Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Russia invades Georgia


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Russia invades Georgia Page: <<   < prev  5 6 7 [8] 9   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/13/2008 1:03:43 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

EU should offer NATO membership to Georgia and Ukraine as soon as possible.Russia will have to learn to deal with independent neighbors...the day's of vassal states on her borders are done with and Putin needs to understand this..


O yeah, the EU should back Russia into a corner. That's a bright idea. No risk there.
So what do you suggest,allow Russia to subjugate sovereign nations while the EU and America does nothing.Let's not forget that Georgia has sent troops to Iraq and was intending to send troops to Afghanastan,they were willing to pay with blood to join NATO...


NATO set the precedent in Kosovo that Russia is following in Georgia. America subjugated a sovereign nation with its invasion of Iraq.

The problem rises from the fact that the west is telling Russia to do as we say, not as we do. That stance has no moral authority and no self respecting nation is going to allow itself to be humiliated by being seen to kow tow to a bunch of hypocrites.

That is why I bang on about the need for the west to be governed by the rule of law but unfortunately, western democracies act like totalitarian thugs when it comes to foreign policy.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/13/2008 1:19:01 AM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline 		Funny how no matter what or where something bad is happening in the world....there are always people who cant wait to find a way to blame it on America.

Classic.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/13/2008 1:39:33 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Funny how no matter what or where something bad is happening in the world....there are always people who cant wait to find a way to blame it on America.

Classic.


Whose blaming America? Not me.

I don't agree with what Russia has done but the fact remains they have taken the precedence from NATO's action in Kosovo. If you read any media of quality you would have read that Putin said at the time, NATO giving Kosovo independence was illegal under international law (and it was!!!!). He also went on to say, Russia will use NATO's actions as a precedence in their disagreement with Georgia.

And whether you like it or not, the USA and lapdog DID INVADE a sovereign nation.

My point is that the west complaining about Russian action is hypocritical because the west does the same!

What's your problem?

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/13/2008 1:42:12 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to cyberdude611)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/13/2008 2:38:54 AM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline 		It doesn't matter really whether what russia is doing is right or wrong, it never has and it never will. Why? Because they(russia) are a real potential enemy, and we aren't going to mess up that relationship with anything more than idle chatter. The only way we'll do anything is if they interfere with our bullying, or we both want the same piece of land.

And why would Russia care what we say anyway, we lied to invade a country, they are merely mimicing us. They just didn't go to the UN, LOL, as if that would have matter, in the case of Iraq. We'd have simply provoked Iraq, and when they shot something down declared war.

It's all the same script, over and over and over again.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/13/2008 3:49:54 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		What's right or wrong isn't dependent on what we or others are telling Russia or whether or not there was one more UN resolution on Iraq, meatcleaver. By your reasoning, it is now alright for the United States to invade Canada and Mexico in order to buffer herself against Russia and Venezuela because there's now precedent - and Russia has no moral authority to tell us what to do.

It's faulty reasoning.

And to your other point, pure democracy is no more than mob rule, it's chaos and anarchy. And I wouldn't want to live under one.

So representative democracy protects the rich, so what. I'm okay with that, mostly because anyone can be the rich under this system.

I have no idea what you're ranting about regarding the rule of law because everything is in place in the west. Elections, courts, debate... the United Nations... what do you feel is missing?

Riots?




quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

NATO set the precedent in Kosovo that Russia is following in Georgia. America subjugated a sovereign nation with its invasion of Iraq.

The problem rises from the fact that the west is telling Russia to do as we say, not as we do. That stance has no moral authority and no self respecting nation is going to allow itself to be humiliated by being seen to kow tow to a bunch of hypocrites.

That is why I bang on about the need for the west to be governed by the rule of law but unfortunately, western democracies act like totalitarian thugs when it comes to foreign policy.


< Message edited by Sanity -- 8/13/2008 3:56:38 AM >

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/13/2008 4:47:26 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
Cyberdude, when have you ever been to Georgia or Russia for that matter?

(in reply to cyberdude611)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/13/2008 4:53:33 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

So what do you suggest,allow Russia to subjugate sovereign nations while the EU and America does nothing.Let's not forget that Georgia has sent troops to Iraq and was intending to send troops to Afghanastan,they were willing to pay with blood to join NATO...


