RE: Safe calls, Negotiation, Safe Doms, and properly mentored submissives

RE: Safe calls, Negotiation, Safe Doms, and properly mentored submissives (Full Version)

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DavidS8ist -> RE: Safe calls, Negotiation, Safe Doms, and properly mentored submissives (8/15/2008 10:34:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark <snip> I absolutely believe that when people type out on here 'use a safe call' like it is some kind of mantra, I absolutely without a doubt believe they provide a false sense of security and remove the responsibility of common sense. the.dark. Are we related? We seem to be typing the same things simultaneously. :) D.

RCdc -> RE: Safe calls, Negotiation, Safe Doms, and properly mentored submissives (8/15/2008 10:39:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lynnxz quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark Lynnxz I can appriciate that for you they work ok, although you have to admit your experience and situation isn't the 'normal' BDSM interactions that are going to be brought up here and you have admitted that you pay for the guy to do this. That is protection, not a safe call. I don't believe that how you use the safe call is how the majority of people who do, is the same. the.dark. You can't think of ANYONE who wouldn't come crashing though a door to save you if you got in a tight spot?! Jesus! No wonder people don't like safe calls, they have grandma answering the phone! I wouldn't use a safe call. And yes I could have someone crashing through the doors IF I did. But then, I am open and out there. My parents, my best friends, my children all know I go to fetish events, that I am submissive to Darcy, that I paint erotica and that I (as my dad likes to put it so politely) 'do those kinky things she likes to go to'. But as I have repeatedly said, there are very few people that are as fucking lucky as me. How many here even tell their best friend what they do? How many won't even show a photo? How many people are in the postion like you to pay some big burly guy $50 an hour as security? And I believed you weren't that naive Lynnxz. the.dark.

RCdc -> RE: Safe calls, Negotiation, Safe Doms, and properly mentored submissives (8/15/2008 10:40:56 AM)
Maybe... I have irish and romany ancestory?[:D] the.dark.

RCdc -> RE: Safe calls, Negotiation, Safe Doms, and properly mentored submissives (8/15/2008 10:42:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lynnxz By the way, there isn't too much difference in meeting clients off the internet, and meeting some dude for kinky stuff off the internet for free. O.o There is when the person meeting clients can afford to pay for security. the.dark.

Lynnxz -> RE: Safe calls, Negotiation, Safe Doms, and properly mentored submissives (8/15/2008 10:43:40 AM)
If someone cannot find one person who cares about them enough to not give a shit about their personal prefrences, and who is going to be there for them when they need it, then I suppose they can't really have a safecall. Personally, I assumed that's what friends were. O.o The fact that I pay my safecalls makes no difference I still have them. The point was more of "Hey, this is the type of guy I would suggest using for a safecall" than "Hey, you should get a security guy" Sorry about that, I guess I came across the wrong way. Actually, I didn't start out paying them, but like I said, they are all good friends of mine, and they are doing something for me, there's no reason I shouldn't compensate them for it.

Owner4SexSlave -> RE: Safe calls, Negotiation, Safe Doms, and properly mentored submissives (8/15/2008 10:48:20 AM)
I think the OP was slamming how our Society currently has this obsession with coming up with Laws to protect ourselves from ourselves. To the point it is questionably imposes upon our freedoms and makes us fearful of shit. Driving 55mph or do you speed along at 75mph? How many people constantly break the law by speeding? Wait, you'd better wear your seat beat too. My God, how many have Not Worn Seat Belts and Speed and lived to talk about? Hell, you can't even have people in the back of your Pick-up truck anymore. You know like the Good old days. Anybody ever watch "The Waltons"? Damn that shit should be banned from TV because it's setting a bad example. It's showing parents putting their Children at risk. So much for loading the truck up with kids and going down to the creek to go swimming now days. Hell, I heard they are actually removing scenes from old movies that show people smoking. The thing is when at what point does Big Brother (the goverment) concern for our safety over extends itself and robs of us something called "Freedom" of choice? The Freedom to take our own risks even? I mean come on, what happened to concepts such as Adult Common sense here? I think I might take a Drive today, might speed a little and not wear a seat beat, feel my heart race from living life in the Danger Zone for a moment.

