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Is there a downside to submission? - 8/20/2008 2:45:43 AM   
westernbutterfly


Posts: 8
Joined: 4/11/2008
Status: offline 		Not sure how to ask this, so please excuse me if this doesn't make sense ....

I am new to the lifestyle--well, it's been two years, but I've only been with one Dom.  Prior to that, I was a relatively strong, independent, successful female who is accomplished, meaning great grades, good job, all that jazz--professionally, I've never really failed at anything.  Then I found the lifestyle and Him, and it's been a wild and crazy ride, one that I don't regret.  BUT, in the process of trying to figure out my role as a submissive and doing what I could to please Him and serve Him, I seem to have lost the rest of me.  To me, it seems that I've changed from a strong, independent, successful female to a whiny, wimpy, codependent, pathetic thing who has made a habit of failure.  This past June was the culminating event.  Perhaps there just wasn't enough time for Him and everything else, but I have never been in my life as unsuccessful as I have been these past two years.  Everything that I have always been good at has seriously gone downhill. 

Has this happened to anyone else?  What did I do wrong?  I'm really rethinking the whole D/s lifestyle, as I'm not so fond of this person that has emerged ....
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RE: Is there a downside to submission? - 8/20/2008 2:47:21 AM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		A good match should build you up-only a poor one will tear you down.

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RE: Is there a downside to submission? - 8/20/2008 2:52:03 AM   
simpleplan2


Posts: 461
Joined: 7/5/2008
Status: offline 		Honey, everything in life is about balance.  You may have been trying so hard to be the "perfect" submissive, that you let too many other things slide.  You may have been setting yourself up for failure.  Take some time and discover what's important to you.  How can you accomplish your goals?  No one is perfect...we are all human and make mistakes.  Work on getting your life back in order first.  Good luck.

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RE: Is there a downside to submission? - 8/20/2008 2:59:36 AM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		The fact that a partner sees someone going downhill for two years and does nada is the telling part to me.

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RE: Is there a downside to submission? - 8/20/2008 3:15:38 AM   
simpleplan2


Posts: 461
Joined: 7/5/2008
Status: offline 		Perhaps, but aren't we all ultimately responsible for our own choices? 

< Message edited by simpleplan2 -- 8/20/2008 3:19:58 AM >

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RE: Is there a downside to submission? - 8/20/2008 4:16:12 AM   
eyesopened


Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline 		I agree with Leatherist, as I normally do.  However, without knowing your definitions of success and failure, it's not possible to know exactly how to offer advice.  I can only offer my view on what submission is for me.  My Master owns me which means He owns my talents, knowledge, wisdom, and all my capabilities.  He owns my success.  He also owns my failures.  In order to be the best possible slave, it is important for me to maintain my talents, my successes because that's what I presented to Him when I begged His collar.  I would not be serving to the best of my abilities if I allowed myself to become less than that of which He took ownership.  My life as His slave does not replace what I was, it is in addition to, an enrichment to my life.

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RE: Is there a downside to submission? - 8/20/2008 5:08:18 AM   
Twicehappy2x


Posts: 1096
Joined: 3/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: simpleplan2

Perhaps, but aren't we all ultimately responsible for our own choices? 


The paradox of the "good" submissive.
 
Do we keep offering ourselves, waiting, hoping that the day comes that the dominant notices that we have been serving, smiling, trying to be pleasing while hanging on, waiting, wanting, hoping they notice?
 
For how long should we do this before deciding to take care of, protect ourselves and start making our own choices again?
 
Are we "good" submissives because we wait? Or are we "good" submissives when we voice our needs?
 
Or are we "bad" submissives because we dared have needs, wants of our own? Because we expect reciprocity for our service?
 
Who is responsible?
 
The submissive because she did what was expected of her and patiently waited for the dominant to do his part?
 
The dominant for not noticing or taking care of the submissives issues?
 
Or the submissive for not making her own choices immediately.
 
True, the submissive is the one who chose to do what she did, but was it part of their arrangement that the dominant was supposed to have noticed what was going on and do something about it? 
 
If so, then ultimately whose fault was the failing?

