RE: Those Evil Americans...

RE: Those Evil Americans... (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid

Message

cloudboy -> RE: Those Evil Americans... (8/13/2008 3:56:39 PM)
quote: evil Americans First of all, the way the USA conducts foreign policy has little to do with "the Americans," "those evil Americans," or the average American. So you and your whole threadline are misleading. You have to look at the actual policymakers and evaluate what they've done. Here's a track record for you: Bombing Cambodia Installing Pinochet in Chile Overthrowing Allende in Guatamala. Installing the Shah of IRAN. Propping up Marcos in the Phillippines. Propping up Samoza in Nicaragua. Supporting El Salvador who kept order through death squad tactics. Arming Islamic Radicals to oust the Soviet backed Northern Alliance in Afghanistan. Up and leaving thereafter.... oooops the Islamists turn against the the WEST. Go back in, arm the Northern Alliance to oust the Islamists. Oooops, fail to secure the country thereafter while off invading IRAQ --- give $10 Billion in belated to aid to Afghanistan. Arm Saddam Hussein with WMD. Then invade IRAQ to try and disarm SH for having WMD. Abu Ghraib Bay of Pigs Vietnam Mining Nicaragua's harbor. Having and embargo against Cuba and free trade with China. ----------------- Its my position that Americans had little to do with any of the above military and covert operations. In not one action did Congress declare war. Most of the actions were done in secret by shadow wonks in the Government. These policies were deliberately engineered in such a manner that the Average American would be ignorant about the operations undertaken. The IRAQ war just followed suit here, with BUSH and his team whipping the nation up into unjustified war hysteria. Even now the BUSH team doesn't want to disclose the actual costs of the IRAQ war to tax payers. What gets me is how you have the audacity to imply that we Americans who oppose these policies and tactics are somehow "un-American" or "anti-American," when the truth is you have it back-assed turned around --- its those policymakers who are anti-American, anti-democratic, and loathing of international law, treaties, and organizations. Its we, who oppose these policies who are pro-American. Its we who can see the IRONY and hypocrisy of BUSH chiding Russia for invading Georgia.

Thadius -> RE: Those Evil Americans... (8/13/2008 4:12:00 PM)
quote: Its my position that Americans had little to do with any of the above military and covert operations. In not one action did Congress declare war. Most of the actions were done in secret by shadow wonks in the Government. These policies were deliberately engineered in such a manner that the Average American would be ignorant about the operations undertaken. The IRAQ war just followed suit here, with BUSH and his team whipping the nation up into unjustified war hysteria. Even now the BUSH team doesn't want to disclose the actual costs of the IRAQ war to tax payers. What gets me is how you have the audacity to imply that we Americans who oppose these policies and tactics are somehow "un-American" or "anti-American," when the truth is you have it back-assed turned around --- its those policymakers who are anti-American, anti-democratic, and loathing of international law, treaties, and organizations. Its we, who oppose these policies who are pro-American. Psst.. you do realize that the regime change for Iraq was signed into law in '98 by CLINTON. Please show me where I have called anybody that opposes the policies un-American? The only thing that I have implied is that some folks want to blame the US for every problem that occurs around the world. I do like how in your post you say that not staying in Afghanistan after the Soviets were forced out, was a mistake, but staying in Iraq now to make sure that the government is able to secure itself is a mistake... Which is it? Leaving a power vacuum is either a bad thing or not. Don't try putting words in my mouth. There are many folks that I disagree with completely, yet (here comes the ol cliche) I respect their right to say it. I rarely resort to using the terms liberal or neo-con, I usually address the message not the messenger. If you wish to discuss this issue further we can start yet another thread on it.

kittinSol -> RE: Those Evil Americans... (8/13/2008 4:53:13 PM)
Thing is... why did you have to call your thread like that ('evil Americans')? Your bitterness really comes across here... You know, the actions of individuals do not always make up for a government's. And vice-versa. Of course, many Americans are charitable, and kind, and giving, and fair, and free: these are the values that this nation was built upon after all. I doubt many would deny that. Here's the deal: charity fulfills itself. You're not supposed to get a whole load of a basket of 'thank yous' for doing your duty. The goodness comes from the action. On the other hand, as meatcleaver pointed out, charitable donations in kind (such as in wheat, or whatever it is) can be a poisoned chalice. They may be worth an impressive amount of money: it doesn't mean they are valuable to their recipients. In fact.. it's usually a weight to bear more than anything. Things aren't usually as pretty as they seem [>:] .

