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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 1:22:44 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Mike,  it was a Jim Jones reference
Oh I got that part Thadius,I am still trying to wrap my mind around the allies part.Maybe you can help me there ,would this be before or after the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany carved her up.Or might she be referring to the period of the fraternal brotherhood of workers that was the former Warsaw Pact...

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 1:28:58 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

I'm referring of course to the Warsaw Pact.  The perfect opportunity for more antiquated characterisation of Russians as moustachio-twirling bad hats.

Before the outpouring of predictable propaganda begins, please remember that none of it's new and try and keep it short.  I'll check back later to see if anything worth a response emerges.


Well to put it into context,one can here America's allies in Iraq referred to as the Coalition of the unwilling,this would mean members of the Warsaw Pact could be referred to as a coalition of the coerced.When your "allies" have to be coerced to remain "allies"at the point of a Soviet tank division,it is stretching the meaning of the word allie is it not....

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 182
RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 1:44:57 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

I'm referring of course to the Warsaw Pact.  The perfect opportunity for more antiquated characterisation of Russians as moustachio-twirling bad hats.

Before the outpouring of predictable propaganda begins, please remember that none of it's new and try and keep it short.  I'll check back later to see if anything worth a response emerges.


Forget predictable properganda let us instead look at your own link,and think about the true meaning of allies....


Nominally the Warsaw Pact was a response to a similar treaty made by the Western Allies in 1949 (the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, or NATO) as well as the re-militarization of West Germany in 1954, both of which posed a potential threat to the Eastern countries. Although it was stressed by all that the Warsaw Treaty was based on total equality of each nation and mutual non-interference in one another’s internal affairs, the Pact quickly became a powerful political tool for the Soviet Union to hold sway over its allies and harness the powers of their combined military. When Hungary tried to extricate themselves from the agreement in 1956, Soviet forces moved to crush the uprising; and, in 1968, Soviet troops invaded Czechoslovakia (with support from five other Pact members), after the Czech government began to exhibit ‘Imperialistic’ tendencies.

Following the diminishing power of the USSR in the 1980s and the eventual fall of Communism the treaty became redundant. The Warsaw Pact was officially dissolved in Prague in 1991, after successive governments withdrew their support of the treaty.

Now in a previous post i referred to the "coalitition of the unwilling".Well America might and has used leverage to keep allies aligned,please explain how that compares with Soviet Tank divisions rolling thru your "allies" major cities
Your definitionof allies seems a little "loose" no?

< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 8/18/2008 1:45:29 PM >

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 183
RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 1:51:50 PM   
Thadius


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Status: offline 		Not to get too far off of topic here, you just reminded me of an old saying "The only thing more accurate than enemy fire, is incoming friendly fire". 

There are definitely some loose use of terms, and perhaps some of the "propaganda" on either side is more a mistranslation or matter of semantics.  However, rolling tanks are very hard to misinterpret, be it enemy or ally.

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 2:06:27 PM   
slvemike4u


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Status: offline 		Damm Skippy Thadius when your "allies" start rolling tanks down your streets,you sort of have to re-evaluate the relationship huh?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 185
RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 2:10:43 PM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		I am aware of the events referred to and you will find no apologia for them in my posts.  I will just say that in 1956, a black man like me would not be extolling the freedoms offered me by the US.  In 1968, I doubt the Chicago Seven would either.  All sides have their sicknesses and its interesting to observe those who today cast aside their sticks and declare themselves healed.

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 2:14:58 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

I am aware of the events referred to and you will find no apologia for them in my posts.  I will just say that in 1956, a black man like me would not be extolling the freedoms offered me by the US.  In 1968, I doubt the Chicago Seven would either.  All sides have their sicknesses and its interesting to observe those who today cast aside their sticks and declare themselves healed.
But Reality you seem to miss the point,would a black man in 1956 have refered to a cracker kkk member as an ally,or would the Chicago Seven have referred to Mayor Daly's cops as allies...I don't think so ,yet in both case circumstances forced the parties in both examples to coexist and at times occupy the same sphere..it dit not make them allies though..

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 2:18:09 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

I am aware of the events referred to and you will find no apologia for them in my posts.  I will just say that in 1956, a black man like me would not be extolling the freedoms offered me by the US.  In 1968, I doubt the Chicago Seven would either.  All sides have their sicknesses and its interesting to observe those who today cast aside their sticks and declare themselves healed.


What does the '68 happenings have to do with the price of tea in China? 

You are not suggesting that the US could have rolled tanks through Paris to force whatever position it wanted because they are allied? Because that is exactly how Russia seems to want to enforce "treaties with allies".

Your positions are fluctuating so much it is beginning to be hard to follow, please be more specific.  If you have to stick to the topic at hand, the Russian response to Poland's agreement to host part of the missile shield.

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 2:26:37 PM   
RealityLicks


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

But Reality you seem to miss the point,would a black man in 1956 have refered to a cracker kkk member as an ally,or would the Chicago Seven have referred to Mayor Daly's cops as allies...


Segregation wasn't restricted to kkk members in 56 - think Rosa Parks -- and the Chicago Seven were bound and gagged in your Supreme Court before the eyes of the whole world.  What this illustrates is that as times have changed in your country, they have changed in others, too.

