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Curiousity about nuanced semantics. - 8/26/2008 9:27:31 AM   
Thadius


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Greetings all,

Curiousity has gotten the better of me, as it often does.  I am hoping to put this topic forward without getting into the typical rhetorical attacks, and focus mainly on the perception of certain nuanced semantics.

The incident that brought this to mind was watching the replay of Larry King, as he posed a question to the panelists.  He asked "Do any of the panelists think there were some white folks that wouldn't vote for Obama simply because he was black?", to which all of the panelists answered "Yes".  Then one of the panelists (I can't remember his name) reversed the question and posed it in 2 ways.  "Were there any blacks that were voting for Obama simply because he was black, and were there any women out there that voted for Hillary simply because she was a woman?"

Regardless of the answers to those questions, another question popped into my mind.  What is the difference between voting against somebody because of race and gender, or voting for somebody because of race or gender?  The first answer that came to mind was that one sounds more positive than the other, yet they are doing exactly the same thing.  Simply they are casting a judgement about which way they are going to vote based on superficial rationalizations.  Think about that for a second, it is the same thing a clansman saying "I am voting for X because he is white" and "I am voting for X because Y is black"; both are the exact same position.  It is a way to present one side or the other as racist or sexist, while allowing the other side the presented position of being enlightened or uplifted.

Am I reading to much into these nuanced differences of how the issue is presented?  Should we not, have already moved passed this sort of thinking and moreso the way in which this thinking is presented? 

I am interested in your thoughts about this issue, and perhaps any suggestions on how to institute some sort of change.

I wish you well,
Thadius

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RE: Curiousity about nuanced semantics. - 8/26/2008 10:17:35 AM   
sunshinemiss


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Good morning Master Thadius,
I see your question and I think they are nuanced but the tiny differences are irrelevant in mmy mind.  Both ways of voting as you have put forth are about personal assumptions.  If this person is a woman, she will understand what a woman thinks.  For example, every woman, whether she believes in it or not, has had the idea of abortion come to her mind in a personal way, even if it is to say "OH NO"... but she's had it (imo).   In a way a man will not have had that thought.  Yes, of course men think of it, but it is different for a woman... her body, the feeling of the flutter, the nausea, the expectation of shifts in her body, the hormones.  I presume that a woman candidate will have considered abortion in a way that a man hasn't.  And she will have come to conclusions about that because of her gender (whatever conclusion that is).

Same holds for a person of a certain race or ethnicity.  We are automatically connected.  On the East Coast (Boston, Philadelphia, New York) people are much more aware of their heritage on the whole than people in other parts of the country that I have visited.  So the same goes for Irish, Italians, Jews, etc. in those parts of the country.  When we are born into a group and raised in it, we feel that affinity in much the same way that people of particular races feel it.  Typically it is a group that has been downtrodden at some point, discriminated against. 

We think that the person from our group will understand what it is to be one of us.  And therefore we join with them, it is like we ourselves or our loved one has become the one in power.  It is something of an egocentric method of voting.  But isn't that what voting is?  Someone who is there to represent me.

I have written this with a wide brush and know of course there are many people who would show individual examples, and I do not discount them.  This is more about norms.  It is the way of human beahavior.  It is the rare person who can see beyond emotions (for that is often why we vote the way we do) to the intellectual realm... to apply logic.  Even when we do this to some degree, emotions always play a part.  There is something instinctual about it. 

As for making change.  I read a psych study once that said the only way people would come together is if there is a common enemy.  Us versus them is always a part of differentiating.  We don't know who we ARE if we don't know who we AREN'T.  The study concluded with something along the lines of unless we are contacted by entities from outer space, there will always be division and always be emotional feuding.  *and no, I don't have that study but I do remember reading it about 15 years ago in my social psych class.  It made an impression on me.