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RE: Is there a downside to submission? - 8/20/2008 5:13:48 AM   
simpleplan2


Posts: 461
Joined: 7/5/2008
Status: offline 		Morning sweetie :)

Good questions and I will admit that I don't have the answers...only the answers that I can live with.  I freely admit that I'm prolly not a "good" submissive for most.  I honestly don't believe that any dominant is going to ride in on his white horse and make my world perfect.  I honestly believe that I'm the one who has to make my world the best it can be.  If I don't achieve that balance, I don't think anyone can do it for me.

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RE: Is there a downside to submission? - 8/20/2008 5:16:56 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Balance, and a better choice of partners. He allowed you, indeed encouraged you, not to work on your schooling, career, familial relationships, but to devote all your time and attention to him. You ignored the failing grades, bad progress reports etc. You are both responsible.

But you are responsible for choosing such a person for yourself. Next time find someone who doesn't suck their partners dry but instead insists on them remaining in good health. Someone who encourages you to do well in other arenas and applauds you for your successes instead of being so insecure that they seek to have their partner fail.

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RE: Is there a downside to submission? - 8/20/2008 5:30:07 AM   
Twicehappy2x


Posts: 1096
Joined: 3/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: simpleplan2

Morning sweetie :)

Good questions and I will admit that I don't have the answers...only the answers that I can live with. 


Good morning to you as well.
 
I have to agree with you, i only have the answers to that set of questions that work for me.
 
I think the answers i get will depend on the individual.
 
There are going to be those whose reply will be that a "good" submissive is to do the "super woman" thing and do it all on their own.
 
Then there will be those whose response will state it is up to the dominant to address the issues the submissive is having.
 
For me, it depends on the issue.
 
A lot of stuff i just handle, i mean, really, most of life is common sense. But then recently, given my reactions to several situations i have watched one of my close friends handle and after listening to how a few other submissives handled their situations in the past, i have come to the conclusion that i am often a hard, cold bitch on a lot of subjects.
 
It is the emotional issues i most often find myself just watching and waiting on. I must have the time sense of the Sphinx because i have and will ponder these types of issues for a year or more before making a choice or a decision.
 
And the patience of a stalking cat, because i give those i love that amount of time to notice those types of issues for themselves.
 
When i do that however, i know it is my own fault, at least the waiting part, if not the outcome. I think given time, most stuff resolves itself. Or at least given time, i eventually watch the truth of the situation unfold for me.
 
Then i make a choice on that issue, though emotional choices are hard for me. I am as forgiving to that which i love as i am hard on life choices. So i rarely bring up those types of issues due to not wanting to cause pain. That i acknowledge is my fault, lol, or at least my nature.

< Message edited by Twicehappy2x -- 8/20/2008 5:33:37 AM >

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RE: Is there a downside to submission? - 8/20/2008 5:35:43 AM   
simpleplan2


Posts: 461
Joined: 7/5/2008
Status: offline 		Exactly...most of life is common sense...just how I feel.  If I were in school and my grades were suffering, I wouldn't expect someone else to "fix" that or even to comment upon it.  If it was a case of not having the time because of "serving" him (or whatever) then I'd be the one to bring it up.  I surely wouldn't wait for my dominant to notice that I'm failing stuff and then set up a schedule or something like that.  That would never work for me.  But I'm more of a "take the bull by the horns" type of person.  I don't see that as a cold hard bitch...I see that as realistic.  I'm going to school presumably to learn something so that I can earn a living...if I don't learn it, I'm not going to make much of a living...self preservation.  Now, one could arguably say that my dominant will provide me with a living and I guess that could happen, but what if it doesn't?  No, I need to be responsible.

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RE: Is there a downside to submission? - 8/20/2008 6:25:46 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

BUT, in the process of trying to figure out my role as a submissive and doing what I could to please Him and serve Him, I seem to have lost the rest of me.  To me, it seems that I've changed from a strong, independent, successful female to a whiny, wimpy, codependent, pathetic thing who has made a habit of


There isn't enough information here to go on.

Some successful people succeed becasue they are attemtping to outrun their internal deamons.  Some successful people succeed because that drive comes from a good place. 

