Is religion important in politics ?

Is religion important in politics ? (Full Version)

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Aneirin -> Is religion important in politics ? (8/26/2008 6:47:12 AM)
Something I have noticed with the stuff that is happening over the pond in the US, is there appears to be a lot of focus on religion with those running for the big seat. Now as I understand religion and spirituality, it is a personal thing, what we each believe is different, that is if we have our own mind and can think for ourselves. Given all those that are running for the White House, I notice much being made about the candidates beliefs, almost as if one was say one religion everyone believes the same, and I get the impression that if everyone believes they think the same then one person might be better than another as a potential leader. I find it scary that personal belief is brought into politics and I very much believe, it should be kept firmly out, as a leader saying they made their decision based upon what ever deity told them to me is so dodgy. It as if when reference is made to the higher power, all questioning stops and the thought seems to be,' ah well, because so and so relayed what ever information to a person via their belief or other, they must be right, even if it defies all logic '. As was the case when our last Prime Minister, Tony Blair said the war in Iraq was the right thing to do because of God. That was the screaming end for me, any remaining credibility that might have been lodged in the corners of my mind where hosed out, purged from my system, he had lost the plot completely. Fine, he was he says a devout believer, that is ok, but his personal beliefs should be just that, personal. If his decisions were influenced by his higher power, fine, but what he did wrong in my view was publicly spout that what he did was right because of his religion. Let's get a fix on this, and I have no wish to upset people, but it needs to be said, Religion, belief, spirituality, faith, whatever it might be called in something that cannot be proven to exist or not is not a basis to lead a country, especially a country in a world influential position and a force to back up it's influence. If it came down to it all and a country's leader had the finger on the button to release nuclear hell, would a decision based upon a personal belief be a good reason to press ? Another angle, in the past it used to be protestant and catholic who disliked each other, two branches of the same Abrahmic religion, nothing from the middle ages has changed, we now have two branches of the same Abrahamic religion disagreeing, but now with bigger toys to play with, toys that will not only affect the followers of Abraham, but the rest of the world, the people who can be described as not followers of Abrahamic belief, the pagans who encompass Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist and others,people who make up forty five percent of the world religions, people who incidently don't seem to be at major conflict with each other. Maybe it is none of my business who gets elected to the White House, but then again, maybe it is, but I for one would be impressed with a person who says they have no religion and what they do is based purely on good sense and logic, deferring to a thing or not thing to me is soooo dangerous. Is religion important in politics ?

kittinSol -> RE: Is religion important in politics ? (8/26/2008 6:56:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin Is religion important in politics ? I agree with you: it shouldn't be. But religion is used as a means to obtain power: I don't see this state of affair coming to an end any time soon. Incidentally, those ultra religious people in the US who are into politics tend to be Christians: as you know, Christianity's intrinsic message is to 'go out and preach the good word'. These people feel somehow that they have been invested with this 'convert the unbeliever' thing, and that it's intolerant of us to argue that they should keep their beliefs to themselves. It's crazy.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Is religion important in politics ? (8/26/2008 6:58:36 AM)
quote: Is religion important in politics ? "Religion" has very little place in politics. "Faith" takes center stage for every politician. The trick is to distinguish between the two. A politician with no moral core, no sense of right vs. wrong--with no "faith"--is a threat to his constituents; such a politician will not be corrupted by power or time in office, because he is already corrupted. I will vote for a politician with whose moral values I disagree categorically over a politician who is completely amoral every time.

kdsub -> RE: Is religion important in politics ? (8/26/2008 7:13:07 AM)
celticlord you surprise me... Aneirin saying religion should not be in politics is not facing reality....at least in America. An atheist will not be elected. Butch

Raechard -> RE: Is religion important in politics ? (8/26/2008 7:14:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin Let's get a fix on this, and I have no wish to upset people, but it needs to be said, Religion, belief, spirituality, faith, whatever it might be called in something that cannot be proven to exist or not is not a basis to lead a country, especially a country in a world influential position and a force to back up it's influence. If it came down to it all and a country's leader had the finger on the button to release nuclear hell, would a decision based upon a personal belief be a good reason to press ? The people he leads are religious the choices they face in life they look to a higher power for guidance. You've seen the debates here regarding abortion and yet you ask this question? When you lead a country you do so on the basis you share the same views as the people of that country. If the people are religious you have to lead on that basis, the difficult balance is always maintaining the rights of the minority. None of this above has anything to do with world leadership they are domestic concerns. People can press that button you speak of for all kinds of different reasons after being given evidence but in the end it's going to be one person assessing that evidence they have been provided and making a decision based on personal belief. Evidence is never black and white you can always find plausible explanations for a man found with a gun standing over a dead body. (edit: readability)

DomKen -> RE: Is religion important in politics ? (8/26/2008 7:25:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: Is religion important in politics ? "Religion" has very little place in politics. "Faith" takes center stage for every politician. The trick is to distinguish between the two. A politician with no moral core, no sense of right vs. wrong--with no "faith"--is a threat to his constituents; such a politician will not be corrupted by power or time in office, because he is already corrupted. I will vote for a politician with whose moral values I disagree categorically over a politician who is completely amoral every time. I have no faith but do have a "moral core" and do have a sense of right vs. wrong. To imply that only faith can give someone morals is simply incorrect.