Its more important to have better relations with Russia than it is with Georgia. Put another way, why would Russia sacrifice its relations with the USA over a country like Bolivia? It doesn't make sense.

Part of what would benefit the US is a better understanding of its own limitations.

Basically the Georgians crossed the line, Russia was punishing Georgia for moving into the separatist region of South Ossetia to claim back territory that has been effectively under Russian control since 1992 but also for turning its back on Moscow and throwing in with the West, seeking to join NATO and cozying up to Washington.

The Georgians have to know that they are under Russia's sphere of influence, not the US's. Nothing out there in the world is going to change this. Its the way it is.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 8/13/2008 5:02:53 AM >

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/13/2008 5:34:07 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		Effectively, but not legally.  What is the purpose of Russia having at least 50 APCs moving into Gori this morning?  Protecting the Georgians from themselves?  They are moving closer and closer to the Georgian capital.

Russia isn't even honoring the cease fire they agreed to just yesterday.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/13/2008 6:00:40 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

What's right or wrong isn't dependent on what we or others are telling Russia or whether or not there was one more UN resolution on Iraq, meatcleaver. By your reasoning, it is now alright for the United States to invade Canada and Mexico in order to buffer herself against Russia and Venezuela because there's now precedent - and Russia has no moral authority to tell us what to do.



Not at all. Russia invaded to protect Russian citizens and there is more than enough evidence to support Russia's case that Georgia was killing and expelling Russian citizens from South Ossetia. If the Canadian government was killing Americans, I'm sure America would then take some action.

The predendence set over Kosovo has legitimized Russian claims for independence of South Ossetia. The Georgians have been stupid and played right into Russian hands.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/13/2008 6:06:28 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

So representative democracy protects the rich, so what. I'm okay with that, mostly because anyone can be the rich under this system.



That's fine but you have fallen for the big lie, social mobility in American society is far less than you think, the political establishment in America has changes little. You are thinking because a whole class has got richer, people must be climbing socially.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

I have no idea what you're ranting about regarding the rule of law because everything is in place in the west. Elections, courts, debate... the United Nations... what do you feel is missing?

Riots?



America and other western nation in their foreign policy don't adhere to international law any more than dictators do. Hence, Iraq.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/13/2008 7:38:33 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Funny how no matter what or where something bad is happening in the world....there are always people who cant wait to find a way to blame it on America.

Classic.
 



Ah,the everyone else is crazy defense.

Classic.


As leader of the free world,the POTUS gets the credit(ie,Reagan/Berlin wall) and the blame.Even if it`s not directly in his sphere of influence.Unless you want to change that un-written rule(just for Bush),it applies to all presidents.

Just yesterday you were saying that Russia, b/c of world opinion or something of a sort,stopped it`s advance.McCain said as much. None of that is true.Russia was taking a breather and picking new targets.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080813/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia


Fact is,Russia is going to do what it wants,no matter what the armchair wanna-be generals say.

We really can`t blame Bush Sr. for Saddam`s massacres after the 1st gulf war,after imploring them to stage and publicly supporting an overthrow there.But he can be held responsible for setting the up-risers up to fail and for not stopping the tank columns that did the massacring.He didn`t even try.


We really can`t blame JFK for the failure at the Bay of Pigs.
But he can be held responsible for setting the rebels up to fail and for not helping with air cover.

This has the same smell(stink) to it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The problem is, the US appears impotent to do anything.Bush is as uselful and affective as a bucket of water on a forest fire.

We`re not going to be able to help our new ally,after promising them the world.

And even if we did,there is no reserve force to deploy.We got a two front war going on now.

Bush`s responsibility lies in the LTS of trying to isolate Russia,which is failing.A strategy McCain embraces, too.We need a new strategy,sooner than later.

You think with what happened to the Russian during WWII,they`re going to allow a non-ally to mass weapons and soldiers along one of it`s borders?Bad calculation.Real bad.

Only someone who would think that stranding an army in the middle of Arabia(w/out a exit plan), could think that this was a good idea too.

What makes Bush look really bad,is that he meddled in their affairs and poked at Russia with a stick and is ineffectual in helping the Georgians ,now that the bear is loose and killing them.Talk about a fuck up.