Well wishes,
sunshine



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RE: Curiousity about nuanced semantics. - 8/26/2008 10:38:16 AM   
DomKen


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Voting against someone based on race or gender is definitely bigoted. Voting for someone because of race or gender isn't quite the same thing. It has a lot to do with feelings of community that are not that different from the reasons we see major presidential candidates always carrying their home state. There is a perception that the candidate will deliver for that state or that race or that gender or at the very least that the candidate will be sympathetic to that state or group's concerns.

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RE: Curiousity about nuanced semantics. - 8/26/2008 10:39:40 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
Am I reading to much into these nuanced differences of how the issue is presented? Should we not, have already moved passed this sort of thinking and moreso the way in which this thinking is presented?

I don't think you're reading too much in at all. Quite the contrary, I think you've nailed it.

Voting for someone because he/she is black or white (or hispanic, or asian, or....) is racist by definition.
Voting against someone because he/she is black or white (or hispanic, or asian, or....) is racist by definition.

Voting for someone because he is man or she is a woman is sexist by definition.
Voting against someone because he is man or she is a woman is sexist by definition.



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RE: Curiousity about nuanced semantics. - 8/26/2008 10:42:50 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Voting against someone based on race or gender is definitely bigoted. Voting for someone because of race or gender isn't quite the same thing.

Not only are they the same thing, they are the same act.

You cannot vote for a candidate without voting against his (or her) opponent.

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RE: Curiousity about nuanced semantics. - 8/26/2008 11:20:48 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Voting against someone based on race or gender is definitely bigoted. Voting for someone because of race or gender isn't quite the same thing.

Not only are they the same thing, they are the same act.

You cannot vote for a candidate without voting against his (or her) opponent.


i see this how Ken does. The reason for voting for candidate A has no bearing on not voting for candidate B. I agree there is a fine line between the two schools of thought though.

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RE: Curiousity about nuanced semantics. - 8/26/2008 11:25:25 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

i see this how Ken does. The reason for voting for candidate A has no bearing on not voting for candidate B. I agree there is a fine line between the two schools of thought though.



This position is very nuanced, politesub: sure you don't want to try something a little more slanted  ?

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RE: Curiousity about nuanced semantics. - 8/26/2008 11:30:52 AM   
Vendaval


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Greetings all,

Curiousity has gotten the better of me, as it often does.  I am hoping to put this topic forward without getting into the typical rhetorical attacks, and focus mainly on the perception of certain nuanced semantics.

You don't say...


The incident that brought this to mind was watching the replay of Larry King, as he posed a question to the panelists.  He asked "Do any of the panelists think there were some white folks that wouldn't vote for Obama simply because he was black?", to which all of the panelists answered "Yes".  Then one of the panelists (I can't remember his name) reversed the question and posed it in 2 ways.  "Were there any blacks that were voting for Obama simply because he was black, and were there any women out there that voted for Hillary simply because she was a woman?"

Yes, some people will vote for a person because they feel a sense of camaraderie and shared identity.  Does the candidate have a similar social and economic background, come from a particular region, have shared values and interests with the voter?

Regardless of the answers to those questions, another question popped into my mind.  What is the difference between voting against somebody because of race and gender, or voting for somebody because of race or gender?  The first answer that came to mind was that one sounds more positive than the other, yet they are doing exactly the same thing.  Simply they are casting a judgement about which way they are going to vote based on superficial rationalizations.  Think about that for a second, it is the same thing a clansman saying "I am voting for X because he is white" and "I am voting for X because Y is black"; both are the exact same position.  It is a way to present one side or the other as racist or sexist, while allowing the other side the presented position of being enlightened or uplifted.

The idea of the stranger = enemy perhaps?

Am I reading to much into these nuanced differences of how the issue is presented?  Should we not, have already moved passed this sort of thinking and moreso the way in which this thinking is presented? 

The ideal of moving past this type of rationale and the stubborn persistence of irrational human nature are at odds in this competition.  People will vote for whomever they think best represents their own values and interests.
Survival of the individual being the modus operandi.


I am interested in your thoughts about this issue, and perhaps any suggestions on how to institute some sort of change.

I wish you well,
Thadius

Cantar claro, rational discourse and voting on the problems of society and the serious problem of the present and future?   Ser posible. 