Aneirin -> RE: Is religion important in politics ? (8/26/2008 7:36:37 AM)
The other thing of course is where someone in a position of leadership openly says their higher power talked to them to show them the way. It is worth bearing in mind that a normal person in normal life who admits to a voice coming from nowhere, it is in their head etc is usually declared suffering a mental illness and there removed from any position of responsibility they have. Tell me, where is this different from a nation's leader, is it a nation's leader is allowed to 'hear voices' and a normal person is not ? Maybe even it is all those people who are mashed out on medication and kept away from the apparent ' danger' they might cause to others because they admitted to hearing voices are in fact correct, their voices was their higher power communicating with them. Maybe even mental illness is really spiritual emergence, but in this society of logic and common sense, hearing voices is a sign of illness. We talk religion and spirituality when it is applied to a potential leader as a good thing, but to a common man it is bad and the person needs to be made well.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Is religion important in politics ? (8/26/2008 7:38:01 AM)
quote: I have no faith but do have a "moral core" and do have a sense of right vs. wrong. To imply that only faith can give someone morals is simply incorrect. My rebuttal is that "faith" and a "moral core" are synonymous, in connotation if not denotation. I use the word "faith" to distinguish from "religion"--"faith" to me is personal belief, that element of spirituality which is not found in the pages of the Bible, or the Koran, or the Torah, or the Sutras. "Religion" is that element which is found in those pages. One can have "religion" and no "faith", or "faith" but no "religion". I am not troubled by a politician with no religion. I am troubled by a politician with no faith--or, borrowing your phrasing, no moral core.

MissSCD -> RE: Is religion important in politics ? (8/26/2008 7:41:27 AM)
*One nation, under God? Yes, it is a big one.* The thing that gripes my nerves is the pastors who use fear to gain favor for the republican party. I have had this philosphy shoved down my throat all my life. It is in both the black and white churches. It needs to stop. *Democrats believe in God as well.* *Regards, MissSCD*

Raechard -> RE: Is religion important in politics ? (8/26/2008 7:46:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin The other thing of course is where someone in a position of leadership openly says their higher power talked to them to show them the way. It is worth bearing in mind that a normal person in normal life who admits to a voice coming from nowhere, it is in their head etc is usually declared suffering a mental illness and there removed from any position of responsibility they have. Tell me, where is this different from a nation's leader, is it a nation's leader is allowed to 'hear voices' and a normal person is not ? Maybe even it is all those people who are mashed out on medication and kept away from the apparent ' danger' they might cause to others because they admitted to hearing voices are in fact correct, their voices was their higher power communicating with them. Maybe even mental illness is really spiritual emergence, but in this society of logic and common sense, hearing voices is a sign of illness. We talk religion and spirituality when it is applied to a potential leader as a good thing, but to a common man it is bad and the person needs to be made well. I generally assume that when a politician speaks this way they are being metaphorical and don't actually hear voices but suddenly they come to realise something themselves and attribute it to a higher power. Maybe they do this because they are modest and can't believe they'd come to a realisation themselves without help from above. This is in direct contrast with a person that does hear voices, who you can put under an MRI scanner and see exactly how their brain is malfunctioning. (edit: which = with)

celticlord2112 -> RE: Is religion important in politics ? (8/26/2008 7:47:53 AM)
quote: The other thing of course is where someone in a position of leadership openly says their higher power talked to them to show them the way. It is worth bearing in mind that a normal person in normal life who admits to a voice coming from nowhere, it is in their head etc is usually declared suffering a mental illness and there removed from any position of responsibility they have. Tell me, where is this different from a nation's leader, is it a nation's leader is allowed to 'hear voices' and a normal person is not ? It is also worth bearing in mind that very few people, leaders and "normal people" alike, hear a higher power "talking" vis-a-vis auditory hallucination. To equate "listening to God" with "hearing voices" is disingenuous.

popeye1250 -> RE: Is religion important in politics ? (8/26/2008 7:48:56 AM)
Not to me. What a candidate believes or doesn't believe spiritually is their business not mine. I really wish they'd keep it to themselves. I'd rather hear how they plan on getting us out of Nafta, Gatt, trade with China, "foreign aid" programs, Nato and the "U.N." I DO want to know how they plan on securing our border with Mexico, enforcing our immigration laws, replacing or repairing thousands of roads and bridges that are falling down, getting our Troops out of Iraq, Japan, Germany and S. Korea, and how they'll get the national debt down to managable levels. I couldn't care less which church they go to or how they say their prayers.