And now that the bushies have been successful at starting what might be WWIII,they`re now exploiting this fuck-up for political purposes.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/08/13/mccain_supports_georgia/

McCain told more than 2,000 voters that he spoke with President Mikhail Saakashvili of Georgia, who offered his "heartfelt thanks" for US support.

"And I told him that I know I speak for every American when I say to him, 'Today, we are all Georgians,' " McCain declared to loud applause.

At a huge outdoor rally hours later in the Georgian capital of Tbilisi, Saakashvili mentioned what McCain had said, and the crowd applauded.

Even as Russia said it was halting its offensive, McCain told voters in York that Moscow is using "violence against Georgia to send a signal" to "any country that chooses to associate with the West."

Russian leaders, he said, must realize they risk "the benefits they enjoy from being part of the civilized world."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I guess the McCain`s lobbyist-for-Georgia/aid, arranged the call.

This is the reckless kind of stuff that started this war and we don`t need more.

Get a load of this.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/12/mccain-putin-wants-to-restore-the-old-russian-empire/

He then accused Putin of wanting to restore Russia to the days of czardom, when a monarchy exerted broad control over parts of Asia and eastern Europe.

“I think it’s very clear that Russian ambitions are to restore the old Russian Empire,” he said. “Not the Soviet Union, but the Russian Empire.”

McCain is nuts with that analysis.Just clueless.

Meddling,taunting,poking,saying dumb stuff,antagonizing,fueling and arming,then running for cover when the shit hits.

And then we get the"hey,don`t look at us" routine, from the fun loving neo-cons. 

Classic.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 8/13/2008 8:22:29 AM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to cyberdude611)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/13/2008 2:14:07 PM   
Outlaw85


Posts: 49
Joined: 8/3/2008
Status: offline
quote:



So representative democracy protects the rich, so what. I'm okay with that, mostly because anyone can be the rich under this system.


sure, if you have an iq of 180 with no mental illnesses or some sort of especially entertaining talent.   The days where any man could become rich and prosperous in this country are gone when we ran out of land to steal from the indians >_>  not that everything is all doom and gloom.  we can bitch and complain about the government in this country legally xD  It might not effect any change, but at least we're not sent off to some torture chamber for re-education, though I think some on this forum might enjoy that.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/13/2008 2:30:45 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Outlaw, the most frightening thing I find, is that most people in the west can't see when their government's foreign policy is no different from that of a tin pot dictator, believing that just because they have a vote every four or five years they are really free and their government must be as decent as they are. 

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Outlaw85)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/13/2008 3:05:54 PM   
subveritas


Posts: 25
Joined: 7/22/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Outlaw, the most frightening thing I find, is that most people in the west can't see when their government's foreign policy is no different from that of a tin pot dictator, believing that just because they have a vote every four or five years they are really free and their government must be as decent as they are. 


I agree I live in the middle of the scary belt buckle of the bible belt. Either way though not enough people question what the politicians say as well as the news media. Most around here think Rush sits at the right hand of God along with Jesus. Scares me sometimes to listen to people talk, and I hate being told I am not patriotic because I didn't support invading a sovereign nation in the first place, nor how we have truly managed to stir up a wonderful hornets nest in the Middle east.

But back to the reason of this thread the Georgia issue. I think neither side is showing to it's best at the moment. I think Russia over reacted, and Georgia realising they have bitten off more than they could chew started back pedaling and trying to get a truce. However I think that both need to be forced to sit down and figure out how to solve this without more people dying.  I think that my countries recent actions have really made the rest of the world stop considering other countries sovereignty in lieu of solving an annoying problem with that particular country. Though the US has always been very good about forgetting about other countries sovereignty, as well as our own Monroe Doctrine which says we will police our own hemisphere.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

What's right or wrong isn't dependent on what we or others are telling Russia or whether or not there was one more UN resolution on Iraq, meatcleaver. By your reasoning, it is now alright for the United States to invade Canada and Mexico in order to buffer herself against Russia and Venezuela because there's now precedent - and Russia has no moral authority to tell us what to do.

It's faulty reasoning.


