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BDSM sick? - 8/13/2008 3:43:20 AM

Abaddon2u

Posts: 49
Joined: 8/12/2008
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This post will touch on the topic of normal verses deviant behavior, so thank you in advance for all the flaming about following old links.

I am new to this site and to try to get acquainted with it, several chat rooms were visited in the course of an evening. It was interesting to note people referring to themselves and the BDSM lifestyle using such terms as perverted, sick, insane, twisted and abnormal. My concern is that someone new to BDSM, perhaps dealing with and acknowledging deep seeded drives in their psyche for the first time may be put off by such concepts.
If someone can provide a concise definition of normal as it applies to human sexuality it would be greatly appreciated.

It was somewhat of a shock to discover that I am not what is considered normal anymore. I have to this point considered myself a fairly well adjusted contributing member of society. Now that I have been informed I am not normal, I suppose it will be necessary to repress what I thought to be a healthy sex drive.

I seem to remember though, it was not normal for a woman to be smart enough to understand politics and have the right to vote. That is until the sufferance movement, and women made it clear they were to be accepted.

I seem to remember that blacks were not allowed to be equal citizens. That is until Dr. Martian Luther King, civil protest and a nice walk through Selma Alabama.

I seem to remember when being gay was sick and perverted. That is until the gay movement, and the political activism.

Some day I will remember when BDSM was perverted and sick, at least that is my hope.

As far as I can tell, normal is what becomes known, understood and no longer feared by society.

I am looking forward to your input, as I could be wrong , it has happened before.

Abaddon

“ GOD does not play dice with the universe.” A. Einstein

< Message edited by Abaddon2u -- 8/13/2008 4:12:39 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: BDSM sick? - 8/13/2008 3:47:13 AM

lusciouslips19

Posts: 9792
Joined: 9/8/2007
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No one here speaks for me. Me and the countless people I know here would never say such things. If you dont like the conversations in a chat room then dont go there.

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(in reply to Abaddon2u)

Post #: 2

RE: BDSM sick? - 8/13/2008 4:35:23 AM

camille65

Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
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Indeed there was a thread that touched on this not too long ago. I'm of the opinion that people like to use those words simply to set themselves apart in an effort to be special or different.

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Post #: 3

RE: BDSM sick? - 8/13/2008 4:56:33 AM

Allondra

Posts: 68
Joined: 7/12/2008
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Some people think it's cool or edgy to call what they do dangerous, perverted, insane, etc.

*Shrug*

Me, I'm quite happy as I am, and that's what matters to me. I really don't care what someone else thinks about it.

-- Allondra (as normal as they come)

(in reply to Abaddon2u)

Post #: 4

RE: BDSM sick? - 8/13/2008 4:58:38 AM

BrokenSaint

Posts: 301
Joined: 10/30/2007
Status: offline

I'd think when many refer to themselves as sick it tends to be more of a tongue in cheek reference rather than a special effort to impress anyone. I wouldn't take it to heart.

_____________________________

In the name of progress,
In the name of madness
Drum beats faster
Crowd shouts louder
and chaos replaces order
VnV Nation - Nemesis

(in reply to Allondra)

Post #: 5

RE: BDSM sick? - 8/13/2008 5:02:09 AM

pixidustpet

Posts: 857
Joined: 6/4/2008
Status: offline

i'd definitely say i'm sick. the mold that got stirred up in the ductwork has my allergies defeating me....

what, that wasnt what was meant?

seriously, i figure if its consentual behavior between adults, who cares?

kitten

(in reply to BrokenSaint)

Post #: 6

RE: BDSM sick? - 8/13/2008 5:05:21 AM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Abaddon2u
Some day I will remember when BDSM was perverted and sick, at least that is my hope.

I seem to remember a time when "sick and perverted" was sick and perverted.

Many people involved in a counter-culture do not want to be "healthy and normal", that would be far too "square".

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to Abaddon2u)

Post #: 7

RE: BDSM sick? - 8/13/2008 5:08:14 AM

Lynnxz

Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline

I don't think that's what the OP meant at all.

He was more referring to the opinion of the general public that bdsm is some sort of sick perverted thing. If I read him right, he sees himself as a perfectly normal member of society, and isn't one of those people who feels that they are some deep dark pervert... *cough...*

It's my opinion, which I've stated before, that as people who continue to think that 'Kinky' is somehow sooo more intellectual and deep than 'vanilla', and that just because they like to poke someone with sharp sticks, that they are a dark sadistic evil person... are the people who are preventing BDSM from being socially acceptable.

If everyone who played volleyball acted like an egotistical jackass, part of some super secret ball hitting society, then I doubt that the peeps that DON'T play would be very approving at all.

There's people in this lifestyle who can't even agree that they are pervy like everyone else who likes to spank... somehow they must be MORE sadistic, MORE masochistic, and just sooooo hardcore- that people eventually get tired of their shit and stop listening.