Knight0Errant -> RE: Safe calls, Negotiation, Safe Doms, and properly mentored submissives (8/15/2008 11:13:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DavidS8ist Or person expecting call lives in same town, knows where the guy lives, goes to his house, pounds on the door, and finds out friend was too busy getting orgasms to remember to call. Sorry, that's not my understanding as to how a safe call works. The friend is the one who calls person having the meet-up. Then, unless a 'Everything's ok, I'm not in danger.' codephrase is given (such as "The headache I had earlier is completely gone now."), the friend calls for help, not by reporting the person missing, but by reporting that the person is being assaulted and possibly raped or kidnapped at that location RIGHT NOW. Anyway.. to the OP... I agree. But I also disagree. All of the aspects of safety are there to be used if you wish. Just like the rest of the BDSM 'buffet'. Take what you want and try what looks interesting, or possibly essential, to you. I see the 'safety, safety, safety' mantra as a way to make sure that those 'new to all this' KNOW they can do these things and an effort to make it an acceptable thing. I.E. to make sure that no psycho asshole can tell a new sub/slave that she/he isn't allowed such things as safewords, safe-calls, etc. Just because I am not a Ted Bundy, does not mean that there are not those types out there. That being said, I totally agree with the sentiment that the safey issues are not something to be rammed down everyone's throat. They are not mandates. They are options. BDSM is playing out in the darkness, as you said. Hell, for me is is embracing/exploring/understanding my inner darkness. But trust is something that grows over time, and, especially early on, those who place themselves in my care will often need some reassurance and a sense that they are not in actual danger of harm or death. That's ok with me. It gives a chance to grow that trust and get to know one another that they might not have 'risked' if they could not mitigate their justified fear of harm or death. Later, once they know me and WANT to be terrified, I can oblige with an evil chuckle. And they will still go home safe, sound, and unharmed... and hopefully very satisfied. [Note for clarity: I define 'harm' as injury that is not desired/consented-to and would have long-term unwanted consequences. There is a world of difference between deadly stab wounds and broken bones (harm by my defintion) and any consented-to abrasion, cut, brand, welt, etc.]

vield -> RE: Safe calls, Negotiation, Safe Doms, and properly mentored submissives (8/15/2008 12:02:19 PM)
These safety topics will continue to come up time after time because there is no one way that works for everyone and keeps everyone safe. If one has nobody they can trust to be their safe call person or feels there is no one they can admit their kinks to enough for asking them to be a safe call person. this still does not mean a safe call is impossible. If you are using your own phone to make the call, the person you are having this first or second meeting with does not need to know that you actually have called your own voice mail either at home, at work, etc. If they are allowed to be close enough to overhear the call, they can only hear your end of the conversation. You could also send a voice mail before the meeting describing everything you know about the person you are meeting. Then when you make the first actual "safe call" you can give more information. No reason why you could not need to call out at times unknown to your new partner to your safe person, as well as taking calls coming in. If the new partner will not allow this you may wish to ask why before letting them strip or bind you. If in fact you have met a dangerous predator there is a chance that the thought that you might have a safe person could inhibit the predator from hurting or killing you. Of course there is also the scant comfort that if you do get "massacreed", you are leaving a record of who, what, when, where, why about the person you met, which might help the authorities catch him or her. There are true cases of times when a predator chose not to take out a victim because they knew the person had a safe person in contact with them or had made safe calls. I have had vanilla friends or relatives take or make safe calls for me with no idea about my lifestyle stuff, just because I asked them to do so for this "first date" or "blind date". So far any time I have done that the vanilla friend has agreed it was a good idea, and some of them have asked me to do safe calls with them for new people they date. Usually they wonder why they did not think of this idea themself. If someone asks where I got the idea, I just tell them a woman I once dated had done safe calls when she met me and that I thought it was a great idea. That is true, and I need not inflict my vanilla friends with the gory details of what we actually did on that date, just like I need not know what they do on their dates. LOL of course times have happened that later I discover the friends were kinky too. It has been a long time since I have needed a safe call to meet someone from the internet, because now I try to get people to become involved in local and regional scene events, social groups or discussion groups before ever beginning to negotiate play, mentoring, scenes or training with them. That way I see them in person before anything is planned and I know they at least appear to be the person they claim to be. There are so many resources like this these days that there is no need to be that "all alone" vulnerable person seeking such "forbidden stuff", as often was the case before the internet.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Safe calls, Negotiation, Safe Doms, and properly mentored submissives (8/15/2008 12:13:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark I have to disagree with the sports referee analagy and matching it with DMs. Totally different kettle of fish. Referees are in associations and governing bodies. DMs answer to none but - you guessed it - the law - oh and the tax man. DMs are not there to protect people, they are there to make sure that the club they work for doesn't get closed down because it is reported for shit. That people attend because it gets good reports. and attracts the kind of people they want to attract. If you don't fit the criteria, you will get less feedback. The fact is, people attending clubs, groups etc shouldn;t be relying on DMs to be some kind of guardian angel who is gonna swoop in and 'rescue' them. People need to take the shit they get themselves into and learn from it, not be rescued time and again. It's polititcs. the.dark. I agree with you that DMs are not there to protect people, and that each person who plays has the ultimate responsibility for his or her own safety -- but I also would hate to see one of the few places that I can play shut down because someone who was careless or who chose to be ignorant and play at something xhe didn't understand got into trouble. I think that it is -appropriate- that clubs and organizations who put out stuff for the community have someone in there to protect the club/organization. I say that because, in general, too many people are selfish, lazy, thoughtless, and don't give a damn about anything but their own pleasure--and don't care who gets hurt because they're assholes.... so I -still- say that having DMs to referee at clubs/events is just common sense. I don't give a crap that they're there to protect the club/organization interests -- if you're going to play in a venue procured by or run by that club/organization, then it makes sense that you abide by the house rules, and having DMs there to enforce that makes perfect sense. If someone doesn't like it, they don't have to play at that club/event. CFB