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RE: Curiousity about nuanced semantics. - 8/26/2008 11:34:14 AM   
kdsub


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I'm not sure the right questions were asked. I think if anyone votes against someone because of the skin color then it is prejudice. I think blacks will vote for Obama not because of his skin color but because he may have shared experiences as a black man in America. Not racist or prejudiced even though it may be look that way to some.

A better question because it is by far the most common... as a white person are you voting for Obama out of guilt..or for his policies?

Butch

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RE: Curiousity about nuanced semantics. - 8/26/2008 11:38:10 AM   
sunshinemiss


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

1.  Voting against someone based on race or gender is definitely bigoted. Voting for someone because of race or gender isn't quite the same thing.

2.  It has a lot to do with feelings of community that are not that different from the reasons we see major presidential candidates always carrying their home state.

3.  There is a perception that the candidate will deliver for that state or that race or that gender or at the very least that the candidate will be sympathetic to that state or group's concerns.


Hold on there buddy!

1.  big·ot·ed  –adjective
utterly intolerant of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.  

That is just way over the line.  Not voting for someone because of their race or their gender is not NECESSARILY about being "UTTERLY INTOLERANT of any creed believe or opinion that DIFFERS from one's own.".   It very well could be that I think that a person who is soooooooooooo different from me can't actually see things from my point of view.  That is not bigoted, that is often realistic.  Heck there are books and books written about the way people see the world and how it is different.  A farmer does not see time and weather the same way a stock broker does.  Neither does a man see things the same way a woman does.  Neither does a person of color (who knows they are "of color") see things the way a white person (who often is not acutely aware of their race).  Not voting for someone because of race, gender, etc.  can be more about lack of connection.

2.  And this is an excellent point of "joining".   It is often about believing that someone will UNDERSTAND my opinion.  There is nothing bigoted about that.  It is about joining rather than separating.

3.  People will see this as "He's OUR guy".... there is a certain communal appreciation, communal understanding.  It makes people feel like THEY and THEIR needs/ideals will be served.  And that, after all, is the purpose of representation.  I believe there was a whole big fat war fought because of taxation without representation (amongst other reasons).

There is nothing wrong with wanting to be attached to a candidate for whatever reason.  I believe I gave a well thought out example of this when writing about abortion up there --^   When you use a word like "bigoted" to make a point, you are really overreacting imo. 

peace and passion,
sunshine

Edited to fix the copy of the definition.

< Message edited by sunshinemiss -- 8/26/2008 11:40:53 AM >


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RE: Curiousity about nuanced semantics. - 8/26/2008 11:41:33 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

i see this how Ken does. The reason for voting for candidate A has no bearing on not voting for candidate B. I agree there is a fine line between the two schools of thought though.



This position is very nuanced, politesub: sure you don't want to try something a little more slanted  ?


I used to see it as CL stated it Kittin. Now though i think differently, voting for someone who has something in common with you, isnt, in my opinion, racist.

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RE: Curiousity about nuanced semantics. - 8/26/2008 11:53:31 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
i see this how Ken does. The reason for voting for candidate A has no bearing on not voting for candidate B. I agree there is a fine line between the two schools of thought though.

If you vote for Candidate A, you are not voting for Candidate B. Except maybe in Chicago, each of us gets one vote and it is an exclusive vote--it can be used for one and only one candidate per election.

Therefore, any reason to vote for a candidate must be a reason to vote against another candidate, and vice-versa.


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RE: Curiousity about nuanced semantics. - 8/26/2008 11:55:06 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
I used to see it as CL stated it Kittin. Now though i think differently, voting for someone who has something in common with you, isnt, in my opinion, racist.

It is if the "something" in common is race, and that "something" is the reason you vote for that person.

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RE: Curiousity about nuanced semantics. - 8/26/2008 11:57:56 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

1.  Voting against someone based on race or gender is definitely bigoted. Voting for someone because of race or gender isn't quite the same thing.

2.  It has a lot to do with feelings of community that are not that different from the reasons we see major presidential candidates always carrying their home state.

