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RE: When Doms lie/cheat/break promises? - 8/9/2008 8:18:47 PM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedingMore220

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
I think it's highly unrealistic not to expect to take steps back with any dominant unless they are someone who has already invested a lot of time and energy into fixing their own baggage and issues. However, if they aren't willing to own up to what they did and take responsibility for it, then it's my suggestion to find another partner. Without that element, then you won't be able to take steps forward after going backward.

I think this is true for any relationship. No relationship always progresses forward - both parties err and have issues that must be dealt with. To believe otherwise is to believe your partner, whether Dom or sub, is perfect, which obviously is a dangerous illusion and nothing to build a worthwhile relationship on.

Sure, but in this particular context, we were talking about a dominant and I responded as such. I'm not trying to negate the value of submissive issues or try to make this out to be something "special" or "different" that isn't applicable in other contexts.

It's equally important for the submissive or slave or whatever to own up to her own baggage for things to work out. Self awareness is the one quality I value most in people and have passed up a few people who obviously didn't have it.

But...

Speaking from personal experience, I don't risk as much as a dominant as the women who put themselves in a position of vulnerability to me.

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to NeedingMore220)

Post #: 21

RE: When Doms lie/cheat/break promises? - 8/9/2008 10:15:10 PM

Stusmobile

Posts: 145
Joined: 5/26/2008
From: No fixed abode
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: curiousPAlady

I dont know where to ask this, so I hope here is ok. I have read posts about what Doms do when the sub lies, disobeys, does something wrong, etc. She would be somehow "dealt" with, or released.

But I havent read a post about what a sub does when her Dom lies to her, or cheats on her, or breaks his promise or commitment to her. She can leave the relationship of course. But if he wants her as his sub, but wont acknowledge what he has done, what should she do? What are some options for the sub, to try to save the relationship? How can she ever trust him again?

I know the power dynamic is different, and its not him being "disobedient". But how do Doms "fix" things if they are the ones who lie, cheat, break promises, etc.? What is the equivalent response when its the Dom who has done "wrong"? How can the relationship be repaired when its the Dom who is at fault?

Its all about communicating, same as every relationship that involves anything more than a right hand.

For me there is not just a need to know where I screwed up, it's a requirement of the relationship. I am by no means perfect, I screw up, I forget things ... and without there being any way for her to let me know what it is I messed up then there is no relationship.

Part of the ground rules for us is her ability and requirement to communicate, normally that would be verbally but sometimes bringing a subject up can be hard, so we have other ways to bring things to light, texts, emails, even talking about subjects found here on CM and especially her journal ..... each has their own merits and all have proved useful to us.

Your original post encompasses so many things a D type may have done wrong and they all have different resolutions to me ...

A genuine mistake, forgetfulness or inability to do something that was going to be done .... I'd apologise, accept I'd bitten off more than I could chew and would re-evaluate what was asked or expected. This could be something as simple as forgetting to pick some drinks up from the store, maybe I'd just worked an extra long day or some other valid reason stopped me doing something. An apology and explanation should suffice unless there are underlying problems.

A broken promise - much harder, a promise is not given unless I know I can deliver ... and the only time a promise would get broken would be dire circumstances. An example of something dire would be promising to take her to dinner on a Friday evening and then suddenly finding that someone in the family was ill and I needed to be on a flight to be there for them ... I'd break the dinner promise with a heavy heart but I would break it and expect to her to understand why it was being broken.

Breaking her trust ..... the only time I can see that happening is during one of those times when we're both pushing hard during play. Yes there is the chance that something goes to far, a wrong direction or is something suddenly too much. That would require work, commitment and relearning for us both, but at the end of the day if the foundation of our relationship was sound before it can be again given time and commitment.

Cheating .... sorry not in my mind set, the last time I cheated was over 25 years ago and there was more than enough fall out from a school boy fling to swear me off them forever .... even chatting online and getting more intimate than friendly banter and flirting is a form of cheating to me ... and that rule is the same for the both of us ... I don't set a standard I cannot or will not achieve myself.

_____________________________

Goethe: "Whatever you do, or dream you can do, begin it - boldness has genius, power and magic in it. Begin it now."

EmlyKate is mine and I wouldn't wish for anything else.

(in reply to curiousPAlady)

Post #: 22

RE: When Doms lie/cheat/break promises? - 8/9/2008 11:35:40 PM

FrankAr

Posts: 817
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline

Greetings lady,

This is just my own thoughts and two cents worth.