So, it COULD be that by looking into yourself in the course of opening up your submissive side that you have opened yourself up to seeing the personal issues that drove you to do whatever it took to succeed and that you are growing as a person and striving to get to a better place.  I am doing a shitty job of explaining this but MY head isn't screwed on right at the moment either.

OR, it could be that your partner has a hole in them that you will never be able to fill.  So no matter what you do it will never be enough.  I have a tinge of that crap myself.

Or it could be something completely different and without an example we haven't got much to go on. 

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RE: Is there a downside to submission? - 8/20/2008 6:27:23 AM   
sirsholly


Posts: 42360
Joined: 9/7/2007
From: Quietville
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

A good match should build you up-only a poor one will tear you down.


OP...here is your answer...short, sweet and to the point.


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RE: Is there a downside to submission? - 8/20/2008 6:42:54 AM   
heartfeltsub


Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

BUT, in the process of trying to figure out my role as a submissive and doing what I could to please Him and serve Him, I seem to have lost the rest of me.  To me, it seems that I've changed from a strong, independent, successful female to a whiny, wimpy, codependent, pathetic thing who has made a habit of


There isn't enough information here to go on.

Some successful people succeed becasue they are attemtping to outrun their internal deamons.  Some successful people succeed because that drive comes from a good place. 

So, it COULD be that by looking into yourself in the course of opening up your submissive side that you have opened yourself up to seeing the personal issues that drove you to do whatever it took to succeed and that you are growing as a person and striving to get to a better place.  I am doing a shitty job of explaining this but MY head isn't screwed on right at the moment either.

OR, it could be that your partner has a hole in them that you will never be able to fill.  So no matter what you do it will never be enough.  I have a tinge of that crap myself.

Or it could be something completely different and without an example we haven't got much to go on. 


i would have to agree wholeheartedly with Michael here, there isn't enough information to even begin to answer your question. It could be any of the things that he has listed as the possible reason for feeling like a failure. As this is probably a very personal issue, i'm sure there are many, myself included who would be willing to give you some answers offline (i.e. collarme mail) if that would be helpful.

heartfelt

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RE: Is there a downside to submission? - 8/20/2008 12:34:06 PM   
robertolapiedra


Posts: 520
Joined: 5/3/2007
Status: offline 		Hello westernbutterfly. Now this is just my opinion. It makes no sense to me that a ''strong, independent, successful'' person should become ''weak, dependant, unsuccessful'' because you decided to fully embrace your submissive side.

I have never seen a ''weak, dependant, unsuccessful'' person become ''strong, independent, successful'' because one decided to fully embrace one's dominant side in ''private'' life.

Do you really think your lifestyle is responsible for your lack of success in life? If that is the case, just take a break for a few months and see if there is a ''real'' connection. Or would you consider this a failure also?

Normally, submission does not affect who you are, only what you do in private life. Normally, submission is ''success'' in acceptance and fulfilment of the inner self, it is self ''realization''. It should add to the sense of well being, not subtract from it.

Dominants and submissives alike have bad phases of life, same as vanillas. Don't let it be a cop out for you not working yourself out of a bad phase. It will make everything worse. Try to see things as objectively as you can and do your best at all times. You will work this out and be successful again. RL

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RE: Is there a downside to submission? - 8/20/2008 12:45:41 PM   
batshalom


Posts: 1990
Joined: 9/17/2007
Status: offline 		Remember that you are the guardian and executioner of your own choices. You see the problem, now fix it.

I am a classic over-achiever and I am also a submissive. Submission, to me, does not at all equal weakness - it is only because of my strength and stubborn streak that I can submit. Submitting is  need to me. Achieving is a need to me. So ... do what you want about your situation, but don't blame it on being a sub.

