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RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/12/2008 6:04:09 AM   
RealityLicks


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
To your second point, are you suggesting that it would be okay for the US to invade Cuba, and force the Castro regime out of power? 


Not really.  Not unless they could have thought of some way to get Cuba to strike first and begin an armed conflict - then it might be okay.  Hmmm.

Course, Fidel was 20 times the leader Saakashvili is, which is why Russia's demand that he be removed will carry more weight in the hearts and minds of the electorate than the invasion itself.  

Incidentally, that isn't the same as deposing him.  It's meant to be embarassing but persuasive and it shows a great understanding of the mindsets of the players involved.  Putin is halfway round the world while the west is still putting it's boots on.

(in reply to Thadius)
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RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/12/2008 6:04:51 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
 
Myself, I would give America's seat in NATO to the Georgians in a minute. NATO is a military alliance designed to prevent/fight a war that is long over. Like all useless things, it's now hard at work looking around for way to justify it's usefullness. Given time, NATO will cause the war is was designed to prevent.


Shock!!! I couldn't agree more. The west is finding reasons for NATO to remain active and its having a destabilizing effect.

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RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/12/2008 6:11:08 AM   
RealityLicks


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Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		I couldn't disagree more.  Admitting Georgia to Nato serves no-ones purpose but the arms trade.  Georgia (and Ukraine, the real prize) should take a leaf from the Scandinavian book and learn how to get along with the Russians, while maintaining their own identity.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/12/2008 6:25:23 AM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
To your second point, are you suggesting that it would be okay for the US to invade Cuba, and force the Castro regime out of power? 


Not really.  Not unless they could have thought of some way to get Cuba to strike first and begin an armed conflict - then it might be okay.  Hmmm.

Course, Fidel was 20 times the leader Saakashvili is, which is why Russia's demand that he be removed will carry more weight in the hearts and minds of the electorate than the invasion itself.  

Incidentally, that isn't the same as deposing him.  It's meant to be embarassing but persuasive and it shows a great understanding of the mindsets of the players involved.  Putin is halfway round the world while the west is still putting it's boots on.


Oh it wouldn't be all that hard to force Cuba to strike out against those that oppose the regime, sending a few hundred Marines out with passports that granted US citizenship to the masses, would probably spark the same sort of reaction... Of course using the "We are just sending in troops to prevent any violent conflicts".  See what I mean?

However I do agree with the premise of the US should not be using conflicts like this to force political positions.  At least that is what I think you are suggesting.

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When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/12/2008 6:30:12 AM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		But a better comparison would be to move that scenario on a step.  You peacekeepers are in place, then they come under attack. Result!  Send in the MiGs.

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/12/2008 6:37:48 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		You mean something like...

http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/us.rips.cruelty.html
quote:

The Clinton administration filed a formal protest Monday with the government of President Fidel Castro, calling on Havana to "immediately cease these barbaric practices," said a State Department aide. News of the attacks at Guantanamo comes amid a fierce crackdown by Cuban authorities on residents who try to leave the country. On Thursday, Cuban patrols killed three people who tried to swim to a U.S.-registered speedboat near the town of Cojimar. The captain, a U.S. citizen and Florida Keys resident, was injured in a hail of bullets. A fifth man, also from South Florida, escaped. In separate incidents Friday and Monday, authorities seized boats near Havana and Santa Cruz del Norte, arresting seven U.S. residents as they sought to help scores of relatives flee the island.




_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/12/2008 6:42:52 AM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		Difference is, there isn't an autonomous, pro-US province in Cuba but nice try, Thadius.

I enjoyed trading opinions with you, see you alter.

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/12/2008 7:17:38 AM   
cloudboy


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quote:

Myself, I would give America's seat in NATO to the Georgians in a minute. NATO is a military alliance designed to prevent/fight a war that is long over. Like all useless things, it's now hard at work looking around for way to justify it's usefullness. Given time, NATO will cause the war is was designed to prevent.


The risk-reward for Georgia joining NATO does not compute. I agree. Not sure I agree with your characterization of NATO.



< Message edited by cloudboy -- 8/12/2008 7:19:44 AM >

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/12/2008 10:50:55 AM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

General ...
 
You have to wonder about those that draw linkage between what happened in Iraq and what happened in Georgia, almost insinuating that the latter is excused by the former. Thats about the only excuse President Bush hasn't tried in Iraq. It comes across as using for political gain, something that is really just more people dying.
 
On point, Russia will do whatever it takes to keep NATO out of Georgia, or vice-versa as the case may be. Western anti-ship missiles and air bases would be a lot more than a serious threat to Russia internally, but would also put a cap on the bottle that allows the Russian Navy access to the Mediterranean.
 
