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Consensual/Non Consensual - 8/12/2008 5:36:35 AM

MistressOfGa

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Curious..
If your sub has signed a contract with you..a very in depth contract, listing all of their limits, their wants, their needs and what is and isn't acceptable, right down to the letter, and you do something during the course of the contract that is on the list that they agreed with, but no longer agree with, would it then be non-consensual? If the submissive doesn't tell the Dominant that she/he changed her mind and now does not agree with that particular activity, can the Dominant now be accused of breaking the contract?

I wish I could give an example. It is just something I read on another thread here on AAM forum and I wanted to expand on it.

OK, I think I have an example:

Dominant knows exactly what her submissive will and will not do. She does something that is on her subs list of "can do's", does that same submissive have the right to now call foul, if they no longer view that activity as one of the "can do's" the Dominant performs an act that was agreed upon in the contract? It isn't a non consensual act if it was agreed upon during negotiations, is it?

I call it a break down in communication and learning the importance of being open and honest about what it is you want or don't want.

I hope this makes enough sense to spark your thoughts about it. I posted this in the AAM forum, but I invite all to participate :)

PS: BTW, this isn't about any one. It is just something that sparked my curiosity from the other thread.

Edited for spelling

< Message edited by MistressOfGa -- 8/12/2008 5:41:23 AM >

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RE: Consentual/Non Consentual - 8/12/2008 5:49:02 AM

DiurnalVampire

Posts: 8125
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From: Nashville, TN
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2 part answer, since both parts arent the same:

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa
If the submissive doesn't tell the Dominant that she/he changed her mind and now does not agree with that peticular activity, can the Dominant now be accused of breaking the contract?

The dominant cannot be accused of breaking the contract becasue very simply they didnt. Contracts arent legally valid, but unless things are renegotiated and the s party says something about the D party having to rewrite parts for whatever reason the D cannot be expected to read their mind. I agree that it is a breakdown of communication, could be partly becasue the D and s didnt know better than to write a binding personal contract and never think about discussing it again after it was written, or it could be becasue the s wasnt comfortable giving the D more limits. Especially if a contract is written early in a relationship, both parties have to EXPECT change and proactively prepare for it. If not, they are both somewhat to blame for things going awry at some point.

quote:

does that same submissive have the right to now call foul, if the Dominant performs an act that was agreed upon in the contract? It isn't rape if it was agreed upon during negotiations, is it?

It isnt rape unless the s changed their mind and mentioned it to the D, even if the contract hadnt been rewritten yet. Verbal changes that never make it to written form are harder to defend becasue a D who wants to play dumb can say they didnt know about it. A s type ALWAYS has the right to call foul. They do not give that right up just becasue there is a contract (IMHO). Sometimes, a s type doesnt know an activity will sit badly until they try it, and then they want to stop it. Sometimes, something they enjoyed with one partner a second partner does differently and they react differently. There are many reasons why things dont work out as expected, and unless the s is supposed to endure, and then object afterwards, they can call foul. NOW with that said, blaming the D for it is wrong. The D did nothing but go about an activity that had been previously agreed upon, even if that agreement had been a long while ago. If the s didnt renegotiate, it is not the Ds fault. If neither rethought the intial contract, it is no ones fault.

This is part of why I do not like contracts, personally. They become a crutch for some people, who forget that negotiation and change are necessary. Things that are written become set in stone, even if they are things tat might or might not work out. Then, neither party ever look at it again, unless there isa fight and then it is whipped out and used against the slighted party ratehr than being a useful tool for building a relationship it beccomes a shield for communication issues.

DV

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Post #: 2

RE: Consensual/Non Consensual - 8/12/2008 6:00:43 AM

MistressOfGa

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Thanks DV, for unraveling my post lol I had in mind what I wanted to write, but as soon as I started writing it, I wasn't sure which way to go. I do want to say, that I changed the word "rape" to "an non consensual act" so as to include any non sexual activities. Sorry bout that <s>
I agree with everything you said. I do like contracts written up, but more for the s type than for the D. It gives them the opportunity to speak freely about what it is that they want and don't want. Do I think it is legally binding, of course not, but I do think that it gives submissives an outlet that some would think that they wouldn't normally have.
In negotiations with Geoff, I asked him to write out in his own words the things that are simply unacceptable to him, which gave me a springboard from which to jump. I now know how important his music is to him. I wouldn't have known it, had I not given him the chance to write out what he feels.