In the nilla world if you get caught cheating and even if you are cheating and did not get caught, whether you are male or female, you are just a dickhead. Either party should just walk out, for you do not know the next time that person is going to cheat, or if the other person is going to hold it over you as a recourse for their wrong doings in the future. Like a fire, if you add logs of wood, it keeps on burning, if you walk away from the fire it tends to go out.

In the BDSM world and Gorean cultures, you cheat, your honour is fucked up and thrown out the window, and then what do you have. You do not have your word to go back on, for if you are cheating, then you have no realiablity in your words for someone to take the truth. Your honour is gone because how is the other person going to allow to TRUST you in any way shape or form.

The main thought...why cheat in the first place ? If it is some kind of disorder, then leave the relationship and get help, don't bring another person down to the gutter because you are too fucken lazy to get help. If you get your thrills off on it, then leave and do not fuck up the mentality of the other partner. If you do it continously, let the other know so that they can place into actions any scenarios if they want, and then if they stay with you, so be it, but at least they stay with you being open and honest about shit like that.

Just my two cents worth.

Frank Ar.

_____________________________

I am just me, simple ol me.

Even the softest whisper can be heard in the loudest group....Frank H.

(in reply to curiousPAlady)

Post #: 23

RE: When Doms lie/cheat/break promises? - 8/10/2008 6:37:07 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: curiousPAlady

I dont know where to ask this, so I hope here is ok. I have read posts about what Doms do when the sub lies, disobeys, does something wrong, etc. She would be somehow "dealt" with, or released.

But I havent read a post about what a sub does when her Dom lies to her, or cheats on her, or breaks his promise or commitment to her. She can leave the relationship of course. But if he wants her as his sub, but wont acknowledge what he has done, what should she do? What are some options for the sub, to try to save the relationship? How can she ever trust him again?

I know the power dynamic is different, and its not him being "disobedient". But how do Doms "fix" things if they are the ones who lie, cheat, break promises, etc.? What is the equivalent response when its the Dom who has done "wrong"? How can the relationship be repaired when its the Dom who is at fault?

I would ask this. How or WHY would you continue to submit to someone you cannot trust or respect? What is left to repair?

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to curiousPAlady)

Post #: 24

RE: When Doms lie/cheat/break promises? - 8/10/2008 7:30:52 AM

MasterAramis

Posts: 279
Joined: 7/29/2008
From: Connecticut
Status: offline

quote:

I would ask this. How or WHY would you continue to submit to someone you cannot trust or respect? What is left to repair?

Having reflected on this a bit, while I am adamantly opposed to cheating in both the vanilla context as well as the M/s or D/s context. One cannot just write off another just like that. There must be some level of discernment process to determine if the relationship is truly repairable.

We have all blundered from time to time, sometimes we as people make big blunders, which cheating is in my opinion one of them. Masters are no exception to this rule. Sometimes if a Man has not yet Mastered himself fully, this can and does happen. Only the person who has been cheated on can make the determination if this is something that can be fixed or thrown into the Bosphorus.

Sincerely,

Aramis Duval

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 25

RE: When Doms lie/cheat/break promises? - 8/10/2008 7:32:58 AM

Nitefalls1000

Posts: 41
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline

Ok. I could go into a big long drawn out philosophy on what I feel is the difference between a Dom and a Master is, but i wont. The bottom line is that if you didn't have an open relationship agreed upon before hand he cheated. LEAVE!! A sub has rights, so does a slave but to a lesser degree. But if you have agreed on an open relationship suck it up. Submission is a gift there is always another Dom that will charish that gift.

(in reply to angaothsi)

Post #: 26

RE: When Doms lie/cheat/break promises? - 8/10/2008 8:16:38 AM

Wisenlilminx

Posts: 56
Joined: 2/11/2007
Status: offline

We feel relationship needs can't be put aside with protocol, that everyone needs to be adult and able to communicate freely. Otherwise, the relationship either won't work, or be a terrible one. If the dom is exemplary, maybe those talks are never needed, but that's hard to imagine.

And working out relationship stuff can be fulfilling.

Of course, if the lying cheating etc is habitual, maybe he's just not worth it.

(in reply to curiousPAlady)

Post #: 27

RE: When Doms lie/cheat/break promises? - 8/10/2008 8:46:55 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterAramis

quote:

I would ask this. How or WHY would you continue to submit to someone you cannot trust or respect? What is left to repair?

