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Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/9/2008 11:29:17 AM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		       In less than three weeks, barring some dramatic development, Senator Obama will take the podium in a packed football stadium, to accept the Democratic nomination for President of the United States.  It will be the most important speech he has ever given.  He knocked it out of the park in '04, catapulting himself to this point.  Can he do it again?

      The purpose of this speech will be very different from that one.  Getting people's attention is not the same as unifying them.   He's really good at the big puffs of air called oratory.  That, and a giant blank canvas of "change," made him a star then.  Now he has to unify the crowd by giving them a common vision of a common enemy.  He has to start building a wave of support among the independents that won't crest until the October debates.  This time, he has to define the obstacle.  George Bush (the Second) isn't going to win him any more converts.  So who, or what, is it going to be?

      Mass movements can rise and spread without belief in a God, but never without belief in a devil.  Eric Hoffer, The True Believer. 


       Barry doesn't have to go that way.  He might even squeek out a win just close enough to make his presidency a failure, instead of just his candidacy.  I doubt that, though.  This crop of Republicans are a lot better at winning the nailbiters, than the Democrats.

      Who will Barry pick to be his devil?  Or, if he ignores realpolitik, what means will he use to draw the 10% he needs into the fold, and keep them there?

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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/9/2008 11:57:57 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Who will Barry pick to be his devil? Or, if he ignores realpolitik, what means will he use to draw the 10% he needs into the fold, and keep them there?

For Obama, McCain is Satan. For McCain, Obama is Satan.

This is the nature of our system of politics.  One cannot be for Obama and not be against McCain; one cannot be against Obama and not be for McCain.  That is the essence of the two-party political structure.


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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/9/2008 3:27:53 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

One cannot be for Obama and not be against McCain; one cannot be against Obama and not be for McCain.  That is the essence of the two-party political structure.




         That's the way the votes will tally, Celt, but not very descriptive of how people are moved to cast them.  The R's have clearly taken the tack you describe  Some, I'm sure, are busy with the numerology right now, looking for a simple way to get the desired "666" answer out of his vital stats (it's a lot like building a global warming model).

         Barry is their devil, and he's made it easy.  It's a safe, simple play for them.  Unless Obama is able to get a surge of momentum, it will be the winning strategy. 

        He has to do a whole lot better, especially when you figure that not all those rascist yellow-dogs are coming back.  McCain is not enough.  The outgoing administration is not enough.  The current divisions in our political discourse won't give him a sustainable 10 point bump.  He can lay out specifics and stammer over the missed values for two months +, he can puff more glorious air and watch the bump wear off, or he can paint a picture of blame and try to ride some anger across the finish line.

       

         

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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/9/2008 4:36:57 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

McCain is not enough. The outgoing administration is not enough. The current divisions in our political discourse won't give him a sustainable 10 point bump. He can lay out specifics and stammer over the missed values for two months +, he can puff more glorious air and watch the bump wear off, or he can paint a picture of blame and try to ride some anger across the finish line.

If Obama cannot accept McCain as the adversary, then he has already lost.  They are opponents in a contest with room for only one victor.  For either to win, the other must lose. 

The crux of each campaign's message is necessarily "I am the best; I should be President."  The message thus also necessarily contains "My opponent is the worst; he should not be President."  There is neither middle ground nor room for compromise on that core message.  Obama and McCain are adversaries.  Our political system demands it.  Our political culture endorses it.

Thus each candidate becomes his opponent's Satan--the accuser and adversary who challenges and illuminates all the sins, all the shortcomings, all the negatives.  The tactical imperative in every campaign is to make the opponent seem less than desirable for the contested office.  To fail in that is to ultimately lose the election.

Who is Barry going to hate?  The answer is McCain or himself.  There is not a third option.


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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/9/2008 4:49:36 PM   
slvemike4u


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Status: offline 		I reject the tittle of the thread or the politics of hate.The message of Obama's campaign has been change and that message alone, change from the failed policy's of the last 7 1/2 years is an appealing enough message, without the need for a bogeyman above and beyond the policy's of the Republican party...that is message enough

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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/9/2008 4:53:32 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

I reject the tittle of the thread or the politics of hate.

There is no politics without hate.  That is the essence of our adversarial system.


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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/9/2008 5:05:36 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

I reject the tittle of the thread or the politics of hate.

There is no politics without hate.  That is the essence of our adversarial system.



So if you disagree with someone, you automatically hate them.

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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/9/2008 5:06:11 PM   
MistressNew


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Status: offline 		And this is the thing that makes this candidate different.  There can be a politics without hate.  There is a politics without hate.  When Obama is talking about change, this is at the core of what he's talking about.

The differences between the two major parties are rarely so well on display as they are in this thread.

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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/9/2008 5:22:22 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

I reject the tittle of the thread or the politics of hate.

There is no politics without hate.  That is the essence of our adversarial system.



So if you disagree with someone, you automatically hate them.

In political campaigns....absolutely.

One candidate cannot be right without the other candidate being wrong.

One candidate cannot be good without the other candidate not being evil.

One candidate cannot be victorious without the other candidate being defeated.

Politics has never offered a prize for second place.  To borrow shamefully from Highlander: "There can be only one."


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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/9/2008 5:23:48 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

And this is the thing that makes this candidate different. There can be a politics without hate. There is a politics without hate. When Obama is talking about change, this is at the core of what he's talking about.

Sounds all pretty and pink and positive....pity politicians don't play that way.


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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/9/2008 5:52:31 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		CelticLord, i know you are speaking for yourself.
I dont hate anyone just because they dont agree with me, political campaign or not.

Politicians play at being politicians, that doesnt mean they cant share a beer afterwards. As Mike said, hatred was the wrong word to use.