3.  There is a perception that the candidate will deliver for that state or that race or that gender or at the very least that the candidate will be sympathetic to that state or group's concerns.


Hold on there buddy!

1.  big·ot·ed  –adjective
utterly intolerant of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.  

That is just way over the line.  Not voting for someone because of their race or their gender is not NECESSARILY about being "UTTERLY INTOLERANT of any creed believe or opinion that DIFFERS from one's own.".   It very well could be that I think that a person who is soooooooooooo different from me can't actually see things from my point of view.  That is not bigoted, that is often realistic.  Heck there are books and books written about the way people see the world and how it is different.  A farmer does not see time and weather the same way a stock broker does.  Neither does a man see things the same way a woman does.  Neither does a person of color (who knows they are "of color") see things the way a white person (who often is not acutely aware of their race).  Not voting for someone because of race, gender, etc.  can be more about lack of connection.

And this just plain doesn't make sense. Voting against a candidate because of race or gender indicates a willingness to overlook any number of other factors that might make that candidate a good choice. It also falls very close to being "I won't vote for a ______ person ever." Which is a bigoted position.

Voting against someone is always a negative position. I don't have a problem with anyone choosing to vote for John McCain but if someone tells me they won't vote for Barack Obama because he isn't white then that is a whole different story.

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RE: Curiousity about nuanced semantics. - 8/26/2008 11:58:28 AM   
Raechard


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Bigot: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices.

i.e. Thinking every black man doesn't see things the same way as a white man and vice versa. I think the farmer/city worker analogy is slightly invalid since no one has their occupation printed on their forehead.


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RE: Curiousity about nuanced semantics. - 8/26/2008 12:02:59 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Voting against someone based on race or gender is definitely bigoted. Voting for someone because of race or gender isn't quite the same thing.

Not only are they the same thing, they are the same act.

You cannot vote for a candidate without voting against his (or her) opponent.

No. There is a significant difference. Consider a campaign with more than two viable candidates. Choosing to vote for one candidate due to that candidate being the same race or gender or profession etc. is a reasonable self interested way to make the decision. Simply excluding a candidate from consideration due to being outside of some set that you feel yourself to be a member of is a decision of a very different caliber.

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RE: Curiousity about nuanced semantics. - 8/26/2008 12:14:32 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
No. There is a significant difference. Consider a campaign with more than two viable candidates.

Consider as many viable candidates as you like. You vote for one candidate. You are therefore "not voting" for all other candidates. A vote is exclusive by its very nature.

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RE: Curiousity about nuanced semantics. - 8/26/2008 12:16:40 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Voting against someone is always a negative position. I don't have a problem with anyone choosing to vote for John McCain but if someone tells me they won't vote for Barack Obama because he isn't white then that is a whole different story.

So if someone says "I'm voting for John McCain because he's the white candidate in this race," you're ok with that?

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RE: Curiousity about nuanced semantics. - 8/26/2008 12:18:40 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Voting against someone is always a negative position. I don't have a problem with anyone choosing to vote for John McCain but if someone tells me they won't vote for Barack Obama because he isn't white then that is a whole different story.

So if someone says "I'm voting for John McCain because he's the white candidate in this race," you're ok with that?

Way to play semantics. Now why not try and engage in serious discussion as the OP requested?

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RE: Curiousity about nuanced semantics. - 8/26/2008 12:27:09 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Voting against someone is always a negative position. I don't have a problem with anyone choosing to vote for John McCain but if someone tells me they won't vote for Barack Obama because he isn't white then that is a whole different story.

So if someone says "I'm voting for John McCain because he's the white candidate in this race," you're ok with that?

Way to play semantics. Now why not try and engage in serious discussion as the OP requested?

It IS a serious question. To put it another way....what is the difference between voting for John McCain because he is white and not voting for Barak Obama because he is not white? Or voting for Barak Obama because he is black and not voting for John McCain because he is not black?

The way you have stated your position, there should be a difference. I am asking you to define that difference, because I do not see the difference.

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