cloudboy -> RE: Those Evil Americans... (8/13/2008 5:09:03 PM)
quote: Please show me where I have called anybody that opposes the policies un-American? Its an implied criticism, else why the title of your thread? You are trying to defang those critical of American Foreign policy by making them look like extremist Americans who "hate America" or who think Americans are "evil." It goes along with these posts as well: http://www.collarchat.com/m_2068149/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#2068158 http://www.collarchat.com/m_2068149/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#2068207 I just don't understand how you can give the US a free pass, and then get worked up over Russia -- a country and Region you don't live in. I don't get your indignation over Russia's actions but blithe acquiescence to US behavior. Why aren't you upset about 2 million refugees in IRAQ? Why aren't you upset about 100,000 IRAQIs killed. What about the torture instituted in Abu Ghraib? What about the Blackwater guys who mowed down innocent IRAQIs. What about the resurgence of the Taliban in Afghanistan? We own that shit a lot more than we we own Russia's foreign policy. The same implication is taking place on the "Where are the Protestors of Russia Thread," implying that the real motives of war protesters rest in Anti-Americanism. quote: Psst.. you do realize that the regime change for Iraq was signed into law in '98 by CLINTON. What the fuck is that shit. Clinton never invaded IRAQ or prepared the US to do it. What's that got to do with anything at all? The only thing Clinton passed onto BUSH was warnings about OSAMA BIN LADEN, which Condi & Co. fully ignored. They didn't give Richard Clarke the time of day.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Those Evil Americans... (8/13/2008 5:32:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy quote: Psst.. you do realize that the regime change for Iraq was signed into law in '98 by CLINTON. What the fuck is that shit. Clinton never invaded IRAQ or prepared the US to do it. What's that got to do with anything at all? The only thing Clinton passed onto BUSH was warnings about OSAMA BIN LADEN, which Condi & Co. fully ignored. They didn't give Richard Clarke the time of day. The "shit" is the Iraqi Liberation Act of 1998, (Public Law 105-338). In particular, the "shit" is Section 3: quote: SEC. 3. SENSE OF THE CONGRESS REGARDING UNITED STATES POLICY TOWARD IRAQ. It should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime. This policy was also passed on to Bush, as law.

Smith117 -> RE: Those Evil Americans... (8/13/2008 5:37:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy quote: evil Americans First of all, the way the USA conducts foreign policy has little to do with "the Americans," "those evil Americans," or the average American. So you and your whole threadline are misleading. You have to look at the actual policymakers and evaluate what they've done. Here's a track record for you: Bombing Cambodia Installing Pinochet in Chile Overthrowing Allende in Guatamala. Installing the Shah of IRAN. Propping up Marcos in the Phillippines. Propping up Samoza in Nicaragua. Supporting El Salvador who kept order through death squad tactics. Arming Islamic Radicals to oust the Soviet backed Northern Alliance in Afghanistan. Up and leaving thereafter.... oooops the Islamists turn against the the WEST. Go back in, arm the Northern Alliance to oust the Islamists. Oooops, fail to secure the country thereafter while off invading IRAQ --- give $10 Billion in belated to aid to Afghanistan. Arm Saddam Hussein with WMD. Then invade IRAQ to try and disarm SH for having WMD. Abu Ghraib Bay of Pigs Vietnam Mining Nicaragua's harbor. Having and embargo against Cuba and free trade with China. How amusing, in your list you conveniently left out the dozens, if not HUNDREDS of strictly humanitarian operations, doctor trips, foreign monetery aid and disaster relief sent all over the world. I deem your list, worthless.

