008 7:21:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Redbaron1979


I think we in the West should stay out of this ones let Russia and Gerorgia fight it out.

Russia is a good ally in the struggle againt Islamic Terrorism.





I say fuck Russia and the horse they rode in on.

The practically invented Islamic extremism,in Afghanistan.

Wasn`t Saddam`s arsenal, a soviet one?

If they don`t like what the Chechen's do,they should GTF out of Chechnya.

Same with Georgia.They`ll get fucked there too,eventually.Let it be so.

They are not a friend or a good faith player.The laissez faire attidude about this is a little disturbing.





Outlaw85 -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/8/2008 7:38:36 PM)

lemme make a quote from Leo Tolstoy's  ( a russian author) Hadji Murad.    It's about a Chechen leader and his struggles with the Russians as well as some of the other factions in the 1850s.   The author served in the caucasians (where chechnya is located, and had personally met the real hadji murad, though the book is a historical fictionised account of his adventures)

I'm reading from an original 1912 publication of the english translation of the book, so when I quote pages, that's where I'm quoting from.  

I'm quoting from page 202.   and this will help you to understand why the chechens are so brutal to the russian citizens.  Keep in mind, for the past 200 yeras teh russians have brutalised the chechens in far greater extremes than anything the chechens themselves have done.   Think along the lines of what the United States did to the native americans.  the russians just weren't as successful is all, the chechens more resiliant..        anyways, the quote.   "No one spoke of hatred of the Russians.  The feeling experienced by all the Chechens. from the youngest to the oldeset, was stronger than hate.   It was not hatred, for they did not regard those russian dogs as human beings; but it was such repulsion disgust and perpelxity at the senseless cruelty of these creatures, that the desire to exterminate them--like the desire to exterminate rats, poisonous spiders, or wolves--was as natural an instinct as that of self-preservation.


I could, if nessisary, go into quoting examples of raids the russians did on villages in the region, and while the book is a work of fiction, tolstoy wrote out of his own experience as a soldier there.   The truth of hte matter  is, the chechens have been fighting the russians in a gurilla war for decades, just as vicious as the muhajideen in iraq or elsewhere, but you never hear about it.  the russians never publisize their spetznaz being killed in the vast forests by ambush, or their convoys being blown up.  the chechen side is never publisized, because the russians don't want it publisized.  that way when the chechens attack some theater in moscow, they can publisize that and make themselves out to be victems. 

the chechens have one of the least abilities of all the "seperatist" groups in the world, to broadcast their message to the west.  russia is very effective at blocking it off.  seeing sa their own message cannot reach the outside world and they cannot gain world support, and thus making a legitimate military on miltiary gurilla war much less effective, they are forced into using much less honourable methods. 

they will never just accept russian occupation, never ever.  they will never stop killing russians and russian civilians till they get what they want or they themselves are completely whiped off the planet right down to the last child, and as proud as they are, they would rather that happen then to just submit to russian rule.   

I'm not saying the russians are some vile race that needs to be whiped out, they are an empire, and just like any empire from china, to the united states to ancient rome, they suck and prey on anything and eveyrthing weaker than them to get waht they need to sustain their power and wealth. 

as far as georgia goes,  the US can't just stand by.  they can't.  georgia was there for them, they could NOT just stand by even if they wanted to, no ally would ever come to US aid ever again.    Europe isn't going to tolerate this, things are going to have to die down or escelate into a very serious world wide conflict. 





caitlyn -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/8/2008 8:31:57 PM)

General ...
 
One thing that seems to be missing in this rush to blame ... the Russians may not have sufficient military might to defeat the Georgians. The backbone of the Russian military is heavy tanks and low altitude aircraft used for ground support. The Georgians have a muscular military, the Caucasus seriously hamper the use of armor and Georgia has some serious anti-aircraft capability ... top of the line Russian hardware, modified with western, specifically American, targeting systems.




Vendaval -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/8/2008 11:41:38 PM)

caitlyn,
 
If that is the case, what countries would the Russians likely ask for assistance or alliance?




meatcleaver -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/9/2008 2:24:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Why should this be a problem for the U.S. to tackle?

This is in Europe's back yard...

The Euro  must be awfully weak after all - practically worthless.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Russia just invaded a sovereign nation. A sovereign nation that has tried very hard to join the western developed world. Think back to those bygone days of 1990 and 1991. We definitely had something to say about one nation invading and conquering another back then.

If the US was not wasting blood and capitol in Iraq rapid reaction forces could be deployed to Georgia and Putin would have to decide whether war with Nato was desirable simply to gain control of Georgia.

Your suggestion that Russia is not our enemy shows an fairly unbelieveable lack of knowledge of the world. Putin's Russia is our enemy and nothing about that will change while he controls Russia.




Today the exchange rate is 1 euro = 1.5 dollars. When the euro was introduced the euro was 90 US cents or there about. No doubt that is because it is the US that decided to go into debt to fight a needless war and not Europe. So the idea that the euro must be almost worthless is rather a laugh.

The US and no one else will interfer in this militarily simple because no one wants a world war and the sad truth is that a small insignificant country without oil or any other vitsal resources is expendable.