Having reflected on this a bit, while I am adamantly opposed to cheating in both the vanilla context as well as the M/s or D/s context. One cannot just write off another just like that. There must be some level of discernment process to determine if the relationship is truly repairable.

We have all blundered from time to time, sometimes we as people make big blunders, which cheating is in my opinion one of them. Masters are no exception to this rule. Sometimes if a Man has not yet Mastered himself fully, this can and does happen. Only the person who has been cheated on can make the determination if this is something that can be fixed or thrown into the Bosphorus.

Sincerely,

Aramis Duval

Perhaps you are correct, I don't know because I have never been faced with this situation personally. I hold myself to a certain standard and expect it of those in my life. Granted, it may mean less people in my immediate circle, but the quality of those that are, more than makes up for the quantity.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to MasterAramis)

Post #: 28

RE: When Doms lie/cheat/break promises? - 8/10/2008 9:10:17 AM

antipode

Posts: 1787
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline

It is my one big fault line, untruths. By that I mean deliberate untruth. And I don't think this is anything to do with D/s or M/s or PMS, or whatever. This is about people and relationships. I have, over my lifetime, only ever seen that the vast majority, like 99.99%, of people who lie or break promises do so structurally. They won't stop. It is a way, for most folks, to cut corners, to get things they're not entitled to, to get what they want, without having to make the effort. Mostly, that's a negotiation effort, and mostly, negotiating means you have to be prepared to take "no" for an answer.

After trying lots of different solutions I came to the point, a number of years ago, that I up front warn those in my life - sub, slave, employee, family - that if they lie to me, even once, they're fired. Even the warning does not work, is my experience. Compare it with the bulimic sub, for whom lying became a way of life - first it was just about food, and then it kind of became a lifestyle.

We all don't like to lose, but it is important to imprint on oneself that a liar you can't lose, because you never had 'em in the first place, and that they will not chance until after lying has cost them really badly. Sad, eh?

(in reply to curiousPAlady)

Post #: 29

RE: When Doms lie/cheat/break promises? - 8/10/2008 10:09:35 AM

MasterAramis

Posts: 279
Joined: 7/29/2008
From: Connecticut
Status: offline

quote:

I hold myself to a certain standard and expect it of those in my life.

Yes I do too. It makes for less friends, but on the flip side it also makes for less drama! I will say this, we can never say NEVER. You don't know what life will throw at you. I believe we should all strive to have the courage to be truthful and hopefully be true to our convictions.

Sincerely,

Aramis Duval

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 30

RE: When Doms lie/cheat/break promises? - 8/10/2008 11:16:30 AM

curiousPAlady

Posts: 8
Joined: 4/20/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: masterforRT

One bad thing about online relationships is that lots of people lie.

One great thing about online relatioinships is that every computer has an off switch.

Use it if you are lied to...

While we communicate mostly online because of distance, this is a real time relationship. We get together every 5-8 weeks for a few days/nights.

(in reply to masterforRT)

Post #: 31

RE: When Doms lie/cheat/break promises? - 8/10/2008 11:42:31 AM

curiousPAlady

Posts: 8
Joined: 4/20/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: curiousPAlady

I dont know where to ask this, so I hope here is ok. I have read posts about what Doms do when the sub lies, disobeys, does something wrong, etc. She would be somehow "dealt" with, or released.

But I havent read a post about what a sub does when her Dom lies to her, or cheats on her, or breaks his promise or commitment to her. She can leave the relationship of course. But if he wants her as his sub, but wont acknowledge what he has done, what should she do? What are some options for the sub, to try to save the relationship? How can she ever trust him again?

I know the power dynamic is different, and its not him being "disobedient". But how do Doms "fix" things if they are the ones who lie, cheat, break promises, etc.? What is the equivalent response when its the Dom who has done "wrong"? How can the relationship be repaired when its the Dom who is at fault?

I want to thank everyone for their feedback. I also want to clarify some things. I realized as I read the feedback I hadnt fully explained.

Since he didnt want a monogamous D/s relationship, we created an open, no limits relationship. That was so he wouldnt HAVE to lie and cheat, or feel like he was.

MY own limit/rule was that he tell me when he goes off with someone else.  He didnt want to have to make excuses or lie about his absences when he went off with someone, and I didnt want to be left in the dark when he would disappear for days.

