RE: Obama's Foreign Donors (Full Version)

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Owner59 -> RE: Obama's Foreign Donors (8/15/2008 9:23:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Works for both sides. I offered info from factcheck.org about Obama accepting money from friends and family of oil companies in another thread, and everyone just breezed past that as well. The ping pong ball goes between the left and the right.


quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

PuckSR,

I've tried using fact check.org here...  sorry, but honest websites don't carry much weight with people who are card carrying members of the "Bush Youth."



"Please do read back. I hope you do read back. I encourage you to read back."

Sure,but you`ll have to say "pretty please,w/ sugar on top",first.......[image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m23.gif[/image]

Orian

I still disagree w/ you that both sides are somehow "equal", with the shenanigans.

Is there an example of this, coming from the left?

There are people who break the law by speeding and people who break the by stealing, fraud and homicide.True they`re all law breakers,but there`s a huge distinction.Ok?

This new book is born of and pushed by the radical-right lunatic fringe.

The dirt-bag,low-life campaign begins,unfortunately.





If this hasn`t been posted,Obama`s response to the bigot swifty`s book.


http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5j-xORhpHhivePOAxUDFJ3U1xmjJAD92IBGSG1




philosophy -> RE: Obama's Foreign Donors (8/15/2008 9:31:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Very sound logic. She has either looked at the material or she has not. The research was done or it was not. The quality of that research might be variable, the conclusions may or may not be valid, and the results of the research are subject to challenge, but whether the research was done can only be either/or.


...clearly a false assertion. A task such as this can be partially complete, as well as complete or wholly incomplete. Aristolian logic, as you are attempting to apply it here, fails to describe the real world. Taking the logic you are using, one would have to say that if one were to shoot someone, they are either dead because you hit them, or alive because you missed. Apparently flesh wounds don't happen.


quote:

A fact is either true or false. An assertion of fact is either true or false. There is not a third option.


.......schrodingers cat. There is a third option.





OrionTheWolf -> RE: Obama's Foreign Donors (8/15/2008 11:07:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Works for both sides. I offered info from factcheck.org about Obama accepting money from friends and family of oil companies in another thread, and everyone just breezed past that as well. The ping pong ball goes between the left and the right.



Orian

I still disagree w/ you that both sides are somehow "equal", with the shenanigans.


Never said equal, said both sides do it. Hell it would take ghandi, jesus, and buddha to give an unbiased report on who does what more. Also, I meant both sides on this forum.

quote:


Is there an example of this, coming from the left?

There are people who break the law by speeding and people who break the by stealing, fraud and homicide.True they`re all law breakers,but there`s a huge distinction.Ok?


It comes down to perceptions and opinion though. If someone is speeding at 80 or 120, it means little if they have an accident and kill someone. Saying that someone is worse, as a defense for soing something wrong, is still wrong.

quote:


This new book is born of and pushed by the radical-right lunatic fringe.

The dirt-bag,low-life campaign begins,unfortunately.

If this hasn`t been posted,Obama`s response to the bigot swifty`s book.


http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5j-xORhpHhivePOAxUDFJ3U1xmjJAD92IBGSG1


Is there something in this that applies to the OP? Politicians are all dirtbags really, I find it funny that people say "your dirt bag is more scummy than my dirt bag". Expend the energy and reject the dirtbags. Force them to be servants of the people again.




Thadius -> RE: Obama's Foreign Donors (8/15/2008 11:19:40 AM)

Have you actually read the 40 page rebuttal?  I just finished.

The biggest thing I got out of reading it, was "Corsi is a bigoted liar".  With only a few presentations of proof, or denials of the claims presented.  Although they do provide some interesting "it depends on the meaning of the word is is" arguments.
 
 
 
quote:

LIE: “As fully expected, the Obama campaign continued to maintain Obama had never talked to Auchi,
saying in effect that Levine had committed perjury.”
Reality:

“Mr Auchi’s lawyer told the Standard:
‘As far as he can remember he has had no direct contact with Mr Obama."

LIE:
“Obama could offer no explanation of why Rita Rezko bought the vacant lot instead…”
Reality:
Obama was asked, “Did he ever
explain to you what he was doing?” Obama replied, “No. I didn’t discover it until the issue of him purchasing
this lot broke through, uh, through you.”
 
They did answer some other things though, and it is about what I would expect from a politician.  I think the funniest one was their explanation about not knowing what Bill Ayers position was, the defense of the point that Obama had to know what Ayers stand was, is that the NY Times article published on 9/11/01 was based on an interview before 9/11.
 
quote:

 
REALITY: AYERS COMMENTS WERE PUBLISHED ON SEPTEMBER 11; THE INTERVIEW

OCCURRED PRIOR TO PUBLICATION

On September 11, 2001, A Story About William Ayers’ Memoir Was Published In The New York Times;

The Interview Occurred Prior To Publication.
“‘I don’t regret setting bombs,’ Bill Ayers said. ‘I feel we
didn’t do enough.’ Mr. Ayers, who spent the 1970’s as a fugitive in the Weather Underground, was sitting in the
kitchen of his big turn-of-the-19th-century stone house in the Hyde Park district of Chicago.”
 