But hey, the US invaded Iraq and got away with it because no one wanted to start a world war and now its Russia's turn.




meatcleaver -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/9/2008 2:34:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

I was referencing another kind of currency Thadius.

Yes its sad, sad that everyone who bashes America for helping the people of Iraq now bash America for this, when it should belong more to the Europeans than the United States.



You never invaded Iraq to help the Iraqi people, you went to secure resources through regime change because they alledgedly held WMD. The fact that they had no WMD and most of the world knew that and the whole affair was so badly planned and managed you more or less started a civil war and had to stay and stablize the situation because to cut and run would have even further seriously reduced the US's credibility in the world is another matter.


Iraq has nothing to do with Europe. The only beneficiary of the US invasion is Israel, US's allie above all other allies. Why should Europe do the US's and Israel's dirty work? The invasion had nothing to do with peace and security for the region as France and Germany pointed out when they refused to take part and everything to do with US imperial ambitions.




Hippiekinkster -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/9/2008 2:49:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheUtopian

I like Putin----and I hope they whup the fuck out of the Georgian Army.... Hopefully it sends a message to Poland. And I hope that dummy in the Whitehouse doesn't dare make the mistake of getting us involved.




- R







Me, I'm hoping for a reconstituted Prussia, with Berlin as the Capitol.




caitlyn -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/9/2008 5:45:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval 
If that is the case, what countries would the Russians likely ask for assistance or alliance?


The Russians have enough tanks, planes and men ... that isn't the issue. The issue is the cost of getting that force through the single path through the Causases, and supplying them once there. The issue is the will to sustain the high casualty rates that are reasonably likely.
 
What it looks like so far, is that the Russians will mostly be doing this via a strong air campaign, which likely offers the best chance to get the result they want.
 
I think they would ask meatcleaver and hippykinkster for assistance, but they are still awaiting approval. [;)] 




meatcleaver -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/9/2008 8:33:01 AM)

I'm not sure Russia will have the will in the long term. Despite them still smarting at being humiliated when the west didn't fullfill its promises of economic aid when Russia opened up its economy and their economy collapsed through bad western economic advice and now wanting to impose their will to show the world they are back, they are still dependent on trade with the west, even if the west is dependent on them. Once they realise that western countries will trust them less and hedge their bets by not relying so much on Russian oil and gas, some lowly Russian official will point out to the Russian leadership the stupidity of Russia flexing its muscles all too readily. Also, many Russians are still angry about Putin's Chechna war and the heavy Russian casaulties in that.




Moloch -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/9/2008 10:19:08 AM)

quote:

.

What it looks like so far, is that the Russians will mostly be doing this via a strong air campaign, which likely offers the best chance to get the result they want.

I think they would ask meatcleaver and hippykinkster for assistance, b
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval 
If that is the case, what countries would the Russians likely ask for assistance or alliance?


The Russians have enough tanks, planes and men ... that isn't the issue. The issue is the cost of getting that force through the single path through the Causases, and supplying them once there. The issue is the will to sustain the high casualty rates that are reasonably likely.
 
What it looks like so far, is that the Russians will mostly be doing this via a strong air campaign, which likely offers the best chance to get the result they want.
 
I think they would ask meatcleaver and hippykinkster for assistance, but they are still awaiting approval. [;)] 


Georgian terrain is somewhat similiar to Afghanistan Plenty of mountains, the Russians are asking for an ass kicking.

A Russian truck loaded with Russian pasports shows up in south Ossetia and hands out Russian passports like candy, then BOOM the go on television  "We must protect Russian citizens"  and they invade Georgia. I know ossetians will disagree, but if they knew their heritage they wouldnt be trying to steal Georgian land in the frist place...




popeye1250 -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/9/2008 11:11:40 AM)

Caitlyn, could they be off to join the "Abraham Lincoln Brigade"?
That's the organization for middle aged American men with ponytails who "missed out" on Vietnam ("I was in college man!") who want to "do something" about "injustice" in foreign countries.




Moloch -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/9/2008 11:25:42 AM)

LMAO!!! popeye you are a swell guy for a new englander...




Outlaw85 -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/9/2008 9:08:25 PM)

quote:

Also, many Russians are still angry about Putin's Chechna war and the heavy Russian casaulties in that.


muahahaha!  -points to chechen flag on wall-

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/5681/chechnyaxdyn5.jpg








TheUtopian -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/11/2008 6:09:48 PM)

quote:

The Russians have enough tanks, planes and men ... that isn't the issue. The issue is the cost of getting that force through the single path through the Causases, and supplying them once there. The issue is the will to sustain the high casualty rates that are reasonably likely.
 
What it looks like so far, is that the Russians will mostly be doing this via a strong air campaign, which likely offers the best chance to get the result they want.



Didn't last too long did it, BG? [:D]  So much for those Israeli advisors, huh?

If I was Putin - I'd tell that clown act in the oval office '' You pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan....and we'll pull out of Gerogia ''  ; }




- R




cloudboy -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/11/2008 7:01:17 PM)

quote:

Your suggestion that Russia is not our enemy shows an fairly unbelieveable lack of knowledge of the world. Putin's Russia is our enemy and nothing about that will change while he controls Russia.


How exactly do you figure that?




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