In the first couple of months, he did tell me and things were OK. I didnt fuss or act out when he would go off with another. I kept myself busy at home, hoping he was having a good time. I didnt quiz him when he got back and I wasnt jealous. I had agreed to this, and accepted that this was a part of our relationship.

So I dont know when or why he started keeping secrets and not being open with me. I was clear that him lying to me and deceiving me was MY bottomline in this.

ALL I asked for was disclosure. Thats all he had to do, was just tell me. Instead, he has lied to me repeatedly, and in my mind, since he didnt disclose, he was cheating on me and on our agreement. He broke his promise to me, to disclose and to be honest about others.

Then he compounded it by lying again when I asked his if he had been with someone else. He still wont be honest about what happened. AND he has tried to turn it back on me saying I must be under stress for even questioning him.

Its my understanding that being poly works best when everyone is honest. Does the Dom not need to keep his promises and follow the agreements/guidelines we established in the beginning???   I thought agreeing to an open no limits rela. would be enough. I am monogamous by nature, so crossing those lines to give him what he needed and wanted was a HUGE step for me.

But I loved him and wanted him to be happy and to feel free in this relationship. I have given to him everything I could give him. I agreed to everything he wanted and said he needed. I just asked for honesty and disclosure.

I now suspect he has been dishonest with me for the last 3 months or so. I dont trust anything he tells me now. I dont know how to continue in a relationship with a Dom who would take so much and then break his word to me, a Dom that would lie to me over and over again.

I guess I was hoping I could find a way to still be with him, since I still have feelings for him.   But if he has been that dishonest with me, was I ever really "with" him???

Thanks again for all the feedback!

(in reply to curiousPAlady)

Post #: 32

RE: When Doms lie/cheat/break promises? - 8/10/2008 12:23:36 PM

Hizbadhabit

Posts: 10
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

i point blank left. Does not take well to being collared and branded by a liar...no need to be released.

z

(in reply to curiousPAlady)

Post #: 33

RE: When Doms lie/cheat/break promises? - 8/10/2008 12:54:10 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: curiousPAlady

I now suspect he has been dishonest with me for the last 3 months or so....

I guess I was hoping I could find a way to still be with him, since I still have feelings for him. But if he has been that dishonest with me, was I ever really "with" him???

Oh, you were with him alright. That's the problem, and some food for thought for you.

I'll venture an educated guess that he's been dishonest with you about more than you think. The problem is never the lie you catch someone in, it's the fundamental dishonesty behind it. This isn't a kid you're dealing with, he's all grown up now. Apologies don't cure character-disordered adults.

Sure, sometimes there are mitigating factors. But it's very muddy water. People tend to stay in bad relationships, and hold on to un-ravelling positions in the market, because they are trying to avoid the pain of closing them out and booking the loss. It is a disastrous strategy.

If he had not agreed to your terms and limits in the beginning, you would not have "opened the trade" in the first place. So why hold on to it now? Nothing has changed except your losses are rising.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 8/10/2008 12:55:31 PM >

(in reply to curiousPAlady)

Post #: 34

RE: When Doms lie/cheat/break promises? - 8/10/2008 2:17:26 PM

AnnaOfAramis

Posts: 523
Joined: 7/30/2008
Status: offline

quote:

I dont trust anything he tells me now. I dont know how to continue in a relationship with a Dom who would take so much and then break his word to me, a Dom that would lie to me over and over again.

Oh boy, does this sound familiar. I am so sorry that you have found yourself in this situation, as it is an awful one to be in and I was there myself once. It started with small lies... first it was his age... which I made the excuse that perhaps I had misremembered what he had originally told me... then the fact that he had a live-in girlfriend... which he told me about after we had already started seeing one another, and after my feelings had gotten in way too deep to pull out... but he told me she knew about me and that was supportive of it... new for me but I figured I'd give it a try... then after seriously rearranging my life so that, as I thought, he could spend 50% of his time with me and 50% of his time with her, he got around to mentioning that her mother lived with them so he couldn't easily be away without finding excuses... the lies continued to pile up too numerous to even remember, much less list. I tried to give this man everything because I so much needed to be a slave, but he was not even worthy of being called a dominant, much less a master. There were promises to collar me if I only did this or if I only did that... do them I did... no collar. Then he moved out of state-like a thousand miles away and then he abandoned me. I was left devastated. To give someone your whole soul and spirit and obedience and try so hard to serve them, to have it essentially spat upon by being lied to and betrayed... to me there is nothing that can hurt worse. It took a really long time to get over it, and my poor (current) Master had to put the pieces back together when he claimed me. Please, get out of this situation before you get really hurt and give yourself instead to someone who deserves you!

quote:

People tend to stay in bad relationships, and hold on to un-ravelling positions in the market, because they are trying to avoid the pain of closing them out and booking the loss. It is a disastrous strategy....
...Nothing has changed except your losses are rising.