subtee -> RE: Safe calls, Negotiation, Safe Doms, and properly mentored submissives (8/15/2008 12:54:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkVictory To you know who... but not you. I don't like you, you're not my friend. You and your ilk, you fear the darkness. You make rules to push the darkness back. You drive 55, or at least think I should. You make your kids and friends wear bicycle helmets and motorcycle helmets, and seat belts. You know what is best for me and mine, and you're happy to dispense that advice. I don't like you. You fear the darkness, and you want to safety pad everything. You want kids to be seen and not heard, unless they're your kids. You want others to obey your rules for their own darned good. No more playing out in the street until darkness and your mom force you in. No more camping out over night, just three friends and the night air, and being grown up and staying. No more being told to man up and hit back. No more being told to walk it off and stop crying. You, and your type, you weaken what it is to be an adult. Those of us that stand on two feet and defy the night to do its worst, you fear and dislike us. We're throwbacks to an older age, more raw and primal than you want your world to be. I have a message for you. Ready? Fuck you. In the end, I will win. I will stand in the darkness, I will shave with a straight razor, and I will be an adult. If I fuck up, I take what I have coming, and I move on. You can lay down and moan. I will step over you. That out there, the thing you fear, that's the future coming, and it's coming like a freight train. Go ahead, make your safe calls, make your dire warnings. Live in that fear. Me, I refuse. BDSM is scary, dark, and passionate... when it's done right. How dare you try to kill that? Go on, take me out, I dare you. You can find me over here, in the dark corner... waiting. I don't understand the vitriol here. Is this literature? "Fuck you?" Really? You will win? Who is trying to kill your BDSM? I dig passion and you've got it, but I don't see the reason on the other side of it. It's interesting...

Wildfleurs -> RE: Safe calls, Negotiation, Safe Doms, and properly mentored submissives (8/15/2008 1:09:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkVictory To you know who... but not you. I don't like you, you're not my friend. You and your ilk, you fear the darkness. You make rules to push the darkness back. You drive 55, or at least think I should. You make your kids and friends wear bicycle helmets and motorcycle helmets, and seat belts. You know what is best for me and mine, and you're happy to dispense that advice. I don't like you. You fear the darkness, and you want to safety pad everything. You want kids to be seen and not heard, unless they're your kids. You want others to obey your rules for their own darned good. No more playing out in the street until darkness and your mom force you in. No more camping out over night, just three friends and the night air, and being grown up and staying. No more being told to man up and hit back. No more being told to walk it off and stop crying. You, and your type, you weaken what it is to be an adult. Those of us that stand on two feet and defy the night to do its worst, you fear and dislike us. We're throwbacks to an older age, more raw and primal than you want your world to be. I have a message for you. Ready? Fuck you. In the end, I will win. I will stand in the darkness, I will shave with a straight razor, and I will be an adult. If I fuck up, I take what I have coming, and I move on. You can lay down and moan. I will step over you. That out there, the thing you fear, that's the future coming, and it's coming like a freight train. Go ahead, make your safe calls, make your dire warnings. Live in that fear. Me, I refuse. BDSM is scary, dark, and passionate... when it's done right. How dare you try to kill that? Go on, take me out, I dare you. You can find me over here, in the dark corner... waiting. I haven't read the four pages, so I have no idea if I'm alone in this reaction or not but... Just a general thought on the concept of BDSM being dark and scary - given that most people that show up at events look like they rolled in from their kids soccer game (not to mention the utter banality of life, kink, and such) I really can't see it as dark or scary. For the most part when I hear it referred to as dark, it just seems a bit awkward and dorky. What's dark and scary to me are serial killers and psychopaths. Until WIITWD becomes filled with those people, I can't see it as remotely dark or scary, nor do I fit into the mold of "subbies" that are oh so scared of the "big bad doms." C~