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RE: Is there a downside to submission? - 8/20/2008 1:18:22 PM   
oceanwynds


Posts: 1044
Joined: 8/24/2006
Status: offline 		Hello westernbutterfly
i hope my post can help you somewhat. i too am new to being in a D/s relationship, plus i started at the age of 55. It is now 2 years going and my concept of what a submissive is has changed dramatically. i have always been a very strong woman, which compliments my submissiveness. i cannot see where weakness can be used well as a submissive. This has been one of the most challenging path i have taken. i too have only had one relationship in Ds. Was married for 29 years until death did us part. We were what would be consider 'vanilla'. In my D/s relationship, we do not live together, nor am i collared. It works for us. We see each other as often as our schedules permit. The past 2 years i learned to live alone after 29 yrs of marriage, be a submissive to Sir, and excel in achieving goals set forth by Sir. i also achieved in my own goals. Learning about my submissive nature has been a blessing not a hinderance. It is hard work, no doubt about it. Misconceptions in this feminist mind even made it harder in the beginning.  i am still learning about Ds, BDSM and what it means to me. i was fortunate to meet a wonderful Dom. We did not meet under this lifestyle, but in another common interest chat room. Have there been times i wanted to throw my hands up and walk away? Oh yes!! i know me well enough though that usually is a signal for me that i am running away from myself.
i don't really know your situation. Only thing i know is you were together 2 yrs and we both like the same fairy:). The only advice i can give you is to know yourself well. Blaming another to me is just away to escape responsibility.
Blessings
oceanwynds

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RE: Is there a downside to submission? - 8/20/2008 4:05:10 PM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline 		Sometimes it is easy to find yourself getting so caught up in giving the person you love everything they want from you, it is possible to forget who "you" is

and its shitty when you remember and "you" doesn't fit anymore

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RE: Is there a downside to submission? - 8/20/2008 4:52:41 PM   
sistermargaret


Posts: 101
Joined: 8/8/2008
Status: offline 		      i'm new to the D/s side of the Lifestyle too, but i agree, the most important thing is a good match. i did a lot of crying and soul searching when i started this path, and Master slowly guided me to positive acceptance of life and love, where i have flourished like the well nurtured girl i am deep inside. You, my dear, have a serious lack of nurturing. Perhaps what you have is not D/s but co-dependance?
       i also agree that there is not enough information given. Did your Dom also experince hardship and failure? Were You both in a downward tailpsin? That could explain why you are crabby and upset all the time. Financial woes will do that to you. It happens in vanillia, too. It stops eventually and you can both get your heads out of your butts and move onward and upward.
       The fact that you have come for advise is encouraging and shows that you see the problems and you are now seeking to rectify them. i think you need to be with someone who can nurture you back to 'you'. Maybe not a different Dom but someone.
sm

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RE: Is there a downside to submission? - 8/21/2008 6:49:29 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		OP:

It is my thinking (unsupported and unsullied by any sort of fact), that this is pretty common for a new sub.  It's easy to want to throw yourself into submission.  The problem is that there is ... you know... learning to do just as there is with any new role that one seeks to undertake.  In your case, you haven't really given us a lot of information, but it sounds to me like you submitted too fast.  If you've lost all of yourself, I can only assume that you're in something that is roughly a 24/7 master/slave type relationship (limited or no boundaries).  Two thoughts...

a)  You always need to retain a core
Think of it this way.  If you give away ALL of yourself, then there is nothing left anymore.  Somewhere, no matter how submissive you are being, you must find a core of yourself that is stable and strong.  For my wife, I am conceptualizing it this way.  As I help her to become more and more my slave and so train her to focus more and more on me, I am at the same time working to make the core parts of herself ever stronger so that her footing remains stable.

b)  Submission must equate to responsibility.
LA likes the phrase authority transfer (and so do I).  Call me old-school, but with authority goes responsibility.  So the bottom line here is that if you transferred enough authority over yourself for the symptoms you described, then I would say the dom in question did not handle the responsibility well.  That might be for lots of reasons including he never wanted that much responsibility.  I hold my wife as my slave, not sub (meaning few boundaries) and so I would count myself responsible for... well... her whole life... including the types of symptoms you described.  Were that my wife, I would be mortified at my poor performance as her Master. 

In short, a submissive opens herself up to a dominant to be molded and shaped.  Yes, as happened to you, the dominant can do so poorly and end up causing harm.  This is why it's a particularly good reason to make your initial choices wisely then submit slowly... even if the end intention is to go M/s rather than D/s, I personally think it is wise to start with some very limited boundaries then work out from there slowly.

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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