Myself, I would give America's seat in NATO to the Georgians in a minute. NATO is a military alliance designed to prevent/fight a war that is long over. Like all useless things, it's now hard at work looking around for way to justify it's usefullness. Given time, NATO will cause the war is was designed to prevent.


Caitlyn, I agree, the U.S. should have gotten out of NATO in 1988.
I don't get this whole "Allie" thing.
You mean people in the State Dept or White House decide that a certain country is going to be our "Allie" and "The American People" have to go along with it blindly with absolutely no input or say in the matter???
Who the fuck *isn't* our "Allie?"
As for building missle pads and radars in Eastern Europe to "protect Europe" as an American Citizen and Taxpayer I *certainly* don't want to pay for that!
Let the E.U. pay for it!
And as for a "Coalition of the willing" by our "Allies" in Iraq, they were all *PAID* to be there!
We couldn't even depend on our E.U. "Allies" to take care of Kosovo if it even needed to be "taken care of."
Remember the Clinton catch phrases "Ethnic Cleansing" and "Peacekeepers?"
Only the college kids working in "The Dorm" didn't know which ethnicity was being,....."cleansed."

"We should avoid foreign entanglements."
        - George Washington-

George Santayana was right.
George Washington was right too!

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/12/2008 11:11:51 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

As for building missle pads and radars in Eastern Europe to "protect Europe" as an American Citizen and Taxpayer I *certainly* don't want to pay for that!
Let the E.U. pay for it!
And as for a "Coalition of the willing" by our "Allies" in Iraq, they were all *PAID* to be there!
We couldn't even depend on our E.U. "Allies" to take care of Kosovo if it even needed to be "taken care of."
Remember the Clinton catch phrases "Ethnic Cleansing" and "Peacekeepers?"
Only the college kids working in "The Dorm" didn't know which ethnicity was being,....."cleansed."

"We should avoid foreign entanglements."
       - George Washington-

George Santayana was right.
George Washington was right too!


They are not NATO missile sites, they are American. The vast majority of Europeans don't want American missile sites in Poland or Czech, in fact most Poles and Czechs don't want them either.

Why should we pay for something we don't want?

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/12/2008 11:14:18 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

As for building missle pads and radars in Eastern Europe to "protect Europe" as an American Citizen and Taxpayer I *certainly* don't want to pay for that!
Let the E.U. pay for it!
And as for a "Coalition of the willing" by our "Allies" in Iraq, they were all *PAID* to be there!
We couldn't even depend on our E.U. "Allies" to take care of Kosovo if it even needed to be "taken care of."
Remember the Clinton catch phrases "Ethnic Cleansing" and "Peacekeepers?"
Only the college kids working in "The Dorm" didn't know which ethnicity was being,....."cleansed."

"We should avoid foreign entanglements."
      - George Washington-

George Santayana was right.
George Washington was right too!


They are not NATO missile sites, they are American. The vast majority of Europeans don't want American missile sites in Poland or Czech, in fact most Poles and Czechs don't want them either.

Why should we pay for something we don't want?


Meat, the Taxpayers in the U.S. don't want them either!

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/12/2008 11:24:12 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

As for building missle pads and radars in Eastern Europe to "protect Europe" as an American Citizen and Taxpayer I *certainly* don't want to pay for that!
Let the E.U. pay for it!
And as for a "Coalition of the willing" by our "Allies" in Iraq, they were all *PAID* to be there!
We couldn't even depend on our E.U. "Allies" to take care of Kosovo if it even needed to be "taken care of."
Remember the Clinton catch phrases "Ethnic Cleansing" and "Peacekeepers?"
Only the college kids working in "The Dorm" didn't know which ethnicity was being,....."cleansed."

"We should avoid foreign entanglements."
     - George Washington-

George Santayana was right.
George Washington was right too!


They are not NATO missile sites, they are American. The vast majority of Europeans don't want American missile sites in Poland or Czech, in fact most Poles and Czechs don't want them either.

Why should we pay for something we don't want?


Meat, the Taxpayers in the U.S. don't want them either!


Such is the nature of western democracy, we can decide which soap opera we want to watch, what colour shoes we want to wear but we can't decide important things like national interest, we plebs are too dumb for that.