RedMagic1 -> RE: Safe calls, Negotiation, Safe Doms, and properly mentored submissives (8/15/2008 2:35:11 PM)
I agree with Lynn, and I am sorry dark, but yes I think you are condescending, and I would ask you to step back for a moment. The first point of address in contact is to discover potential common interest, and to weed out danger. Anyone who will cancel a meet because of a safety feature is someone I certainly wouldn't want in my life. Having some basic safety features in place, even if they are never used, will raise the quality of person you are dealing with in real. I posted in the "Uber" thread that there's a woman flying in to meet me this evening, who I first emailed seven days ago. She's planning to stay at my place for four days. Now on the one hand, there's a whole hell of a lot of online chemistry. On the other hand, she's seen my web site and I've seen hers. Her "safe call" is her ex-husband, and I've seen his google footprint too. She has a copy of my drivers license. Either one of us would be easily traceable and prosecutable if I were to kill her, or she were to steal my identity. And, of course, there's always the possibility that she won't get on the plane, although she confirmed with me about an hour ago. If that happens, I'll know something that was worth the cost of half a plane ticket to learn. Part of my filter is whether someone is able to show up.

RCdc -> RE: Safe calls, Negotiation, Safe Doms, and properly mentored submissives (8/15/2008 3:24:36 PM)
I may have been condecending saying that I find people who say 'who cares' as stupid. The rest isn't as far as I am concerned but it's all down to personal interpretation hey. I never said that people shouldn't have safe calls. What I said is that people should not preach that they are the be and end all and should be relied on as a good option or talk as if they have any impact on safety. They don't. They won't stop you getting hurt. They merely allow people to alert the authorities once you are already off the radar. That doesn't sound very 'safe' to me. It's like closing the door once the horse has bolted. the.dark.

Roselaure -> RE: Safe calls, Negotiation, Safe Doms, and properly mentored submissives (8/15/2008 3:48:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP I really don't care what idiocies others do. As long as I don't have to pay for it. That means if you ride a motorcycle without a helmet, you better have ten million in insurance to cover the cost of 40 years in a head trauma facility. I don't want my taxes raised to pay for you. That means the same if your kids ride without a seatbelt. I should not pay for your stupidity. Same with second hand smoke. I don't want an increased risk of lung cancer, heart disease etc because you insist on smoking in a restaurant. And you better be able to pay for your own health care. Do what you want, ruin your kids' lives, but don't expect me to pick up the tab. Be an adult and pay for your own mistakes. I've heard this argument before for one group of people imposing their standards on another and it's specious. At it's premise is the belief that if you are careful enough life can be safe.

Roselaure -> RE: Safe calls, Negotiation, Safe Doms, and properly mentored submissives (8/15/2008 3:55:12 PM)
Ah, the childproofing of society. If you are careful enough, take every precaution, plan for every contingency, you are still going to die, but will you really have lived? I fully admit DV that you scare the living shit out of me. But I'm just twisted enough to like that.

DreamsOfSpider -> RE: Safe calls, Negotiation, Safe Doms, and properly mentored submissives (8/15/2008 5:11:35 PM)
DarkVictory, If I may, I'd like to ask a rather personal question. No need to answer if it bothers you to do so. As an adult, have you ever been raped? Or been in a situation where you were afraid of being raped? I may be making assumptions that I shouldn't make... but I see a straight, white, dominant male "defying the night to do its worst." Statistically speaking, you can "stand in the darkness" all night long... without risking what a woman does, walking through it at a brisk pace. Literally and metaphorically, both.

mztresn0w -> RE: Safe calls, Negotiation, Safe Doms, and properly mentored submissives (8/15/2008 5:48:25 PM)
Wow, What an interesting thread. Yes I ride the Harley with out a helmet. I can only hope that if I go down that they can harvest my organs to save a few people on the donor list. Wow and I am a smoker. So before anyone starts No I would not be a burden on the health care system. You can only be a burden on the system if you decide to abuse it. Do I fear death no I don't. I will face what ever happens to me with a smile on my face and know I have lived a wonderful life and embrace death as I have embraced living with no regrets. Do I use safewords only if I am with someone that needs that? I don't judge people by a safe word or a safe call. No, I respect that fact that is what they need. Are either of us any safer because of it? No, but peace of mind is priceless............................