Does he have the right later on to change it? You bet he does. I wouldnt want (edited) to squelch who he is or what he would like to accomplish. But he also has the responsibility to tell me if he has changed his mind about a "can do" and now it is a "can't do". Like you said, we are not mind readers, no matter how much our s types want to believe we are <s>

< Message edited by MistressOfGa -- 8/12/2008 6:03:00 AM >

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RE: Consensual/Non Consensual - 8/12/2008 6:59:56 AM

Lashra

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We are not mind readers and therefore unless a submissive/slave communicates this desired change in contract, the contract stands as is and the Dominant is not at fault. But with that in mind, once a year I do ask my sub if there are any changes he (and myself)would like to be made to our contract, so far there have been none. By doing that it keeps us on the same page.

~Lashra

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RE: Consensual/Non Consensual - 8/12/2008 7:14:34 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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Yes, there's a couple of different questions or scenarios buried in here...

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa
If your sub has signed a contract with you..a very in depth contract, listing all of their limits, their wants, their needs and what is and isn't acceptable, right down to the letter, and you do something during the course of the contract that is on the list that they agreed with, but no longer agree with, would it then be non-consensual?

I do not believe that consent is durable. In other words, I don't care what someone said, wrote, signed in blood for, etc. yesterday. All I care about is what they consent to in the current moment. So yes, it would be non-consentual.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa
If the submissive doesn't tell the Dominant that she/he changed her mind and now does not agree with that particular activity, can the Dominant now be accused of breaking the contract?

if the dominant was proceeding in good faith based upon the last best available data (the contract), and heeded all stop indications from the sub (not just safe words), then the dominant was doing their job. The sub has some responsibility in this somewhere too. In general, I don't think that the phrase "breaking the contract" even applies given this sort of contract. But in your story, it was the sub who unilaterally changed the terms and so it would be the sub's responsibility to alert the dom of that fact.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa
Dominant knows exactly what her submissive will and will not do. She does something that is on her subs list of "can do's", does that same submissive have the right to now call foul, if they no longer view that activity as one of the "can do's" the Dominant performs an act that was agreed upon in the contract? It isn't a non consensual act if it was agreed upon during negotiations, is it?

Again, two different questions here. You cannot hide behind the contract regarding consent. What someone consented to yesterday has nothing to do with what they are consenting to now. Insofar as "calling foul"... buried in that is such a huge breakdown in communications that you'd have to tell me more about the story to understand how we got away from normal communcation and into "crying foul".

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa
I call it a break down in communication and learning the importance of being open and honest about what it is you want or don't want.

Want's change. People learn. It isn't necessarily an honesty thing. I agree it sounds like a break down in communication.

In short... the sub/slave is always entitled to redefine consent... minute by minute if need be. However, when one person changes the terms of an understanding unilaterally, they are obligated to share that tidbit with the other person. In your story, there were significant communication failures.

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RE: Consensual/Non Consensual - 8/12/2008 7:22:50 AM

undergroundsea

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I don't think the dominant can be said to be at fault for doing an act that had not yet been communicated as a limit.

In my opinion, if a relationship has a contract, a limit does not have to be recorded in writing for it to stand as a limit; I see it to become a limit at the time it is communicated.

I think negotiation is dynamic and not done just once at the beginning of a relationship. I see contracts more as tools for communication to define expectations than as a mean to enforce behavior as is done by legal contracts. Specifically, if either party begins to feel differently about an activity that was previously allowed in a contract, I don't think the other party can force said activity by virtue of contract. What such a scenario requires is to renegotiate this matter.

Cheers,

Sea

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Post #: 6

RE: Consensual/Non Consensual - 8/12/2008 8:03:51 AM

darchChylde

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Sorry, didn't read all the responses; that's alot of reading and i'm feeling very sickly.

First, no matter what's in the contract; consentuality is not on paper. In the end it comes down to what a person says yes or no to at any given moment. Does that mean that if the submissive changes their mind about what's in the contract it means the contract is broken? No, unless there was a "that doesn't work for me today" clause saying that the dominant has to always take no to mean no. I know that resistance is often a major part of play, so that can put a damper on things.

Now, if a submissive makes a habit of changing their mind about things without sharing it with their dominant; there's a screw loose somewhere and it needs to either be yanked out or tightened.

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RE: Consensual/Non Consensual - 8/12/2008 9:34:04 AM

thetammyjo

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I'm a bit confused by the OP...

If a sub has developed a new limit or finds that their limits have changed, it is his/her responsibility to communicate that and it is the responsibility of both people to then update a detailed contract.

The point of having such a detailed contract is so you don't have to only rely on your memory and you have a record of what is agreed to. Not keeping that up to date is a problem for both people.