Thank you Master Kirata for saying this. It is so true and it is what this slave did holding on and holding on and making excuses because facing up to the truth and losing the relationship was too painful to do, but in the end, that just made it even more painful.

with well wishes,
anna

(in reply to curiousPAlady)

Post #: 35

RE: When Doms lie/cheat/break promises? - 8/10/2008 4:14:28 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: curiousPAlady
But I havent read a post about what a sub does when her Dom lies to her, or cheats on her, or breaks his promise or commitment to her. She can leave the relationship of course. But if he wants her as his sub, but wont acknowledge what he has done, what should she do? What are some options for the sub, to try to save the relationship? How can she ever trust him again?

This is kind of an empty question, no? I mean, seriously. Two people build up a certain amount of trust. Say... the amount required for a full time M/s relationship. That trust is damaged by one or the other of them. At this point, they both have a decision to make, undoubtedly based upon how much trust still remains... dissolve the relationship, back it down to something requiring less trust (possibly vanilla), or try to go forward as is. All three of those choices are going to be dependent on how much trust remains and each party is going to need to do some close introspection to answer that question. How much trust remains is going to be a factor of how much trust was accrued prior to now and how the parties are handling this situation as it unfolds.

quote:

ORIGINAL: curiousPAlady
I know the power dynamic is different, and its not him being "disobedient". But how do Doms "fix" things if they are the ones who lie, cheat, break promises, etc.? What is the equivalent response when its the Dom who has done "wrong"? How can the relationship be repaired when its the Dom who is at fault?

At least for us, there is no difference between dom and sub in this. My rule of life is that if you make a mistake, then absolution comes only after you have done what you can to fix the damage caused. I would no more allow mine to get off the hook with a paddling than I would myself. Part of fixing damage may be the emotional damage in the other person... hence the need for possibly prolific and heart-felt apologies. There may be other things. In this, I do not see myself as either Dom or Master. When I have harmed the woman I love, then I am supplicant begging for mercy and hoping that I have earned enough good karma with past behavior to be worth that mercy. When she has harmed me, I have no interest in what that means insofar as Master/slave. At that point, it is an issue between the two of us as humans, and so supercedes any of the myriad roles that we wear. The types of things that I might "punish" her for are typically "role infractions"... that is to say, crimes against our chosen roles as Master and slave. When the crime is against me as an individual (lying to me, etc.) that's a whole different and much much more serious kettle of fish.

(in reply to curiousPAlady)

Post #: 36

RE: When Doms lie/cheat/break promises? - 8/11/2008 7:13:57 PM

Huntertn

Posts: 715
Joined: 10/7/2006
Status: offline

One thing I'd like to know : Just what has he promised..and what has he lied about? Because, aswers has to be basied on better information than we've been given . But I will say that lying always catched up with you..Be you a Dom or a sub

(in reply to angaothsi)

Post #: 37

RE: When Doms lie/cheat/break promises? - 8/12/2008 4:39:33 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

Prevention is better than cure. Broken trust is one of the hardest things to repair... simple answer, be honest and don't break their trust!

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to curiousPAlady)

Post #: 38

RE: When Doms lie/cheat/break promises? - 8/12/2008 3:05:59 PM

daddysliloneds

Posts: 1351
Joined: 6/28/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: curiousPAlady

<snip>... I havent read a post about what a sub does when her Dom lies to her, or cheats on her, or breaks his promise or commitment to her. She can leave the relationship of course. But if he wants her as his sub, but wont acknowledge what he has done, what should she do? What are some options for the sub, to try to save the relationship? How can she ever trust him again?

i've found that people are only as good as their word;so when someone is intentionally lying, cheating or breaking promises to me, then i find no reason to want to save anything with them; i call them on their bullshit and i walk away from them forever because they no longer exist in my world; they are dead to me.

(in reply to curiousPAlady)

Post #: 39

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