RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .WTF is this about?

RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .WTF is this about? (Full Version)

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meatcleaver -> RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .WTF is this about? (8/15/2008 7:48:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Polls taken during the 50's and 60's would have shown that most Citizens of western Europe resented the presence of America Air Bases in their backyard.The Responce by Nato and the U.S. Air Force was to apply the best thinking of Madison Ave....and turn a negative into a positive,they coined the phrase "The Sound of Freedom"...Public opinion polls are a really shitty way to make policy... The problem for the USA in Europe is that the European media is not so monotone as that in the USA and not so prone to propaganda because it is impossible for a government to control the message here because your neighbour also has a free press with the opinion your government might want to suppress. We also aren't as patriotic as Americans who can be prone to being accused of being unAmerican if they go against their government. You can't be unFrench, unGerman, unBritish. The other problem for the US with its foreign policy in Europe, there is always some politician willing to tell the truth about what is happening so if you think your government is lying to you, listen to your neighbour's news. Blair couldn't hide the fact that Chirac told him that the evidence pointed to Iraq having no WMDs and that the US and Britain were making the facts fit their policy, which was why the US couldn't get anyone else on board.

RealityLicks -> RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .WTF is this about? (8/15/2008 8:00:57 AM)
Someone has observed that opinion polls are a poor method of designing policy. It should follow then, that the analysis of NATO, which is still yet to offer a road map to entry to Georgia or Ukraine - being based on long-term political and strategic factors - should not be so lightly set aside by Washington. There's a reason for not rushing to admit these states. It was peaceful in that region before this latest escapade by these strangers to diplomacy. Next time, its to be hoped that they remember: if it ain't broke - don't fix it.

meatcleaver -> RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .WTF is this about? (8/15/2008 8:11:27 AM)
Its quite clear that US policy in Europe is having a destablizing effect. It is one of the reasons I think Europe should create its own defensive alliance and ask the USA to leave. The problem is, the rich and powerful of Europe have been bought by the American political elite.

RealityLicks -> RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .WTF is this about? (8/15/2008 8:29:55 AM)
In light of recent developments, I'd tend to agree. There's no doubt that the participation of a sane and level-headed US in NATO would be a huge advantage for both Europe and the US but their tendency to eschew the concerns of their partners and strike bilateral deals whenever they meet resistance makes a mockery of the organisation. Down the line, polarisation might lead to the Russians seeking to exploit their mineral wealth to undermine the American bias shown by France and the UK. But as we enter the teeth of a recession, this scenario is a hopelessly inept display of what passes for statesmanship under current leaders. [:'(] quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Its quite clear that US policy in Europe is having a destablizing effect. It is one of the reasons I think Europe should create its own defensive alliance and ask the USA to leave. The problem is, the rich and powerful of Europe have been bought by the American political elite.

Sanity -> RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .WTF is this about? (8/15/2008 9:00:36 AM)
Does Russia have nothing to do with this invasion of Georgia in your mind? quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Its quite clear that US policy in Europe is having a destablizing effect. It is one of the reasons I think Europe should create its own defensive alliance and ask the USA to leave. The problem is, the rich and powerful of Europe have been bought by the American political elite.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .WTF is this about? (8/15/2008 9:36:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Its quite clear that US policy in Europe is having a destablizing effect. It is one of the reasons I think Europe should create its own defensive alliance and ask the USA to leave. The problem is, the rich and powerful of Europe have been bought by the American political elite. So Russia is also a hapless tool of US foreign policy? They are a thug nation, a rogue nation, a bully nation, because the United States made them thus? Would you care to explain how this is so?

Thadius -> RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .WTF is this about? (8/15/2008 9:37:38 AM)
Simply put. You also ignored the portion about Tusk holding out for "Polish demands for US investment to upgrade its own armed forces. ", so the position of the Polish government is we will do it, we just want our military upgraded. But to be more specific... http://www.iht.com/articles/reuters/2008/08/14/europe/OUKWD-UK-SHIELD-POLAND.php quote: Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk had insisted the United States provide more military cooperation in return for consent to host 10 interceptor rockets at a base in northern Poland. quote: "We have crossed the Rubicon," Tusk said just before the deal was signed. "We have finally got understanding of our point of view that Poland, being a crucial partner in NATO and an important friend and ally of the United States, must also be safe." I wonder how much the recent Soviet, err I mean Russian actions had on influencing Poland to sign this deal now. Kind of interesting to keep reading that your opinion is that it is "American agrression" that is to blame for things. Could one not reasonably assume that, if Russia has no plans on reannexing former Soviet bloc countries, that there is no reason for this to be seen as a threat? Remember it is the Russians throwing around words like "punished". Talking to friends and family, yeah I have some over there, my ex-wife was first generation born here, the concern is about Russian aggression not about the missiles being placed there.