< Message edited by Lynnxz -- 8/13/2008 5:10:45 AM >

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Post #: 8

RE: BDSM sick? - 8/13/2008 5:14:18 AM

softness

Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
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It depends upon the definition vs usage in context of such words
Take "sick" for instance.

If I described a piece of kids work as "sick" to them in my classroom - they would know I meant it was awesome, really unusual, interesting, skillful, and something to be proud of. That is their colloquial usage of the word sick - and I use it because it is speaking their language their way, and they like it.

If I called in "sick" to work, Debbie the nice lady in the office, knows that I mean I am unwell.

If after hearing missturbations plans for the weekend, I describe them as "sick" she will know I mean that her plans are - interesting, unusual, exciting, a little edgy, potential offensive to some but highly amusing to me.

Those usages of the word may not be correct in terms of what the dictionary says, but that is the brilliant thing about the English language (perhaps more so that any other langugae on earth). The meanings of words evolve with such rapidity that not just within a generation, but within a few years, a word can be totally "perverted" (have its direction changed - original meaning) or even reclaimed (think about the work The Vagina Monologues is doing to reclaim "Cunt" for women of the globe). Certain offenseivce terms used by "The Norm" towards a sub-culture or minority group are often adopted, reclaimed and used with pride by those within. Prime example - Gay, Dyke,

I cannot imagine anyone being upset or insulted within the BDSM circles I move in if they were described as "sick" or "twisted" or any of the other words you were unhappy at the usage of. The usage of them from *within* our community is different from *outside* that community. I use words like sick, twisted, wrong and perverted to describe myself and my actions. Those are the labels put on me by society. I take being called Slut, or Tart as a compliment. Someone called me Trash yesterday, and I blushed and thanked them. Those words are labels put on me and my desires in an attempt to make them negative, and I do not see them as such.

Normal - the most common. The accepted. If you lined 10 BDSMers up at a munch you wouldn't even be able to establish a "norm" with them, or with a hundred, you wouldn't be able to find an "accepted" model. You might find common themes(consent, power exchange, negotiation etc) but no normality. I dont think its realistic to believe that BDSM will ever me though of as normal, but we might get to a place where it was no longer seen as dangerous and a blight on society.

That would be really nice

_____________________________

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veritas, respectus honorque in corio

(in reply to camille65)

Post #: 9

RE: BDSM sick? - 8/13/2008 5:17:48 AM

BrokenSaint

Posts: 301
Joined: 10/30/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz

I don't think that's what the OP meant at all.

He was more referring to the opinion of the general public that bdsm is some sort of sick perverted thing. If I read him right, he sees himself as a perfectly normal member of society, and isn't one of those people who feels that they are some deep dark pervert... *cough...*

It's my opinion, which I've stated before, that as people who continue to think that 'Kinky' is somehow sooo more intellectual and deep than 'vanilla', and that just because they like to poke someone with sharp sticks, that they are a dark sadistic evil person... are the people who are preventing BDSM from being socially acceptable.

If everyone who played volleyball acted like an egotistical jackass, part of some super secret ball hitting society, then I doubt that the peeps that DON'T play would be very approving at all.

Well that too of course. But people do tend to stick to their reality tunnels. Anything outside of them is somehow bad, wrong, twisted, sick, scary, confusing, etc. One of those at least. I've never really considered it as anything other than that. My reality tunnel is simply a bit wider than most. All you can really do is show them how you are, and then wait for them to deal with their own head going "Well they seem like a perfectly reasonable and sane person! How can they be into something like this! It's sick!". Then they either expand their thoughts and worldview a bit, or don't. Kind of got the whole gist of that when I read prometheus rising (by the late great Robert Anton Wilson) forever ago.

The general public tends to consider quite alot of things sick or reprehensible. But when it comes down to it, you just have to consider the reasons for the things you like. Realize and accept that there is nothing wrong with you so to speak. That being said I've never considered the opinion of the general public highly. I hate people as a whole. Invididuals however tend to be pretty cool (and of course by individuals I mean when people are just being themselves, not a concept of oh they seem like an independant thinker just like me! Nope, just people being themselves).

