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Georgian - Russian president stops the military action - 8/12/2008 3:07:21 AM   
Vendaval


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A cease fire is good but how can Russia tell a foreign president to step down?
 
 
"Russia's Medvedev halts military action in Georgia"

"MOSCOW - Russian President Dmitri Medvedev ordered a halt to military action in Georgia Tuesday, saying it had punished Georgia and restored security for civilians and Russian peacekeepers in the breakaway South Ossetia region.  
"The security of our peacekeepers and civilians has been restored," Medvedev said in a nationally televised statement. "The aggressor has been punished and suffered very significant losses. Its military has been disorganized."

At the same time, Medvedev ordered the military to quell any signs of Georgian resistance.

"If there are any emerging hotbeds of resistance or any aggressive actions, you should take steps to destroy them," he told his defense minister at a Kremlin meeting.

Russia's foreign minister, meanwhile, said that Georgia's president must leave office and Georgian troops should stay out of South Ossetia region for good.

Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said that Moscow won't talk to President Mikhail Saakashvili and Saakashvili "better go."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080812/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia

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RE: Georgian - Russian president stops the military action - 8/12/2008 4:27:03 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval


A cease fire is good but how can Russia tell a foreign president to step down?
 
 


The USA has a record of overthrowing foreign leaders so why should it not be acceptable for the Russians too?

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RE: Georgian - Russian president stops the military action - 8/12/2008 4:32:18 AM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		I do not think that either is right in doing so, meatcleaver.
 
This seems like a coup d’état except that the military force is coming from outside the country.

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RE: Georgian - Russian president stops the military action - 8/12/2008 4:41:08 AM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval


A cease fire is good but how can Russia tell a foreign president to step down?
 
 


The USA has a record of overthrowing foreign leaders so why should it not be acceptable for the Russians too?


Name 2 foreign leaders that were elected by the people that have been overthrown by the US?  And please stay away from the "elections" of Saddam...

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RE: Georgian - Russian president stops the military action - 8/12/2008 5:00:05 AM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		Maurice Bishop in Grenada and Allende in Chile, even if the latter was done covertly.  Iran -  Shah of Iran, Reza Pahlavi was also installed by the CIA.  Enough to be getting on with?

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RE: Georgian - Russian president stops the military action - 8/12/2008 5:10:01 AM   
ArrogantHypnoDom


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Status: offline 		I find it both amusing and predictable that Bush chose to call Russia's use of force 'disproportionate', yet had no qualms in letting Israel rip apart most of Lebanon, when their use of force clearly was disproportionate.

Politics always amuses Me.

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RE: Georgian - Russian president stops the military action - 8/12/2008 5:20:01 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
Name 2 foreign leaders that were elected by the people that have been overthrown by the US?  And please stay away from the "elections" of Saddam...


You are not asking that as a serious question that you have no knowledge about, are you?
 
the.dark.

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RE: Georgian - Russian president stops the military action - 8/12/2008 5:28:20 AM   
ArrogantHypnoDom


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quote:


Name 2 foreign leaders that were elected by the people that have been overthrown by the US?  And please stay away from the "elections" of Saddam...


America encouraged elections in Palestine because they were very confident that Fatah would win. They didn't. Hamas won a free and fair democratic election because the people were sick of what they saw as corruption from Fatah. Unsurprisingly almost every leader in the world dennounced them as terrorists. Sure, they may be, but it proves that the world(primarily the west) will never do business with people they don't like, often ignoring or choosing to replace freely-elected leaders and actively doing business with dictators(Saddam was viewed as friendly for years, even weapons being provided to him and loans to pay for them)

I realise I didn't mention any leaders per se, but you get the point.

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RE: Georgian - Russian president stops the military action - 8/12/2008 5:30:13 AM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Maurice Bishop in Grenada and Allende in Chile, even if the latter was done covertly.  Iran -  Shah of Iran, Reza Pahlavi was also installed by the CIA.  Enough to be getting on with?