This inability to update or an unwillingness to exercise that responsibility at the very least can result in conflicts and I'm not sure why anyone would court that.

If you have no contract or a very general contract then it comes down to a matter of memory and wills. I don't think that 's a great idea unless you've been together a long time.

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RE: Consensual/Non Consensual - 8/12/2008 9:37:36 AM

Madame4a

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Contract or not, consent can be withdrawn at any time -- the key there is communication, as usual... at least in my mind...

an aside, I'm not a fan of contracts -- they're a great place or way to start a conversation, but inevitably, something gets left out... at least in my experience

he didn't belong to me, but I knew someone who spent an inordinate amount of time thinking of loopholes in his contract as a submissive and then attempting to exploit them

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RE: Consensual/Non Consensual - 8/12/2008 10:59:08 AM

LPslittleclip

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i have trust in my M'Lady as to not need a detailed contract for the play time. in the beginning there was detailed limits and concerns on various types of play and outcomes. I'm sure that when the contract was started it was necessary to have a set of guidelines for the play. as the relationship progresses further it will be necessary to either modify the nature of the contract. with my M'lady i have 3 limits and each has a specific reason for it. in all else i have trust in my M'lady to know when i have had enough and to protect me from going to far myself. this would be the change over from bdsm 101 to more like a 201 level.

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RE: Consensual/Non Consensual - 8/12/2008 11:38:46 AM

CallaFirestormBW

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I'm an ol' fart. I hate the laundry list, made up in advance, of do's and don'ts... I discuss before any scene what's on the agenda, and get consent for this time and this place. Part of my reasoning is that, even though I was a "no holds barred" servant when I was coming up through the ranks (a requirement for bond-servants in our household), my Keepers chose to let me know what was going on and let -them- know if there was any reason that wasn't going to work out well that day. Let's face it, some days there are just things that don't work out so well. So I was trained that "no holds barred" didn't mean that you didn't check in on the current status -- it was common sense (or at least it was to the people I dealt with).

The part of the OP that bothers me a bit is

quote:

I call it a break down in communication and learning the importance of being open and honest about what it is you want or don't want.

There is the sense, to me, of using the act as a form of punishment in the phrasing of this... sort of like "Well, if you don't like it, you should have said something when I hadn't already started -- now, you can just suck it up." I may have been reading into it, but that's how the phrase seemed to me -- and to me, when a servant says "stop", whether xhe's given permission before or not, to me that means "stop" -- even if I'm right in the 'zone' and the energy is zooming for me, I will, unequivocally, respond to that "no", and there is no sense of vindictiveness in me about it -- though if someone consistently stops something we've agreed on for a scene, I will question whether xhe really intended to do it or not, and we'll have a talk about whether or not xhe is truly comfortable with having that as part of hir service. If not, and it is the -only- service xhe is providing, I will not hesitate to release hir to find something more 'suitable'--for both of us.

Calla Firestorm

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RE: Consensual/Non Consensual - 8/12/2008 3:12:04 PM

ElanSubdued

Posts: 1511
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MoGa,

quote:

If your sub has signed a contract with you... a very in depth contract, listing all of their limits, their wants, their needs and what is and isn't acceptable, right down to the letter, and you do something during the course of the contract that is on the list that they agreed with, but no longer agree with, would it then be non-consensual?

A few, quick thoughts:

1.) BDSM contracts are a starting place and a tool of negotiation. Generally, such a contract is not enforceable the way that a binding, legal contract is. It is my opinion, from experience, that it can be a detriment to get too detailed in these contracts because such detail can rope the dominant and submissive into a specific mindset. In other words, it is easy to think of the contract as being all there is when this isn't the case.

2.) In consensual, BDSM relationships, consent may be withdrawn at any time. This is very important to note because it's a key aspects of WIITWD (what it is that we do) that differentiates consensual BDSM from abuse.

3.) People grow and change. What may have been off-limits at one point may be desirable at another. Ditto at to the reverse. What may have been desirable at one point may be off-limits at another. If in doubt, my suggestion is always to ask. If a submissive agreed to something, has given no indication they've changed their mind, and indeed has changed their mind, I'd say there is a breakdown in communication. In this case, frank, honest discussion is probably in order. If the change is something small, this may be easy to work out. However, if the thing that has now changed is a fundamental tenet of the relationship, both people may reconsider whether they wish to continue.