Alumbrado -> RE: Safe calls, Negotiation, Safe Doms, and properly mentored submissives (8/15/2008 5:50:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Roselaure quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP I really don't care what idiocies others do. As long as I don't have to pay for it. That means if you ride a motorcycle without a helmet, you better have ten million in insurance to cover the cost of 40 years in a head trauma facility. I don't want my taxes raised to pay for you. That means the same if your kids ride without a seatbelt. I should not pay for your stupidity. Same with second hand smoke. I don't want an increased risk of lung cancer, heart disease etc because you insist on smoking in a restaurant. And you better be able to pay for your own health care. Do what you want, ruin your kids' lives, but don't expect me to pick up the tab. Be an adult and pay for your own mistakes. I've heard this argument before for one group of people imposing their standards on another and it's specious. At it's premise is the belief that if you are careful enough life can be safe. Imposing their standards? Telling someone who wants to ride without a helmet to go ahead, just don't expect me to foot the bill for your shiny new wheel chair and your ostomy bag when it turns out your fantasy couldn't stand up to the laws of physics is imposing? And expecting one's every whim, and the consequences therof to be catered to by people think that life can be made in some measure safer, isn't imposing? Dream on.

Maxwell67 -> RE: Safe calls, Negotiation, Safe Doms, and properly mentored submissives (8/15/2008 6:08:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado And expecting one's every whim, and the consequences therof to be catered to by people think that life can be made in some measure safer, isn't imposing? Dream on. Hmmm.. I have not seen anyone claim that they were owed any special treatment for their behavior. Sure there are claims from people who say they will TAKE special treatment for it, but they are talking about taking control of their environment, and owning their lives. They are not talking about taking a hand out. As to your having to shoulder some of the harm done by someone else's stupidity, that is going to happen, and no amount of bitching about it can change it. Welcome to the concept of the Social Contract. There are anarchists and libertarians who might have themselves convinced that our species can exist without it, but only in a perfect world would that be possible.

Roselaure -> RE: Safe calls, Negotiation, Safe Doms, and properly mentored submissives (8/15/2008 6:15:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: ORIGINAL: Roselaure quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP I really don't care what idiocies others do. As long as I don't have to pay for it. That means if you ride a motorcycle without a helmet, you better have ten million in insurance to cover the cost of 40 years in a head trauma facility. I don't want my taxes raised to pay for you. That means the same if your kids ride without a seatbelt. I should not pay for your stupidity. Same with second hand smoke. I don't want an increased risk of lung cancer, heart disease etc because you insist on smoking in a restaurant. And you better be able to pay for your own health care. Do what you want, ruin your kids' lives, but don't expect me to pick up the tab. Be an adult and pay for your own mistakes. I've heard this argument before for one group of people imposing their standards on another and it's specious. At it's premise is the belief that if you are careful enough life can be safe. Imposing their standards? Telling someone who wants to ride without a helmet to go ahead, just don't expect me to foot the bill for your shiny new wheel chair and your ostomy bag when it turns out your fantasy couldn't stand up to the laws of physics is imposing? And expecting one's every whim, and the consequences therof to be catered to by people think that life can be made in some measure safer, isn't imposing? Dream on. These are two different issues. So I'll address them separately. The idea that if you are careful enough nothing bad will happen is erroneous. What constitutes reasonable caution varies from person to person and the more cautious don't have the right to impose their standards on the less cautious. The idea that society should not be responsible for caring for the sick and infirm if their infirmity is in any way self inflicted is another. It would be awfully hard to draw the line I think. Any disease that is not purely congenital can be influenced by life choices. How would society decide who was worth saving and who wasn't? You eat bacon and cheese for 30 years and have a heart attack? why should I pay for that? You go to church and choke on a communion wafer? You're on your own, pal.

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