We aren't too dumb really, we just don't have the interests of the rich and powerful at heart.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/12/2008 12:15:15 PM   
Outlaw85


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Joined: 8/3/2008
Status: offline 		there were lots of reasons for the iraq war, oil was was least of them.  saddam offered oil to the united states at 13 dollars a barrel or something like that.   look at gas prices.  we haven't taken it.  I don't entirely agree with the iraq war, but it was definately not for oil, we could have gotten it cheaper from saddam.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/12/2008 1:36:27 PM   
meatcleaver


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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Outlaw85

there were lots of reasons for the iraq war, oil was was least of them.  saddam offered oil to the united states at 13 dollars a barrel or something like that.   look at gas prices.  we haven't taken it.  I don't entirely agree with the iraq war, but it was definately not for oil, we could have gotten it cheaper from saddam.


Long term access to resources is far more important than a short term price, especially with a consumption rate the US has.

It doesn't change the argument in this thread though. Russia is following a precedent set by NATO in Kosovo. The US invasion of Iraq, a sovereign nation takes away any moral authority the US has in criticizing Russia.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/12/2008 1:40:40 PM   
RealityLicks


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Joined: 10/23/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Outlaw85

there were lots of reasons for the iraq war, oil was was least of them.  saddam offered oil to the united states at 13 dollars a barrel or something like that.   look at gas prices.  we haven't taken it.  I don't entirely agree with the iraq war, but it was definately not for oil, we could have gotten it cheaper from saddam.


Or maybe Bush thought the fact that Saddam had started an oil exchange in Iraq which traded in the Euro and not the dollar was an economic threat?  I don't know, I'm very naive about these things.

(in reply to Outlaw85)
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RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/12/2008 1:47:17 PM   
Thadius


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Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		*fast reply*

Let's also not forget a few of the first targets the Russians hit during their trip into Georgia... the oil pipelines.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/12/2008 1:54:22 PM   
RealityLicks


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Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		I thought the pipelines were all intact?  All goes to my earlier point, though. Namely that with so many new pipelines due to be built through the region, stability is needed, not vain attempts to usurp a province which wants secession. 

Georgia was won over to the west partly by the affluence of EU states.  Why not give that a chance to swing the south ossetians, rather than try and compel them to toe the line?

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Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/12/2008 1:57:14 PM   
Outlaw85


Posts: 49
Joined: 8/3/2008
Status: offline 		thadius is right.  this is about money like everything.


as for iraq, more than anything, iraq is a pawn in a giant chess game.  sometimes you move a piece on a chess board to distract and draw your opponent into exposing themselves so that you can attack them with something else.   Saddam was a douche, and he kept playing games with UN thinking that everyone was too week and timid to actually deal with him, that was his own words.

but bigger than that, iraq was a gambit, by attacking a muslim country, the us forced al qaeda, who wants to be known as teh "protectors of islam" to use more of their resources to attack the US in iraq, thus having less resources to attack the US on their home turf.  it's also drawing out the al qaeda leader as they go to iraq to replace the ones that are killed.  the point is, is that the iraq war is going to drain al qaeda of resources and power much faster than it will drain the US.  it's a battle of endurance.

not saying its right, but I also believe the people of iraq will be better off in the long run in a democratic nation, it's just going to take a long long time for things to get better just like post american civil war, and shoot, we're STILL feeling the aftershocks of the american civil war, these people will not feel them for as long I think because they have our money building them back up.

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/12/2008 2:04:55 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

I thought the pipelines were all intact?  All goes to my earlier point, though. Namely that with so many new pipelines due to be built through the region, stability is needed, not vain attempts to usurp a province which wants secession. 

Georgia was won over to the west partly by the affluence of EU states.  Why not give that a chance to swing the south ossetians, rather than try and compel them to toe the line?


Good point, thus is why I wonder why Russia felt the need to put troops in what was still a Georgian territory, to flare up even more tensions.  It was pretty obvious that Georgia was being asked to toe the line in order to join NATO, and if they began any kind of offensive against the people of South Ossetia, Russia would have been given a mandate to put folks in on the ground... Know what I mean?

For example there are a few movements in the southwestern US that wish for succession, if Mexico was to come in with military and claim they were protecting what was at one time their territory and their people, would they be able to claim that the US was invading Texas when the National Guard came to push them out? 

Anyways, it is strange how some of the biggest conflicts in history have resulted from some of the smallest obscure places.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/12/2008 2:06:13 PM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		I just checked and the pipeline has not been hit but closed as a precaution.  After a week of fighting, I'm sure the Russians would have destroyed it if that was their intention. 

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gksl3HsyKUWEkZZN2ZVD5TEhIi0g

Although admittedly, many seem to be missing their aim just now.

What purpose would be served by bombing the pipeline, anyway?

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 120
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