philosophy -> RE: Those Evil Americans... (8/13/2008 5:40:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Thadius The only thing that I have implied is that some folks want to blame the US for every problem that occurs around the world. ...have you ever met one of these people? i haven't. i've met people who blame the US for problems accruing, at least in part, due to US foreign policy. i've even met people who think US economic policy is not good for the world at large. However, i've never met anyone who thinks that Swindon Town FC isn't playing well as a result of US policy. Or someone who thinks that British arrogance is a result of US cultural policy. Or anyone at all who thinks that the US is responsible for Celine Dion. There are a lot of things to reasonable criticise the US over. Just as there are for any country. Not many countries have such an impact on global politics as the US does though. So it may look as if there is a large body of people who blame the US for everything, but there isn't. i've been called anti-american in the past, usually for remembering things like the illegal mining of Nicaraguan ports and the funneling by US citizens of money to terrorists in Northern Ireland. i'm not anti-american, but i genuinely think that all countries need to be held accountable for their wrong-doing......even the USA.

cloudboy -> RE: Those Evil Americans... (8/13/2008 7:12:40 PM)
So, on your planet, there's a nexus between the Bush invasion and a 1998 action by Clinton? I'm sure that was front and center in the meetings of Rice, Rumsfeldt, Wolfowitz, Perle, and Cheney leading up to their battle plan. BTW: the link is broken.

cloudboy -> RE: Those Evil Americans... (8/13/2008 7:16:46 PM)
quote: How amusing, in your list you conveniently left out the dozens, if not HUNDREDS of strictly humanitarian operations, doctor trips, foreign monetery aid and disaster relief sent all over the world. I deem your list, worthless. Denial. That's a good retort. Let me know when you can proffer an explanation. I don't deny that there are American success stories. The Marshall Plan, WWII, the Peace Corps, Gulf WAR I, etc. But good works don't explain or justify the other things.

Owner59 -> RE: Those Evil Americans... (8/13/2008 7:21:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: batshalom Before we go off on a screaming tangent here, use the energy to do something important to you. If it's to save energy and cut our dependency on crude oil, do that. If it's to save starving orphans on every continent, do that. Instead of complaining and whining and jittering off ridiculous made-up statistics ~briefly looking at cuckyboy~ and instead of aiding and abetting hatred, do something productive. Thankyou batshalom. Well put.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Those Evil Americans... (8/13/2008 7:30:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy So, on your planet, there's a nexus between the Bush invasion and a 1998 action by Clinton? I'm sure that was front and center in the meetings of Rice, Rumsfeldt, Wolfowitz, Perle, and Cheney leading up to their battle plan. BTW: the link is broken. http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:H.R.4655.ENR: That the policy of the United States towards Iraq was the removal of Saddam Hussein since before George Bush even ran for President is fact. That Democrats pontificated against Saddam Hussein and accused him publicly of pursuing WMDs before George Bush even ran for President is fact. Bush's decision to invade is the end stage of an evolution begun during the Clinton Administration. The facts compel the conclusion. There are many reasons to criticize Operation Iraqi Freedom: lack of planning, faulty intelligence, inadequate advance PR work in the international community to secure international support and at least good will, just to name a few. However, to describe it as a radical departure from prior US policy towards Iraq is historically inaccurate and shamefully disingenuous.

Owner59 -> RE: Those Evil Americans... (8/13/2008 7:30:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Smith117 quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy quote: evil Americans First of all, the way the USA conducts foreign policy has little to do with "the Americans," "those evil Americans," or the average American. So you and your whole threadline are misleading. You have to look at the actual policymakers and evaluate what they've done. Here's a track record for you: Bombing Cambodia Installing Pinochet in Chile Overthrowing Allende in Guatamala. Installing the Shah of IRAN. Propping up Marcos in the Phillippines. Propping up Samoza in Nicaragua. Supporting El Salvador who kept order through death squad tactics. Arming Islamic Radicals to oust the Soviet backed Northern Alliance in Afghanistan. Up and leaving thereafter.... oooops the Islamists turn against the the WEST. Go back in, arm the Northern Alliance to oust the Islamists. Oooops, fail to secure the country thereafter while off invading IRAQ --- give $10 Billion in belated to aid to Afghanistan. Arm Saddam Hussein with WMD. Then invade IRAQ to try and disarm SH for having WMD. Abu Ghraib Bay of Pigs Vietnam Mining Nicaragua's harbor. Having and embargo against Cuba and free trade with China. How amusing, in your list you conveniently left out the dozens, if not HUNDREDS of strictly humanitarian operations, doctor trips, foreign monetery aid and disaster relief sent all over the world. I deem your list, worthless. Do the humanitarian efforts we`e done, somehow cancel out the damage we`ve done? Hardly. The Soviets did humanitarian work and so does fucking al-queda! God damm it! Does that mitigate the evil things done by them? Fuck no! I hate moral relativism.