That would seem like a no brainer, at least to me.  Newspaper interviews, are always handled prior to publication.  How does that change whether Obama knew or didn't know Ayers positions?  Regardless of whether the interview was on that date, it is quite apparent that those views were still held by Ayers when the interview was held.  Here is the article in it's entirety... http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F02E1DE1438F932A2575AC0A9679C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1
 
All of the smear out there needs to be taken with a grain of salt, the Republican smear machine and the Democrat smear machines are going to be in high gear over the next couple of months, so do some research for yourselves.  Taking things at face value, from either camp is a good way to lose a sense of perspective of the truth.  BOTH SIDES ARE GOING TO FLOOD US WITH GARBAGE.
 
Edited to fix the formatting of quotes...




MistressNew -> RE: Obama's Foreign Donors (8/15/2008 11:37:46 AM)

Re: the Corsi book

You can take it seriously or not, though many of his assertions are demonstrably false.

Do keep in mind, though, that he
1. has claimed that 9/11 was an inside job http://www.alexjonesfan58.com/mp3/20080129_alexjones_corsi.mp3
2. called Pope John Paul II "senile"
3. has gone on white supremecist talk shows http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/2004-08-10-book-author-sorry_x.htm http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/14/jerome-corsi-obama-nation_n_119034.html
4. has claimed that Muslims and Catholics are pedophiles. http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/2004-08-10-book-author-sorry_x.htm

And you shall judge them by the company they keep.





Thadius -> RE: Obama's Foreign Donors (8/15/2008 11:43:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressNew

Re: the Corsi book

You can take it seriously or not, though many of his assertions are demonstrably false.

Do keep in mind, though, that he
1. has claimed that 9/11 was an inside job http://www.alexjonesfan58.com/mp3/20080129_alexjones_corsi.mp3
2. called Pope John Paul II "senile"
3. has gone on white supremecist talk shows http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/2004-08-10-book-author-sorry_x.htm http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/14/jerome-corsi-obama-nation_n_119034.html
4. has claimed that Muslims and Catholics are pedophiles. http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/2004-08-10-book-author-sorry_x.htm

And you shall judge them by the company they keep.



Hope you don't mind me highlighting the crux of this entire thing..
Just wanted to point something out with your response, oh and the Obama rebuttal.

Your final line says it all, yet when it comes to judging Obama he wants folks to ignore the company he has kept.  Know what I mean?

We surely don't want to judge the Senator based on those standards do we?

Corsi, has indeed made some really crazy and insane assertions over the years, many of which I disagree with... The same could be said for some of the places that the beloved Senator has expressed some rather interesting ideas...





MistressNew -> RE: Obama's Foreign Donors (8/15/2008 11:46:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressNew

Re: the Corsi book

You can take it seriously or not, though many of his assertions are demonstrably false.

Do keep in mind, though, that he
1. has claimed that 9/11 was an inside job http://www.alexjonesfan58.com/mp3/20080129_alexjones_corsi.mp3
2. called Pope John Paul II "senile"
3. has gone on white supremecist talk shows http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/2004-08-10-book-author-sorry_x.htm http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/14/jerome-corsi-obama-nation_n_119034.html
4. has claimed that Muslims and Catholics are pedophiles. http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/2004-08-10-book-author-sorry_x.htm

And you shall judge them by the company they keep.



Hope you don't mind me highlighting the crux of this entire thing..
Just wanted to point something out with your response, oh and the Obama rebuttal.

Your final line says it all, yet when it comes to judging Obama he wants folks to ignore the company he has kept.  Know what I mean?

We surely don't want to judge the Senator based on those standards do we?

Corsi, has indeed made some really crazy and insane assertions over the years, many of which I disagree with... The same could be said for some of the places that the beloved Senator has expressed some rather interesting ideas...




That's right!  You show that strawman who is boss!  You kick his butt!




Thadius -> RE: Obama's Foreign Donors (8/15/2008 11:49:27 AM)

Your point is?




celticlord2112 -> RE: Obama's Foreign Donors (8/15/2008 11:51:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
...clearly a false assertion. A task such as this can be partially complete, as well as complete or wholly incomplete. Aristolian logic, as you are attempting to apply it here, fails to describe the real world. Taking the logic you are using, one would have to say that if one were to shoot someone, they are either dead because you hit them, or alive because you missed. Apparently flesh wounds don't happen.

Not when I'm doing the shooting, no, they do not.[;)]

However, your example does not apply in this case either. First, if you "shoot someone," then you have hit them. Otherwise you have merely "shot at them." A miss is therefore eliminated from the solution set. Having hit them, they are either alive or dead. If alive, then a flesh wound is necessarily the result. If they are dead...well, dead is dead. Even schrodinger can't get around that.