< Message edited by BrokenSaint -- 8/13/2008 5:18:39 AM >

_____________________________

In the name of progress,
In the name of madness
Drum beats faster
Crowd shouts louder
and chaos replaces order
VnV Nation - Nemesis

(in reply to Lynnxz)

Post #: 10

RE: BDSM sick? - 8/13/2008 5:33:29 AM

Missokyst

Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline

When windows 95 came out and I started checking out chat rooms for the first time in my life I discovered that the stuff I have always done was considered perversion. Until then I thought everyone enjoyed bondage, spanking, beating, extreme sensuality, .. well.. fun stuff.
When I discovered chat and found that this was kinky I was uncomfortable with myself and who I was. It didnt help that not only was what I did not "normal" but.. that apparently I wasnt doing it right.
I didnt do the protocal, assume dominants deserved respect regardless of whether I knew them or not, or bow and scrape with obsequience.
So,, not only was I perverted, I wasnt good at it.
It took me a year to get back to chat rooms.
Thankfully by that time they had dropped the role play stuff in a few chat rooms and I discovered yes I was kinky, but it was OK

Of course during that year off I had already decided that if the men I had been involved with liked what we do, then it couldnt have been so freaky. I mean, what are the odds that all the men I have dated have wanted to do this stuff?

During those first returning to chat room years I discovered that people were normal. They liked being beat, spanked, bound, and otherwise they seemed normal enough! No one expected me to act in a certain way to prove my realness. I was real and so were they.

YAY!

In those early years I felt like you. If only people would embrace this, accept it as normal, and then what I did wouldnt seem so wrong. And.. people started exploring this. Heck.. it was becoming the newest trend. BEHHHHHHH. A bunch of people who until the net, had not even considered doing this were suddenly joining in. Not because they felt it, but because it was a new way to find what was missing in their life. Even if it didnt fit they jumped in and were suddenly sub or dom because it got them some kind of connection.

Now, I enjoy being perverted. I dont want to be one of the masses. I have no desire to fit into a mold that is bdsm the way that the masses have declared is correct. I still do not call all doms sir or maam, and in fact have only called my x dom sir when we are discussing business. I dont lower case my i, or any slash speak so that people will know I mean both orientations when I speak. Someone pointed out that I use I, a lot, and yes I do. Why not? I do not speak for someone else, I speak for me. I am not a third party who has to step back to make somes role, comfy. I dont change to suit the online ideal. I am me just as I have always been.

The problem with getting the world to accept this in my view, is that someone will find rules to make it acceptable. Oh wait.. they have.

I dont need to join the masses, or have them join me so that I can feel good about myself. If people do not find their level of comfort within themselves, maybe this is not for them.
Kyst

(in reply to Abaddon2u)

Post #: 11

RE: BDSM sick? - 8/13/2008 5:38:47 AM

Lynnxz

Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline

quote:

The general public tends to consider quite alot of things sick or reprehensible. But when it comes down to it, you just have to consider the reasons for the things you like. Realize and accept that there is nothing wrong with you so to speak. That being said I've never considered the opinion of the general public highly. I hate people as a whole. Invididuals however tend to be pretty cool (and of course by individuals I mean when people are just being themselves, not a concept of oh they seem like an independant thinker just like me! Nope, just people being themselves).

True- you can't win everyone over. However the people that are quickest to declare themselves Captain Amazing Super SadisticFreak, are usually the first to bitch when they are seen a super sadistic freaks, and violent porn is banned. :D

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(in reply to Missokyst)

Post #: 12

RE: BDSM sick? - 8/13/2008 6:12:04 AM

Quivver

Posts: 1953
Joined: 11/27/2004
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I've always found that those who boast most are doing so to prove it to themselves.
(just a thought) smile............

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Post #: 13

RE: BDSM sick? - 8/13/2008 9:52:17 AM

Lockit

Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
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Chat rooms can be a deversion or a laugh, but I wouldn't get a statement about society from them... well except... there are some really messed up people out there.

(in reply to Quivver)

Post #: 14

RE: BDSM sick? - 8/13/2008 10:02:09 AM

StormsSlave

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Joined: 2/6/2008
Status: offline

Ok, so, last night My Lord slapped my face repeatedly, squeezed my throat until I nearly passed out, and bit my breasts so hard they are swollen and bruised this morning. I fucking loved it.

In a "normal" relationship, this would have been abuse. My Lord would be sitting in jail and I would be getting counseling. The police would be escorting me home to get my things, and a restraining order would be filed.

I could not possibly care any less about what people think of me. I don't even know anyone else in the "lifestyle" outside of this website, and I don't actually know anyone here. I don't apply adjectives to myself for the benefit of anyone's opinion.

There is such a thing as "normal," folks. Allowing yourself to be beaten and abused for the sake of sexual pleasure is, well, NOT normal, however you rationalize it.

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Post #: 15

RE: BDSM sick? - 8/13/2008 11:19:25 AM

IvyMorgan

Posts: 729
Joined: 7/5/2007
From: Midlands, UK
Status: offline

I've just come back from a therapeutic community, where S&M is considered "self harm" (have we mentioned recently how much i love the nhs? I mean, the M I can get why they might, but the S, how is the S *self* harm?!?). They'd say we weren't normal. I said I wasn't playing along with that programme, and, we were going to have to disagree.

There's nothing wrong with my masochism, though if I genuinely wanted to hurt myself, I'd stick with the vanilla sex.