MasterHermes -> RE: Those Evil Americans... (8/13/2008 7:41:32 PM)
This has got nothing to do with any specific country. If you look into how system works in the world markets, you can have a better understanding of the situation. No matter how high these donations are or will be they will never solve the problem. Because solving the problem is never aimed from the beginning. This is how it works: Developed countries give monetary aid to suffering countries so they can come back and buy more food and products from them. This way developed countries inject more money into their own economies while being sure poor countries will always stay dependent to their aids. Most of those donations never stay in poor countries local economies. It all returns back to developed nations. If the intention was really ending the hunger on earth, do you think it still would be impossible to help poor countries to grow their own food after spending trillions of dollars every year? Do you really not see anything wrong with this picture?

Smith117 -> RE: Those Evil Americans... (8/13/2008 7:46:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 Do the humanitarian efforts we`e done, somehow cancel out the damage we`ve done? Hardly. The Soviets did humanitarian work and so does fucking al-queda! God damm it! Does that mitigate the evil things done by them? It doesn't mitigate anything, though I'd hardly call the things in that list "evil." Evil was exterminating millions of Jews. All our shit don't smell like roses, but it's a far cry from some of the truly evil ones. What the humanitarian efforts that list failed to mention do accomplish is invalidating the list as a whole. If you're not going to list the good with the bad, it's no different than if I made a list entirely of good things the US has done and then said "see? we're benevolent saviors of the planet!" No one's ever said the US doesn't have a checkered past. But our scale's tipped rather strongly toward the positive than the negative. Does the US do somethings that suit its own interests? Surely. But when the world has basically nominated (then lamented) you as the world's policeman and savior demanding our help while offering none in return, we get into a situation where if the US doesn't look out for the US, no one will.

Owner59 -> RE: Those Evil Americans... (8/13/2008 7:59:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy So, on your planet, there's a nexus between the Bush invasion and a 1998 action by Clinton? I'm sure that was front and center in the meetings of Rice, Rumsfeldt, Wolfowitz, Perle, and Cheney leading up to their battle plan. BTW: the link is broken. http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:H.R.4655.ENR: That the policy of the United States towards Iraq was the removal of Saddam Hussein since before George Bush even ran for President is fact. That Democrats pontificated against Saddam Hussein and accused him publicly of pursuing WMDs before George Bush even ran for President is fact. Bush's decision to invade is the end stage of an evolution begun during the Clinton Administration. The facts compel the conclusion. There are many reasons to criticize Operation Iraqi Freedom: lack of planning, faulty intelligence, inadequate advance PR work in the international community to secure international support and at least good will, just to name a few. However, to describe it as a radical departure from prior US policy towards Iraq is historically inaccurate and shamefully disingenuous. Blah blah blah... We also had this knowledge,didn`t we. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BEsZMvrq-I Now we`re learning 1st hand, why and how Cheney was correct. Couple that with the fake letter linking Saddam to al-queda, and we have this disaster that the neo-cons lied us into. I`m so fucking tired on republicans making excuses and trying to weasel out of responsibility. They strutted and swaggered,congratulated themselves and declared "Mission Accomplished" when things seemed to going well in the beginning. When in reality,the one we know now,we had just begun to sow seeds of disaster. Now they run like girls from this. The neo-cons, will tell us what they thought at the time and will try to keep the discussion with in that context. But we know now,that Bush/Cheney were either duped and fooled by Saddam,or were lying to us. Take your pick.