When was the Shah elected?
How about Maurice Bishop?

Any elected officials?  I will grant that Allende was an "elected" official, but the role the US had in the coup to overthrow him is up for debate.

Oh and to add an extra wrinkle, did it unilaterally.

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RE: Georgian - Russian president stops the military action - 8/12/2008 5:44:12 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval


A cease fire is good but how can Russia tell a foreign president to step down?
 
 


The USA has a record of overthrowing foreign leaders so why should it not be acceptable for the Russians too?


Name 2 foreign leaders that were elected by the people that have been overthrown by the US?  And please stay away from the "elections" of Saddam...


I see you are hedging your bets by bringing in elections, as if it is the USA's duty to overthrow anyone who isn't elected. The USA has never worried about supporting vicious dictatorships so why should it worry about mundane dictators already in place?

The USA had a hand in overthrowing Prime Minister Mohammed Mosaddeq in Iran in 1953. It had a hand in overthrowing and the murder of Allende in Chile in 1970.

Hawaii
Cuba
Philippines
Puerto Rico
Nicaragua
Honduras
Iran
Guatemala
South Vietnam
Chile
Grenada
Panama
Afghanistan
Iraq

What do these 14 governments have in common?

The United States overthrew them.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/12/2008 5:45:05 AM >

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RE: Georgian - Russian president stops the military action - 8/12/2008 5:47:21 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArrogantHypnoDom

quote:


Name 2 foreign leaders that were elected by the people that have been overthrown by the US?  And please stay away from the "elections" of Saddam...


America encouraged elections in Palestine because they were very confident that Fatah would win. They didn't. Hamas won a free and fair democratic election because the people were sick of what they saw as corruption from Fatah. Unsurprisingly almost every leader in the world dennounced them as terrorists. Sure, they may be, but it proves that the world(primarily the west) will never do business with people they don't like, often ignoring or choosing to replace freely-elected leaders and actively doing business with dictators(Saddam was viewed as friendly for years, even weapons being provided to him and loans to pay for them)

I realise I didn't mention any leaders per se, but you get the point.



Good point, the US only believes in democracy if you vote for the right party, ie. the pro-American party.

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RE: Georgian - Russian president stops the military action - 8/12/2008 5:49:26 AM   
caitlyn


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Status: offline 		Well Thadius, the role of the United States meddling in the affairs of other nations is pretty clear. You are playing a little word game at this point with the term "elected." I think most American Indian tribes used a form of election to select leaders, and we cast them out by the hundreds.
 
That said, to those that want to use what the United States has done, as an excuse for Russia, the "Little Billy did it too!" defense was lame the first five-hundred times it was used, and isn't getting better with age.

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RE: Georgian - Russian president stops the military action - 8/12/2008 5:51:34 AM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		Alarmingly, you seem really not to know that Maurice Bishop was the democratically elected Prime Minister of Grenada and that he negotiated independence for the country from British control.  And no, the Shah was not elected, he was installed as ruler by the CIA after the elected Iranian Prime Minister nationalised the oilfields.  I can't remember the PM in question's name but it was maybe something like "Mossadeh".  Clearly, you're not a stickler for spelling, so you'll excuse any error.

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RE: Georgian - Russian president stops the military action - 8/12/2008 5:51:58 AM   
RCdc


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Status: offline 		I starting to believe that some people might do well in reading some Kinzer as a start and then progress onto the big boy reading.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Georgian - Russian president stops the military action - 8/12/2008 6:04:20 AM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval


A cease fire is good but how can Russia tell a foreign president to step down?
 
 


The USA has a record of overthrowing foreign leaders so why should it not be acceptable for the Russians too?


Name 2 foreign leaders that were elected by the people that have been overthrown by the US?  And please stay away from the "elections" of Saddam...
 