4.) It is important for both dominant and submissive to communicate to one another about their needs, feelings, expectations, and desires. This doesn't stop just because a BDSM contract is in place. Communicate. Communicate. Communicate. I can't stress this enough. Without communication, small concerns that don't need to become issues, become issues, and things that are already issues become much bigger problems.

Elan.

< Message edited by ElanSubdued -- 8/12/2008 3:32:16 PM >

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RE: Consensual/Non Consensual - 8/12/2008 4:07:48 PM

NuevaVida

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Hmm, I suppose this is one of the reasons I wouldn't do a contract, particularly one that is in depth. Humans are fluid beings, constantly evolving and changing. I can not possibly know how something that is perfectly acceptable to me today might affect me a year from now, because I don't know where life will lead me in a year. I can make an educated guess, but if life works out differently and changes me, I wouldn't want to be held to a standard I no longer have.

I suppose this is why I won't get married again. Making a vow for life isn't logical for the reasons I stated above. Of course, that's my opinion based on where my life is right now. It's all subject to change...which I suppose is my point!

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Post #: 13

RE: Consensual/Non Consensual - 8/13/2008 4:12:36 AM

MistressOfGa

Posts: 2929
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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Yes, there's a couple of different questions or scenarios buried in here...

My writing is not the best right now. I know my OP was a little confusing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa
If your sub has signed a contract with you..a very in depth contract, listing all of their limits, their wants, their needs and what is and isn't acceptable, right down to the letter, and you do something during the course of the contract that is on the list that they agreed with, but no longer agree with, would it then be non-consensual?
I do not believe that consent is durable. In other words, I don't care what someone said, wrote, signed in blood for, etc. yesterday. All I care about is what they consent to in the current moment. So yes, it would be non-consentual.

But how can it be non-consensual for the D is the s didn't speak up and say that they had changed their minds about what they feel is consensual or not? I suppose that is the gist of my OP.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa
If the submissive doesn't tell the Dominant that she/he changed her mind and now does not agree with that particular activity, can the Dominant now be accused of breaking the contract?
if the dominant was proceeding in good faith based upon the last best available data (the contract), and heeded all stop indications from the sub (not just safe words), then the dominant was doing their job. The sub has some responsibility in this somewhere too. In general, I don't think that the phrase "breaking the contract" even applies given this sort of contract. But in your story, it was the sub who unilaterally changed the terms and so it would be the sub's responsibility to alert the Dom of that fact.

Yes, agreed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa
Dominant knows exactly what her submissive will and will not do. She does something that is on her subs list of "can do's", does that same submissive have the right to now call foul, if they no longer view that activity as one of the "can do's" the Dominant performs an act that was agreed upon in the contract? It isn't a non consensual act if it was agreed upon during negotiations, is it?

Again, two different questions here. You cannot hide behind the contract regarding consent. What someone consented to yesterday has nothing to do with what they are consenting to now.

I disagree. If what the sub consented to yesterday, no longer applies to today, than it does matter. It matters to both parties, since it effects both the D and the s.

Insofar as "calling foul"... buried in that is such a huge breakdown in communications that you'd have to tell me more about the story to understand how we got away from normal communcation and into "crying foul".

There is nothing more about this story. It is made up. Like I said, this isn't about anyone that I know.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa
I call it a break down in communication and learning the importance of being open and honest about what it is you want or don't want.

Want's change. People learn. It isn't necessarily an honesty thing. I agree it sounds like a break down in communication.

In short... the sub/slave is always entitled to redefine consent... minute by minute if need be. However, when one person changes the terms of an understanding unilaterally, they are obligated to share that tidbit with the other person. In your story, there were significant communication failures.

Yes, I agree that any one person, the D or the s is entitled to change their minds, minute by minute. But let's be fair, if I am in the middle of an act that my sub no longer considers consensual, then I need to be told that, at that moment, so I can stop what I am doing. I don't really care to hear about it later over dinner, how the scene that we just did, was unconsensual to him.

I will try and answer everyone's posts. I am happy that y'all responded and I hope that my OP and subsequent answers make more sense once I do respond.

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Post #: 14

RE: Consensual/Non Consensual - 8/13/2008 4:17:30 AM

MistressOfGa

Posts: 2929
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra

We are not mind readers and therefore unless a submissive/slave communicates this desired change in contract, the contract stands as is and the Dominant is not at fault. But with that in mind, once a year I do ask my sub if there are any changes he (and myself)would like to be made to our contract, so far there have been none. By doing that it keeps us on the same page.

~Lashra

I like that Lashra.
I understand that a contract is not written in stone, nor will it hold up in a court of law. But it sure does make it simple between the two parties if everything is spelled out and made clear to begin with. Checking once a year is not a bad idea. *I* would be checking more often than that now, but that is just me and what is going on in my life.