philosophy -> RE: Those Evil Americans... (8/13/2008 8:08:28 PM)
...problem is, when someone makes a list opf the bad things done by US governments someone like yourself comes along and suggests a list of good things. Someone lists the good things, then someone comes along and lists the bad things........as if either strategy addressed the point. This applies to all countries, but as its the USA we're talking about....... ......the USA has done both good and bad things. No-one seriously denies that. However if we're discussing errors made, in an honest attempt to identify how those errors came about so they can become avoidable, then it actually does the USA a dis-service if the only response is to talk about the good things. Likewise, if the topic is good things done by a country, talked about so we can make sure those good things happen more often, then it does tyhe country a dis-service to immediately list bad things done. These polarised arguments really get us nowhere..........

Smith117 -> RE: Those Evil Americans... (8/13/2008 8:18:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy ...problem is, when someone makes a list opf the bad things done by US governments someone like yourself comes along and suggests a list of good things. Someone lists the good things, then someone comes along and lists the bad things........as if either strategy addressed the point. This applies to all countries, but as its the USA we're talking about....... ......the USA has done both good and bad things. No-one seriously denies that. However if we're discussing errors made, in an honest attempt to identify how those errors came about so they can become avoidable, then it actually does the USA a dis-service if the only response is to talk about the good things. Likewise, if the topic is good things done by a country, talked about so we can make sure those good things happen more often, then it does tyhe country a dis-service to immediately list bad things done. These polarised arguments really get us nowhere.......... Neither do discussions on the "evils" of a country that has done so much good. Mistakes were made. No one denies that either. But declaring a country with our track record "evil" is just silly. If you want to analyze the mistakes and prevent them, then address them as mistakes. Don't say the country is "evil" because of them. A country's people can only hear they're evil so many times before the collectively, if only subconciously, say "fuck it."

philosophy -> RE: Those Evil Americans... (8/13/2008 8:59:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Smith117 quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy ...problem is, when someone makes a list opf the bad things done by US governments someone like yourself comes along and suggests a list of good things. Someone lists the good things, then someone comes along and lists the bad things........as if either strategy addressed the point. This applies to all countries, but as its the USA we're talking about....... ......the USA has done both good and bad things. No-one seriously denies that. However if we're discussing errors made, in an honest attempt to identify how those errors came about so they can become avoidable, then it actually does the USA a dis-service if the only response is to talk about the good things. Likewise, if the topic is good things done by a country, talked about so we can make sure those good things happen more often, then it does tyhe country a dis-service to immediately list bad things done. These polarised arguments really get us nowhere.......... Neither do discussions on the "evils" of a country that has done so much good. Mistakes were made. No one denies that either. But declaring a country with our track record "evil" is just silly. If you want to analyze the mistakes and prevent them, then address them as mistakes. Don't say the country is "evil" because of them. A country's people can only hear they're evil so many times before the collectively, if only subconciously, say "fuck it." ...you'll notice that my choice of words was good/bad. i hear the phrase 'evil americans' said in a defensive context far more than an offensive one. However, if you're going to characterise the good things the USA has done as 'good', then it does make linguistic and semantic sense to characterise the 'mistakes', as you put it, as 'bad'. The USA, alongside its enormous power and influence, has a lot of weight on the world. It is not a country that effects the world in the same way that, say, Luxemburg does. Therefore it's 'mistakes' are more obvious.

kittinSol -> RE: Those Evil Americans... (8/13/2008 9:05:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Smith117 Neither do discussions on the "evils" of a country that has done so much good. You ought to address the OP's deliberate and self-confessed 'slant' and 'angle' then: he was the one who called Americans 'evil', after all.

caitlyn -> RE: Those Evil Americans... (8/13/2008 9:23:24 PM)
I guess I'm in denial also, because I also think your list is pretty worthless. Has America made some aweful mistakes ... obviously. So did the last super-power, and the one before, and the one before ... go back as far as you wish, and you will find super-powers royally fucking up. We are flawed creatures with flawed government, often ruled by people with flawed motives. Many thing that are obvious mistakes today, really looked like the thing to do at the time. Your point will be of value, only when we are ruled by the king of armchair quarterbacks.

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 5 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.046875