I freely admit to being a pervert, and now, well, now I'm going to wear my "I'm a self harmer" label too *smiles*

(in reply to StormsSlave)

Post #: 16

RE: BDSM sick? - 8/13/2008 11:22:45 AM

IrishMist

Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline

~general reply~

I don't know. I am perverted, sick, twisted, kinky, demented and at times just downright scary in my particular 'kinks'. I don't find it shameful though, nor do I care if another does. I am who I am; what's more, I am content and at peace with who and what I am. I can't ask for much more than that.

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Post #: 17

RE: BDSM sick? - 8/13/2008 11:36:49 AM

Missokyst

Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline

Damn that was hot!
Relish the sickness!

Kyst
*who is wondering why I have a sudden craving for a hotdog*

quote:

ORIGINAL: StormsSlave

Ok, so, last night My Lord slapped my face repeatedly, squeezed my throat until I nearly passed out, and bit my breasts so hard they are swollen and bruised this morning.

< Message edited by Missokyst -- 8/13/2008 11:43:27 AM >

(in reply to StormsSlave)

Post #: 18

RE: BDSM sick? - 8/13/2008 11:40:38 AM

pixidustpet

Posts: 857
Joined: 6/4/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz

I don't think that's what the OP meant at all.

He was more referring to the opinion of the general public that bdsm is some sort of sick perverted thing. If I read him right, he sees himself as a perfectly normal member of society, and isn't one of those people who feels that they are some deep dark pervert... *cough...*

It's my opinion, which I've stated before, that as people who continue to think that 'Kinky' is somehow sooo more intellectual and deep than 'vanilla', and that just because they like to poke someone with sharp sticks, that they are a dark sadistic evil person... are the people who are preventing BDSM from being socially acceptable.

If everyone who played volleyball acted like an egotistical jackass, part of some super secret ball hitting society, then I doubt that the peeps that DON'T play would be very approving at all.

There's people in this lifestyle who can't even agree that they are pervy like everyone else who likes to spank... somehow they must be MORE sadistic, MORE masochistic, and just sooooo hardcore- that people eventually get tired of their shit and stop listening.

*nods* i understood that, honestly. i dont think that WIIWD makes us worse than mundane vanilla society...i dont think it makes us better than any other self-proclaimed pervert, either. (personally, i'm a pre-vert. not nearly good enough to make pro status!)

i think we're all taking a little walk on the wild side, just some of us have ventured deep into the forest and some of us are still standing where we can see the sunlight in the meadows.

kitten, donning sunglasses and singing to the song now playing in her head.....

(in reply to Lynnxz)

Post #: 19

RE: BDSM sick? - 8/13/2008 11:49:00 AM

FRSguy

Posts: 653
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline

Cant say I fully 100% understand what you are trying to say but here is a stab at it.

As far as I know in the psychological diagnostics journals S&M in general is considered an abnormal behavior that requires treatment however that book is being rewritten / reviewed this year and the S & M crowd is up for reassessment. Although I don’t know if the committee has finished or not or what the end results is, from a political standpoint it is believed that S & M and D/S relationships will be “normalized” to a degree in the same way that homosexuality was “normalized” a couple of decades ago when the diagnostics were being reviewed… so for right now what we do is considered not normal and less than 10% of the population identifies with the lifestyle.

As far as I know some 70% of people do the same things in bed so chances are if you take any two people from American society and well, they do the same shit. Vaginal penetration (multi positions ) / oral. The average man has never had anal sex however the average woman has (this is actually interesting because it shows that around 20% of men have had sex with some 80% of the woman) and they have sex around 2-3 times a week if married.

I haven’t really seen any signs of changes in America as far as sexual behavior is concerned with the exeption of when the troops returned after WW2 (Government supported prostitution / live sex shows in the south pacific involving extremely deviant behaviors ) and the Clinton / Lewinskey scandal which shortly afterwards caused Cosmopolitan magazine to flood grocery stores with how to blow job articles which kind of moved the whole oral sex thing into a signature kind of thing. The sexual revolution wasn’t really a revolution or if it was it was simply people talked more about it but the actual behavior didn’t change much. The kinkiest time in American history would probably be 1978.
As far as the chat rooms are concerned you are for the most part dead on. The chat rooms rather suck and offer a lot of confusion. I have found that most of the people I have met in the chat are either people that are just into the cyber or are very extreme beyond reality and do offer a big chance of a newbie being “misguided” however, I don’t think there is really much difference on the boards. I guess its just a matter of where you draw the lines and what a newbie might be after. Its one of those things where someone needs to write a very good book about the lifestyle that goes a little bit beyond the how to. If anything, someone new would get a good does of acceptance examples which can take someone a long ways in life.

(in reply to Abaddon2u)

Post #: 20

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