Aneirin -> RE: Is religion important in politics ? (8/26/2008 7:55:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Raechard I generally assume that when a politician speaks this way they are being metaphorical and don't actually hear voices but suddenly they come to realise something themselves and attribute it to a higher power. Maybe they do this because they are modest and can't believe they'd come to a realisation themselves without help from above. This is in direct contrast which a person that does hear voices, who you can put under an MRI scanner and see exactly how their brain is malfunctioning. Is it not a scary thing though even though you think they are being metaphorical ? When was the last time you came across a modest politician ? Politics equals power and to gain power through politics you have to be popular and to be popular you have to direct light upon yourself so others will notice and increase the popularity and thus gain power. I have been MRI scanned following an accident, where I heard unexplainable voices, nothing was found to be malfunctioning with my brain, I was normal as far as normal is.

kdsub -> RE: Is religion important in politics ? (8/26/2008 7:56:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissSCD *One nation, under God? Yes, it is a big one.* The thing that gripes my nerves is the pastors who use fear to gain favor for the republican party. I have had this philosphy shoved down my throat all my life. It is in both the black and white churches. It needs to stop. *Democrats believe in God as well.* *Regards, MissSCD* MissSCD this coalition between republicans and fundamental Christians is a recent development. For years and years religions were more aligned with the liberal democrats than republicans. The very clever manipulation of fundamentalists by Rose over gay marriage and abortion has temporarily shifted their allegiance. When they realize the Republican Party used them and could care less about either stand they will fracture as a voting group. Butch

Raechard -> RE: Is religion important in politics ? (8/26/2008 8:11:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin Is it not a scary thing though even though you think they are being metaphorical ? Not really, we all use metaphors to demonstrate to others what we are thinking and feeling. quote: When was the last time you came across a modest politician ? Politics equals power and to gain power through politics you have to be popular and to be popular you have to direct light upon yourself so others will notice and increase the popularity and thus gain power. Maybe then the politician was pandering to the religious vote to show he was one of them and that their god was on his side? quote: I have been MRI scanned following an accident, where I heard unexplainable voices, nothing was found to be malfunctioning with my brain, I was normal as far as normal is. http://www.schizophrenia.com/research/slide10.htm In those images you'll notice the enlarged dark area I read somewhere this part was responsible for forming ideas into language. I can only assume you are not suffering from schizophrenia. You could also argue that maybe god made these people’s brains this way to channel ideas down from a higher existence. This is quite possible but you'd have to ask yourself what kinds of things were these people being told to do and then ask yourself if any god telling someone to do that is worthy of being worshiped.

DarkSteven -> RE: Is religion important in politics ? (8/26/2008 8:15:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol [Incidentally, those ultra religious people in the US who are into politics tend to be Christians: Yeah, we Jews get REALLY nervous when the government starts pontificating about how they follow God's word devoutly. It worked out REALLY badly in Germany.

kdsub -> RE: Is religion important in politics ? (8/26/2008 8:21:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol [Incidentally, those ultra religious people in the US who are into politics tend to be Christians: Yeah, we Jews get REALLY nervous when the government starts pontificating about how they follow God's word devoutly. It worked out REALLY badly in Germany. Yes and Jews and their beliefs are working so much better in the Middle East. Butch

celticlord2112 -> RE: Is religion important in politics ? (8/26/2008 8:38:29 AM)
quote: When they realize the Republican Party used them and could care less about either stand they will fracture as a voting group. Based on the history of the Moral Majority and other religious right groups, I would contend they were the ones who used the Republican Party, in a backlash against the liberal excesses of the 1960s and 1970s.

meatcleaver -> RE: Is religion important in politics ? (8/26/2008 8:41:27 AM)
Politicians that have faith scare the hell out of me because they have given up on rational thought. As Blair once said about the Iraq war, I believe I am right! There is no rational argument to that and that is the problem with politicians that have faith, they believe they have a moral compass without the need to be rational.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Is religion important in politics ? (8/26/2008 8:46:17 AM)
quote: As Blair once said about the Iraq war, I believe I am right! There is no rational argument to that and that is the problem with politicians that have faith, they believe they have a moral compass without the need to be rational. Of course, the flip side is that opposing the war amounts to "I believe you are wrong." Or is it phrased "I know you are wrong" to make the argument supremely ... "rational"?

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