Owner59 -> RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .WTF is this about? (8/15/2008 9:39:46 AM)
You poke at a bear or tiger,you`re going to get a reaction.You might even get your arm torn off.To think otherwise,is naive. Of course the animal is dangerous.You know that going in. That`s why you have expert handlers that know what they`re doing and you contain the risks,as much as possible.Not a bunch of neo-con know-nothings.Condi Rice,what a joke. You can`t go poking at it,thinking you`re going to get away with it. To argue that this isn`t part of the bigger geo-political situation there, is naive.

RealityLicks -> RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .WTF is this about? (8/15/2008 10:02:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Thadius Talking to friends and family, yeah I have some over there, my ex-wife was first generation born here, the concern is about Russian aggression not about the missiles being placed there. Well, if we're getting scientific about it - my ex is Polish and just came back from her holiday there and she assures me everyone hates the thought that they will now be targeted by Russian missiles. It's a bit like the UK in the 80s and the huge antipathy against US cruise missiles being stationed here. Anecdotes prove nothing. Na Zdrowie!

RealityLicks -> RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .WTF is this about? (8/15/2008 10:05:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 So Russia is also a hapless tool of US foreign policy? They are a thug nation, a rogue nation, a bully nation, because the United States made them thus? They are also a rubber nation. And you are glue. It bounces off them and sticks to you. Yah. Boo.

Owner59 -> RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .WTF is this about? (8/15/2008 10:17:34 AM)
lol

Thadius -> RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .WTF is this about? (8/15/2008 10:43:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RealityLicks quote: ORIGINAL: Thadius Talking to friends and family, yeah I have some over there, my ex-wife was first generation born here, the concern is about Russian aggression not about the missiles being placed there. Well, if we're getting scientific about it - my ex is Polish and just came back from her holiday there and she assures me everyone hates the thought that they will now be targeted by Russian missiles. It's a bit like the UK in the 80s and the huge antipathy against US cruise missiles being stationed here. Anecdotes prove nothing. Na Zdrowie! You still ignore the links and proof I provide above my own personal observations... Nice attempt, it still does not address the fact that TUSK has signed off on the agreement. Interesting tactic.

slvemike4u -> RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .WTF is this about? (8/15/2008 10:56:24 AM)
This is becoming surreal...Russian agression = America bashing and a denial of America's role in protecting Western Europe from Russian Agression...Kafka himself would have rejected this storyline as too bizzare....

celticlord2112 -> RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .WTF is this about? (8/15/2008 11:29:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RealityLicks quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 So Russia is also a hapless tool of US foreign policy? They are a thug nation, a rogue nation, a bully nation, because the United States made them thus? They are also a rubber nation. And you are glue. It bounces off them and sticks to you. Yah. Boo. I see......

slvemike4u -> RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .WTF is this about? (8/15/2008 11:33:35 AM)
What was it Nicholson said in A Few Good Men...about sleeping under the very protection we provided...oh yeah something along the lines of preffering you just say Thank You...would seem not to be too much to ask...huh?

Vendaval -> RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .WTF is this about? (8/15/2008 11:45:48 AM)
I think there are wrongs on both sides of this conflict and that the oil resources of the region are a primary motivating factor. What worries me more is how many other countries may participate in this dispute and the law of unintended consequences. It was inevitable that after the Soviet Empire started to disintegrate the old disputes between rival ethnic groups and territories would start again. The question is how best to handle these conflcits. Most agree on starting with humanitarian aide and diplomacy. At what point if ever, should other nations intervene with military aide? Especially if one or both of the nations involved have treaties and alliances with the country providing the aide. quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver we will see in the coming weeks who was in the right, the Russians or the Georgians.

RealityLicks -> RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .WTF is this about? (8/15/2008 11:53:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 I see...... No, you don't. As long as you consider demonizing any group a legitimate manner in which to view conflict, you will see nothing but your own fear.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .WTF is this about? (8/15/2008 11:54:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u What was it Nicholson said in A Few Good Men...about sleeping under the very protection we provided...oh yeah something along the lines of preffering you just say Thank You...would seem not to be too much to ask...huh? Yes, it was Nicholson. Your point is....????

celticlord2112 -> RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .WTF is this about? (8/15/2008 11:58:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RealityLicks quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 I see...... No, you don't. As long as you consider demonizing any group a legitimate manner in which to view conflict, you will see nothing but your own fear. Russian tanks are in Georgian territory. Not South Ossetia, not Abkhazia, but uncontestably Georgian territory. That makes them a thug, rogue, bully nation. By definition. They can choose to be otherwise. All they need to do is back off, back down, stand down, and conduct their affairs in the manner of a civilized nation. They do that and I will be happy to stop referring to them in what you consider demonic terms. Until such time as they do this, they are disqualified from even the pretense of angelic halo. They are the demons in this drama by their own actions.

Thadius -> RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .WTF is this about? (8/15/2008 12:00:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RealityLicks quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 I see...... No, you don't. As long as you consider demonizing any group a legitimate manner in which to view conflict, you will see nothing but your own fear. My question for you is, why would Russia oppose another nation or nations from joining an organization that they themselves belong to?

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