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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/9/2008 6:28:36 PM   
Owner59


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Why do you believe it requires hate to unite people?

Because you`re a conservative and see the world this way?

Democrats don`t operate like that.

Using/exploiting the fear and hate of commies,gays,liberals,immigrants,Muslims,etc. to unite, is a republican thing.

Now the GOP, either wants to scare us about Obama,in the most hateful and vicious ways or make us think he`s a just a pretty face with no substance.

Oh,the dire warnings and fear of the sky falling coming from the right.All bad scenarios,if Obama is elected.Just frighting.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

"make his presidency a failure,"

The op`s words sound like he wants Obama`s presidency to be a failure.

That`s the patriotism of a neo-con and hardly pro-American.Wishing for a failed presidency is wishing ill for America.

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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/9/2008 6:42:00 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Why do you believe it requires hate to unite people?

Love and hate are opposite sides of the same coin, thus hate becomes the inevitable adjunct of unity. 

Unite people under your flag, you necessarily separate from all other flags.  Band people together in a single group, you build a wall against everyone not in that group.

To declare your flag the right way, you must declare other flags the wrong way.  There is no second option.

To hate no one is to love no one.



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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/9/2008 6:44:20 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


Why do you believe it requires hate to unite people?

Because you`re a conservative and see the world this way?

Democrats don`t operate like that.

Using/exploiting the fear and hate of commies,gays,liberals,immigrants,Muslims,etc. to unite, is a republican thing.



I dont agree with this either. Some conservatives and some democrats may act that way. Its the same with labour and conservatives over here. Generally i think people are too intelligent to fall for this B/s, from either side. Normally people vote for what is having an immediate impact on their life, at present that would be the economy.

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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/9/2008 6:48:01 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Love and hate are opposite sides of the same coin, thus hate becomes the inevitable adjunct of unity. 

Unite people under your flag, you necessarily separate from all other flags.  Band people together in a single group, you build a wall against everyone not in that group.

To declare your flag the right way, you must declare other flags the wrong way.  There is no second option.

To hate no one is to love no one.




This may be your opinion but i think its total nonsense. I dont really know what else to say, its as an absurd position on people and politics as Owners seems to be.

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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/9/2008 6:59:26 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
This may be your opinion but i think its total nonsense. I dont really know what else to say, its as an absurd position on people and politics as Owners seems to be.

What else to say?  Say what makes it nonsensical. 

If you believe love and hate are not opposite sides of the same coin, explain how this is not so.

If you believe hate is not the necessary adjunct of unity say how unity can occur without hatred.

What else to say?  Say the logic that leads to your conclusion of "nonsense".  That is what you should say.

Can you say?


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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/9/2008 7:31:31 PM   
cloudboy


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You insisting on calling Barak Obama "Barry" makes you look snarky and petty.

As for movements, the negative movement that will propel Obama is eight (8) years of the Bush administration throughout which Americans have seen: (1) their real incomes drop; (2) two wars unsuccessfully prosecuted; (3) the federal government botch Katrina; (4) the Federal Goverment fail to timely intervene in the Mortgage scandal; (5) the US become a world-wide pariah; (6) the federal government double the national debt.

The question is will Obama be able to weather the Republican balkanization of the the American voter around small time issues like: guns, abortion, and gays.

Will Obama be able to sell a sensible Federal Fiscal Policy.

Basically, the next US President won't be able to play run and hide --- say by boosting spending and upping the national debt. He won't be able to lower gas prices by off shore oil drilling or opening up the national reserves. The Next President is going to actually have to try and solve these problems --- and the question is -- will Americans be ready for honest answers or more Republican chicanery?


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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/9/2008 7:35:19 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Will Obama be able to sell a sensible Federal Fiscal Policy.

That one's easy to answer:  No--he doesn't have a sensible policy.  All sorts of new spending and new taxes is a nonsensical policy.


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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/9/2008 8:08:56 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Will Obama be able to sell a sensible Federal Fiscal Policy.

That one's easy to answer:  No--he doesn't have a sensible policy.  All sorts of new spending and new taxes is a nonsensical policy.

As opposed to cutting taxes while prosecuting two wars?

_____________________________

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Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Who is Barry going to hate? - 8/9/2008 8:34:48 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

     In less than three weeks, barring some dramatic development, Senator Obama will take the podium in a packed football stadium, to accept the Democratic nomination for President of the United States.  It will be the most important speech he has ever given.  He knocked it out of the park in '04, catapulting himself to this point.  Can he do it again?

    The purpose of this speech will be very different from that one.  Getting people's attention is not the same as unifying them.   He's really good at the big puffs of air called oratory.  That, and a giant blank canvas of "change," made him a star then.  Now he has to unify the crowd by giving them a common vision of a common enemy.  He has to start building a wave of support among the independents that won't crest until the October debates.  This time, he has to define the obstacle.  George Bush (the Second) isn't going to win him any more converts.  So who, or what, is it going to be?

    Mass movements can rise and spread without belief in a God, but never without belief in a devil.  Eric Hoffer, The True Believer. 


     Barry doesn't have to go that way.  He might even squeek out a win just close enough to make his presidency a failure, instead of just his candidacy.  I doubt that, though.  This crop of Republicans are a lot better at winning the nailbiters, than the Democrats.

    Who will Barry pick to be his devil?  Or, if he ignores realpolitik, what means will he use to draw the 10% he needs into the fold, and keep them there?


The fact that you've chosen "Barry" as the name you chose for this requiem, suggests at best that you belittle him.

His name is Barack Obama.

That being settled, I submit he'll make a speech that will be appropriate for the times.

He'll choose a speech that will best fit his message, and his intent.

As will McCain.

And you'll choose accordingly.

(As should be the case).

As I would hope.

Choose accordingly.


< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 8/9/2008 8:36:20 PM >

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