Further, her precise statement is "I have been researching....." Even if the task is, as you are wont to infer, partially complete, her statement is still categorically true. If she has not even started, her statement is categorically false. Your third option is therefore nonexistent.

Schrodinger's cat can take a nap now.




philosophy -> RE: Obama's Foreign Donors (8/15/2008 12:18:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

However, your example does not apply in this case either. First, if you "shoot someone," then you have hit them. Otherwise you have merely "shot at them." A miss is therefore eliminated from the solution set.


...nice try. i wonder if you see the implication. Was the article you mentioned in the OP a case of shooting someone or shooting at them? When you think about it, answering that question, if we follow your logic, means that we have pre-decided on the issue.
Perhaps a better use of your sophistry would be to consider the case of firing a gun........there are, obviously, three possible options not the two you want to reduce it down to.....hit and kill, hit and not kill, miss.

quote:

 Having hit them, they are either alive or dead. If alive, then a flesh wound is necessarily the result. If they are dead...well, dead is dead. Even schrodinger can't get around that.


Schrodinger is useful when we haven't pre-decided a situation. Essentially it gives us the option of indeterminency. So a thing can be true, false or not proven.

quote:

Further, her precise statement is "I have been researching....." Even if the task is, as you are wont to infer, partially complete, her statement is still categorically true. If she has not even started, her statement is categorically false. Your third option is therefore nonexistent.


...actually i was speaking to your use of logic rather than the article from the OP. You discarded the possibility of incomplete research, or incompetent research from the possible conclusions. It was either correct or false, according to you. Which denies the possibility of it being partially correct/false.

i am sure you are familiar with the phrase 'a kernal of truth'. There may well be a kernal of truth in the bloggers accusations. However, your demand that we either believe it all or disbelieve it all is not  a logical position. It's something else.




celticlord2112 -> RE: Obama's Foreign Donors (8/15/2008 1:11:43 PM)

There is no try...not here and not in real life. A fact remains either true or false. An assertion of fact is either true or false.

That is the beginning, middle, and end of my thesis regarding the blog referenced in my OP.

As for the merits of her accusations....so far no one, not even you, has managed to post even the pretense of rebuttal.

The world wonders.....




kittinSol -> RE: Obama's Foreign Donors (8/15/2008 1:54:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

A fact remains either true or false.



How can a fact be false?

Truth is amazing.




celticlord2112 -> RE: Obama's Foreign Donors (8/15/2008 2:21:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
Truth is amazing.

So's reality. That's why I prefer it.




philosophy -> RE: Obama's Foreign Donors (8/15/2008 2:24:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

There is no try...not here and not in real life. A fact remains either true or false. An assertion of fact is either true or false.




.....or the assertion can be mistaken..........as to whether or not a fact can be true or false, i'm sure even you will admit you made a semantic error there.
Any thesis can be critiqued on two types of point: data and methodology. i have no particular opinion regarding the data, i do have an opinion about sloppy methodology though.

You've expended a lot of words trying to defend a position that suggests that reality works on two value logic. That may, just, be true for an electrical circuit but it's almost never true regarding humans.




Alumbrado -> RE: Obama's Foreign Donors (8/15/2008 6:51:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


This guys denies the Tuskegee experiments?!?!!

I missed that fun time.....I`ll have to read back.

Now, it all makes sence.


Yeah, apparently the recorded history of the Tuskegee experiment as referenced in Rev. Wright's claim that the government deliberately infected black women and children by sending the Tuskegee subjects to whom they were lying about their medical condition home with a clean bill of health,  (while circulating memos about making sure that none of them got treated for syphillis elsewhere) is either a fact or an outrageous lie...do read back until you find out which one of the only two possible positions CL takes. 





Vendaval -> RE: Obama's Foreign Donors (8/15/2008 8:53:38 PM)

Yet another example of Godwin's Law in a political discussion here.   [&:]


"Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies)[1] is an adage formulated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states:[2][3]

"As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

Godwin's Law is often cited in online discussions as a caution against the use of inflammatory rhetoric or exaggerated comparisons, and is often conflated with fallacious arguments of the reductio ad Hitlerum form.
 
The rule does not make any statement whether any particular reference or comparison to Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that one arising is increasingly probable. It is precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued[4] that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law


quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

PuckSR,

I've tried using fact check.org here...  sorry, but honest websites don't carry much weight with people who are card carrying members of the "Bush Youth."




Vendaval -> RE: Obama's Foreign Donors (8/16/2008 4:43:19 PM)

A point that needs to be made about any type of political propaganda or indeed, any propaganda in general; is that the most effective character assassination mixes truth, lies, innuendos and speculation.
 
The bits of truth are there to make the claims somewhat credible and convince the easily deceived of the lies purposely implanted.  A mix of both truth and lies requires more time for refutation as well. The innuendo and speculation are designed to let the imagination of the reader create more sensationalist scenarios in their own immaginations and function as gasoline on a fire.   [sm=angry.gif]






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