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RE: Consensual/Non Consensual - 8/13/2008 4:21:19 AM

MistressOfGa

Posts: 2929
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

I don't think the dominant can be said to be at fault for doing an act that had not yet been communicated as a limit.

In my opinion, if a relationship has a contract, a limit does not have to be recorded in writing for it to stand as a limit; I see it to become a limit at the time it is communicated.

I think negotiation is dynamic and not done just once at the beginning of a relationship. I see contracts more as tools for communication to define expectations than as a mean to enforce behavior as is done by legal contracts. Specifically, if either party begins to feel differently about an activity that was previously allowed in a contract, I don't think the other party can force said activity by virtue of contract. What such a scenario requires is to renegotiate this matter.

Cheers,

Sea

Sea, I have also regarded limits this way. My last sub didn't know for sure what his limits were until we tried something. Then it was either, I hate this, or I like this. Should we do this again? Yes or no. I didn't feel the need to bring out the original contract to show him where he didn't have that act marked as a limit. We played it by ear.

Thanks for responding :)

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Post #: 16

RE: Consensual/Non Consensual - 8/13/2008 4:23:11 AM

MistressOfGa

Posts: 2929
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: darchChylde

Sorry, didn't read all the responses; that's alot of reading and i'm feeling very sickly.

First, no matter what's in the contract; consentuality is not on paper. In the end it comes down to what a person says yes or no to at any given moment. Does that mean that if the submissive changes their mind about what's in the contract it means the contract is broken? No, unless there was a "that doesn't work for me today" clause saying that the dominant has to always take no to mean no. I know that resistance is often a major part of play, so that can put a damper on things.

Now, if a submissive makes a habit of changing their mind about things without sharing it with their dominant; there's a screw loose somewhere and it needs to either be yanked out or tightened.

As always, you managed to say best what it is that I am trying to convey <Hugs> I just want to now say "What darchChylde said" lol Nice response :)

Edited to add: I am sorry you are feeling ill. I hope you feel better today.

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Post #: 17

RE: Consensual/Non Consensual - 8/13/2008 4:29:19 AM

MistressOfGa

Posts: 2929
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

I'm a bit confused by the OP...

Thetammyjo, me too and I am the OP lol

If a sub has developed a new limit or finds that their limits have changed, it is his/her responsibility to communicate that and it is the responsibility of both people to then update a detailed contract.

The point of having such a detailed contract is so you don't have to only rely on your memory and you have a record of what is agreed to. Not keeping that up to date is a problem for both people.

This inability to update or an unwillingness to exercise that responsibility at the very least can result in conflicts and I'm not sure why anyone would court that.

If you have no contract or a very general contract then it comes down to a matter of memory and wills. I don't think that 's a great idea unless you've been together a long time.

Thank you, I agree. I suppose that is what I was trying to say. I guess it would have helped if I had quoted the thread that sparked my OP, maybe it would have made sense, but since I don't care for something I said to be brought over to a new thread, I wanted to show the same respect to the OP over on the other thread. <whew>

Waitress? Coffee please?

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Post #: 18

RE: Consensual/Non Consensual - 8/13/2008 4:32:18 AM

MistressOfGa

Posts: 2929
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Madame4a

Contract or not, consent can be withdrawn at any time -- the key there is communication, as usual... at least in my mind...

an aside, I'm not a fan of contracts -- they're a great place or way to start a conversation, but inevitably, something gets left out... at least in my experience

Yes, I agree.

he didn't belong to me, but I knew someone who spent an inordinate amount of time thinking of loopholes in his contract as a submissive and then attempting to exploit them

Oh boy, I can't imagine you having a sub like this in your collar. In fact, I can't think of any Dominants that I know of, who would allow such behavior. Unless of course, it was their kink <s>

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Post #: 19

RE: Consensual/Non Consensual - 8/13/2008 4:35:59 AM

MistressOfGa

Posts: 2929
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quote:

in all else i have trust in my M'lady to know when i have had enough and to protect me from going to far myself.

Trust is the key word here. In the beginning I have contracts, but once we get to know each other and we have set guidelines, I no longer rely on a contract. I had pup for 3 years in my collar and I knew him like the back of my own hand. If he had a problem, I knew it just from the look in his eyes. He didn't have to say a word. He trusted me to not hurt him and to keep him from hurting himself. In and outside of the bedroom.

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(in reply to LPslittleclip)

Post #: 20

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