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 2:29:21 PM   
RealityLicks


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

What does the '68 happenings have to do with the price of tea in China? 


I dunno, if i see Fu Manchu, I'll ask him.

quote:


Your positions are fluctuating so much it is beginning to be hard to follow, please be more specific. 


In what way have they fluctuated?

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 2:41:09 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

What does the '68 happenings have to do with the price of tea in China? 


I dunno, if i see Fu Manchu, I'll ask him.

quote:


Your positions are fluctuating so much it is beginning to be hard to follow, please be more specific. 


In what way have they fluctuated?


You are now comparing racial segregation to threatening a neighbor with military force and or the use of nukes.  You don't see a bit of a "off the beaten track" moment there?

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When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 4:21:26 PM   
slvemike4u


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Status: offline 		And still Reality you miss the point,no one is suggesting that America does not have its dark and regrettable past,but if you are insisting on making an analogy make it relevant.Give an example of when America forced a NATO nation to "remain"an ally by running Sherman or Abrams tanks down the "allies"capitol streets.
  Remember it was you that referred to Poland and the ex-Soviet Union as allies,please show us how under the loosest of definitions that was ever a true statement

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Thadius)
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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 4:38:14 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Apparently, there are folks that were living in South Ossetia that prefer one of the combatants over the other... I don't think that has ever been in dispute.  The legal question here is, to which country does (did) this province belong to as of Aug 7th, 2008?


According to international law the declaration of independence of Kosovo by the US and other western countries was illegal (FACT!). At the time the Russians said they will understand the precedence of Kosovo to be a model on which they shall base the future legal status of breakway provinces of other countries. The west ignored Russia and illegally recognized the independence of Kosovo. For the west now to turn around and say Russia is acting illegally (especially with the ethnic cleansing of its citizens) is the height of hypocracy. The US would hvae done the same to defend its citizens.

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 4:45:36 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

And still Reality you miss the point,no one is suggesting that America does not have its dark and regrettable past,but if you are insisting on making an analogy make it relevant.Give an example of when America forced a NATO nation to "remain"an ally by running Sherman or Abrams tanks down the "allies"capitol streets.
Remember it was you that referred to Poland and the ex-Soviet Union as allies,please show us how under the loosest of definitions that was ever a true statement


Read the history of the British Empire, you don't need tanks or armies to subjugate a nation. The American establishment learnt a lot from Britain and know how to divide and rule.

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 4:51:17 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

-- and the Chicago Seven were bound and gagged in your Supreme Court before the eyes of the whole world.  What this illustrates is that as times have changed in your country, they have changed in others, too.


And making up easily disproven lies such as the above accomplishes exactly what again? 

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 4:56:54 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Apparently, there are folks that were living in South Ossetia that prefer one of the combatants over the other... I don't think that has ever been in dispute.  The legal question here is, to which country does (did) this province belong to as of Aug 7th, 2008?


According to international law the declaration of independence of Kosovo by the US and other western countries was illegal (FACT!). At the time the Russians said they will understand the precedence of Kosovo to be a model on which they shall base the future legal status of breakway provinces of other countries. The west ignored Russia and illegally recognized the independence of Kosovo. For the west now to turn around and say Russia is acting illegally (especially with the ethnic cleansing of its citizens) is the height of hypocracy. The US would hvae done the same to defend its citizens.
Meatcleaver you seem to have a little problem with facts,the US and the western countries did not declare Kosovo independant,they recognised Kosovo's Declaration of independance...a small but important distinction when one is labeling something as (FACT!)
As to the Russian citizen's part of your post please see post # 162 in this thread and explain how this is different.This has been the most obvious form of Gerrymandering the world has ever seen(an american political term for redrawing the lines of a particular district so as to ensure the results sought in an upcoming election...no charge for the explanation)

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 4:59:37 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
Meatcleaver you seem to have a little problem with facts,the US and the western countries did not declare Kosovo independant,they recognised Kosovo's Declaration of independance...a small but important distinction when one is labeling something as (FACT!)


Same thing, they recognized and acknowledged a legal precedence, they can't then say someone doing the same is illegal.

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 5:01:16 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

As to the Russian citizen's part of your post please see post # 162 in this thread and explain how this is different.This has been the most obvious form of Gerrymandering the world has ever seen(an american political term for redrawing the lines of a particular district so as to ensure the results sought in an upcoming election...no charge for the explanation)


Every state in the world has been gerrymandered, that's why there are states.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/18/2008 5:02:06 PM >

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 5:18:03 PM   
slvemike4u


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Status: offline 		No Meatcleaver you cannot state something as fact be shown to be wrong ,and than say same thing.Recognising a government is not and never will be the same thing as a declaration of said government's existance.In the former you are merely aknowledging the said state in the latter you are declaring and forming said state...For instance the US recognised the State of Isreal in 1948 they did not declare Isreal's independance,as I said in my first post a small but major difference in distinction

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 5:18:14 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Chicago Seven were bound and gagged in your Supreme Court before the eyes of the whole world.

The Chicago Seven never even appeared in the US Supreme Court.


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