(snip)
It had a hand in overthrowing and the murder of Allende in Chile in 1970.
(snip)



Uhm.... Check the year. Allendee was elected in '70... and didn't die until '73.

Yes I put the elected part in for a reason... also I keep seeing the Iraq comparison come up, are you suggesting that Russia has any international support for recent demands?

I wish the US was a bit more isolationist and not meddling in the affairs of others.  I still don't see how claiming that Billy broke out windows on the other block last week, validates the position of breaking out windows this week.

Just my opinions,
Thadius

P.S. I am not that far out from agreeing with your meaning though.

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RE: Georgian - Russian president stops the military action - 8/12/2008 6:09:17 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

I wish the US was a bit more isolationist and not meddling in the affairs of others.  I still don't see how claiming that Billy broke out windows on the other block last week, validates the position of breaking out windows this week.

Just my opinions,
Thadius

P.S. I am not that far out from agreeing with your meaning though.


I never said it validates it, I said the west has no moral authority because it indulges in the same games as Russia.

Slightly off subject but still relevant with a little imagination, as Noam Chomsky said 'One way yo stop terrorism, is to stop participating in it.

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RE: Georgian - Russian president stops the military action - 8/12/2008 6:19:48 AM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Alarmingly, you seem really not to know that Maurice Bishop was the democratically elected Prime Minister of Grenada and that he negotiated independence for the country from British control.  And no, the Shah was not elected, he was installed as ruler by the CIA after the elected Iranian Prime Minister nationalised the oilfields.  I can't remember the PM in question's name but it was maybe something like "Mossadeh".  Clearly, you're not a stickler for spelling, so you'll excuse any error.


Uhm... are we talking about the same Maurice Bishop that declared himself Prime Minister?  The same guy that came to power because of the NJM revolution?  Just checking.

As for the Iranian Revolution, here is a decent write up.... http://www.fsmitha.com/h2/ch29ir.html



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RE: Georgian - Russian president stops the military action - 8/12/2008 6:29:39 AM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

The USA has a record of overthrowing foreign leaders so why should it not be acceptable for the Russians too?


What the fuck does that have to do with the OP?  Do you have an actual opinion about anything that doesn't involve why America is bad, meatcleaver?  Everything you respond to involves America and why America sucks.  Well I get it, and I think everyone else does too.  You think America is evil, and you want everyone else to believe that too.  Well I never will believe that, and your native country is no better on the international scene.  So do you actually have an opinion about the OP?  The OP is about Russia's invasion of Georgia.  It isn't about America's history of foreign policy. 

< Message edited by slaveboyforyou -- 8/12/2008 6:31:40 AM >

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RE: Georgian - Russian president stops the military action - 8/12/2008 6:35:38 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

The USA has a record of overthrowing foreign leaders so why should it not be acceptable for the Russians too?


What the fuck does that have to do with the OP?  Do you have an actual opinion about anything that doesn't involve why America is bad, meatcleaver?  Everything you respond to involves America and why America sucks.  Well I get it, and I think everyone else does too.  You think America is evil, and you want everyone else to believe that too.  Well I never will believe that, and your native is no better on the international scene.  So do you actually have an opinion about the OP?


It has everything to do with the OP if you read the thread.  America is the leader of the free world, it calls itself the leader of the free world, you can find quote after quote from American president claiming that. Yet they don't find it difficult to criticize other countries for doing the same as America and lapdog does. If you read the thread I criticize the west in general. The fact that it always gets round to America is that the majority on these threads are American and claim purity for Americas actions even when they are about as pure as Russia's.

My point is, that America and the west criticizing Russia for doing the same as the west does, has no moral authority and is purely hypocritical.

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RE: Georgian - Russian president stops the military action - 8/12/2008 6:36:34 AM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		Do any others feel that criticising your government's foreign policy is a personal attack on yourself?  Why can't people be individuals first and drones of their government a distant 25th or 26th?  Just say "no" to a dumbed-down polarised debate. 

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