Sanity I think the only reason we haven't is cause well who wants Mexico, no offense to anyone who lives there but that seems to be the sentiment I hear a lot of here in Texas. and well Canada went to school there would be a beauracracy nightmare. Besides we would only do that if Bin Laden bought land there. Remember Baja Mexico we kept the Japanese from buying it cause we didn't want another powerful nation to have a border with us.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/13/2008 3:15:03 PM   
Outlaw85


Posts: 49
Joined: 8/3/2008
Status: offline 		right with ya buddy.   to start sounding like a radical left, I personally see all soldiers at guantanamo bay are traitors to our country.  just by going along with what is going on there to me is betrayal of their oath, to protect the constitution and our country from all enemies forign and domestic.   and that's just one thing, I could list a dozon other grievances,  such as this right here   http://nospank.net/jrc.pdf

sure,  electricuting children for whining or swearing or talking without permission might get some people off on this forum, but to me it's legal child abuse financed by your taxes.  and I'm speaking as one of those children that was put in places like this.  Knowing what they feel and what they're going through, I have more justification than most people to take up arms against my government, start blowing shit up and killing police officers.  and somtimes I even want to.  And sometimes I think I'm a coward for not doing so, especially knowing I could end the abuse in that building with one day.  I'd like, however, to think that it's because I know that no matter how many people I hurt in retribution it'll never take away the pain of what my government did to me.  I'll have to live with it, and i'll only be destroying myself.  I'd also like to think I'm a moral person. 

The US government betrayed me, the US government is highly hypocritical, devious, out right evil.   Of course the US government also gives me a pension and takes care of all my medical bills so that I don't wind up on the streets again like when I was a teenager.  Guess they're not all bad.  Can't think of many other places I'd like to live.

The most frightening thing I find meatcleaver, is how we as human beings haven't managed to come up with something better.    mob rule to me?   sounds pretty good at times.   I think we as humans just need to come to terms with the fact that we're no better than animals, things have changed a lot in 10,000 years but at the same time very little has changed.  We're just a bunch of packs of lions fighting over the resources of the savannah, and I think once we lose our ego and self importance and realise just exactly what we are, we might make some progress by working with our nature instead of fighting so hard against it.  much akin to breaking a horse through brute force as we did long ago and training a horse by working with it's nature as we do now.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/13/2008 3:23:51 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		Well we don't have to worry about this one anymore.... Russia has halted at the request of Obama.

“It was a bad crisis for the world. It required tough words but also a smart approach to call on the international community to step in. And I’m very, very happy that the Senator’s request for a ceasefire has been complied with by President Medvedev.” -Tim Kaine Gov of Virgina (rumored to be on Obama's VP short list)




_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to Outlaw85)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/13/2008 3:37:52 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Well we don't have to worry about this one anymore.... Russia has halted at the request of Obama.

“It was a bad crisis for the world. It required tough words but also a smart approach to call on the international community to step in. And I’m very, very happy that the Senator’s request for a ceasefire has been complied with by President Medvedev.” -Tim Kaine Gov of Virgina (rumored to be on Obama's VP short list)





You've got to give the man credit for the cheek of it.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/13/2008 3:40:33 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		It was definitely an interesting spin.  I do give him credit for that.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/13/2008 3:48:49 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Well we don't have to worry about this one anymore.... Russia has halted at the request of Obama.

“It was a bad crisis for the world. It required tough words but also a smart approach to call on the international community to step in. And I’m very, very happy that the Senator’s request for a ceasefire has been complied with by President Medvedev.” -Tim Kaine Gov of Virgina (rumored to be on Obama's VP short list)





Well he isnt the only one making capital from misery.

"And I told him that I know I speak for every American when I say to him, 'Today, we are all Georgians,' " McCain declared to loud applause."

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Russia invades Georgia - 8/13/2008 4:05:15 PM   
TheUtopian


Posts: 259
Status: offline
quote:


Part of what would benefit the US is a better understanding of its own limitations.



Limitations? If I didn't know any better, I'd say there's a lota mf's out there thinking Hancock's gonna show up pretty soon...





- R



_____________________________

Vae Victus! - Woe to the conquered....

My tears are the cure for cancer - I sweat testosterone, bleed black, and piss excellence.

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 160
Page:   <<   < prev  5 6 7 [8] 9   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Russia invades Georgia Page: <<   < prev  5 6 7 [8] 9   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094