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RE: Hillary's speech:opinion's - 8/27/2008 11:29:08 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Maybe you should try reading it. It contains lots of very specific proposals.
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/ 

I did read it.  If that's what Obama calls a plan then he's proven his inadequacy.  Long on words, short on details.

Time to put the lie to some more of your BS. Which proposal do you claim is short on details? Ask specific questions. I'll answer them with direct quotes from the website and contrast them with McCains complete lack of specifics on the same subjects.

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Hillary's speech:opinion's - 8/27/2008 11:35:52 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Maybe you should try reading it. It contains lots of very specific proposals.
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/ 

I did read it.  If that's what Obama calls a plan then he's proven his inadequacy.  Long on words, short on details.

Time to put the lie to some more of your BS. Which proposal do you claim is short on details? Ask specific questions. I'll answer them with direct quotes from the website and contrast them with McCains complete lack of specifics on the same subjects.


Only one question - Who is going to pay for it?

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Hillary's speech:opinion's - 8/27/2008 11:46:56 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Merc the answer to that is obvious...The American taxpayer,now I realise this might be odious to some ...but others will find that preferable to the Republican plan which simply passes on the debt to our children and grandchildren.So tell me Merc which way would you raather do it...pay the bill now or run wars on our childrens dime?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Hillary's speech:opinion's - 8/27/2008 11:47:01 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		All I know about Obama is that he wants to "double foreign aid" and get our Troops involved in Darfur and other African countries where they'll be bogged down for decades.
Where does he stand on getting us o-u-t of all these one-way trade deals like Nafta, Gatt and China?
Where does he stand on getting that border with Mexico closed and strictly enforcing our immigration laws?
Where does he stand on ending this "anchor baby nonsense?
There's just too much that we don't know.
I've watched him speak before and he definately has a talent for being able to talk for 45 minutes without actually saying anything.
At least with Hillary she comes right out and tells you what she thinks and what she wants to do.
The only catch phrase Obama has is "Yes we can," yes we can what?
Still no-one knows what he means when he says; "we need an agressive opportunity agenda!"
What does he mean by that?
This guy is all sizzle and no steak.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Hillary's speech:opinion's - 8/27/2008 11:48:06 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		Do we need to wait in line to ask specific questions, or should we just fire away?

While you are working on an answer for Merc, I figured I would throw this one out at ya.

quote:

Experts estimate that the Obama proposal will save Americans up to 200 million total hours of work and aggravation and up to $2 billion in tax preparer fees.


I am curious about what jobs will the tax preparers that get laid off or fired be doing?  Or are companies like H&R Block and Hewlett supposed to keep those folks employed with such a loss in demand? 

Thanks in advance.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Hillary's speech:opinion's - 8/27/2008 11:50:13 AM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Merc the answer to that is obvious...The American taxpayer,now I realise this might be odious to some ...but others will find that preferable to the Republican plan which simply passes on the debt to our children and grandchildren.So tell me Merc which way would you raather do it...pay the bill now or run wars on our childrens dime?


Slvemike, fuck the little cocksuckers!
Let's really screw them good!
Let's put the boots to them!
"Ha, Ha, Grampy's driving a new Cadillac that you're paying for you little pinheads!"

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Hillary's speech:opinion's - 8/27/2008 11:52:27 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
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From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Do we need to wait in line to ask specific questions, or should we just fire away?

While you are working on an answer for Merc, I figured I would throw this one out at ya.

quote:

Experts estimate that the Obama proposal will save Americans up to 200 million total hours of work and aggravation and up to $2 billion in tax preparer fees.


I am curious about what jobs will the tax preparers that get laid off or fired be doing?  Or are companies like H&R Block and Hewlett supposed to keep those folks employed with such a loss in demand? 

Thanks in advance.
So simplifying the Tax code is a bad thing because some tax preparers might not be as in demand.Thadius please tell me this is a joke?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Hillary's speech:opinion's - 8/27/2008 11:54:42 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Merc the answer to that is obvious...The American taxpayer,now I realise this might be odious to some ...but others will find that preferable to the Republican plan which simply passes on the debt to our children and grandchildren.So tell me Merc which way would you raather do it...pay the bill now or run wars on our childrens dime?


Slvemike, fuck the little cocksuckers!
Let's really screw them good!
Let's put the boots to them!
"Ha, Ha, Grampy's driving a new Cadillac that you're paying for you little pinheads!"
Popeye do you even have children,could these be other people's children and grandchildren you seem to be so callous about?...Thank god I know you're kidding...aren't you?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Hillary's speech:opinion's - 8/27/2008 11:55:39 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		Oh I have one more, just for starters.

What ramifications will there be from making the National Minimum Wage $9.50?  I can see a need for such on a state by state basis, California, Illinois, and New York come to mind right away.  How would that increase effect the cost of living, jobs, and economies in places like Mississipi, Arkansas or rural states?

Thanks again,
Thadius

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Hillary's speech:opinion's - 8/27/2008 11:59:56 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Do we need to wait in line to ask specific questions, or should we just fire away?

While you are working on an answer for Merc, I figured I would throw this one out at ya.

quote:

Experts estimate that the Obama proposal will save Americans up to 200 million total hours of work and aggravation and up to $2 billion in tax preparer fees.


I am curious about what jobs will the tax preparers that get laid off or fired be doing?  Or are companies like H&R Block and Hewlett supposed to keep those folks employed with such a loss in demand? 

Thanks in advance.
So simplifying the Tax code is a bad thing because some tax preparers might not be as in demand.Thadius please tell me this is a joke?


Mike,

I am all for simplifying the tax code.  However, what are the specifics of doing so?  Too, has he thought about the jobs that will be lost in his calculations of how many jobs he is going to create... You know details, specifics, and what is going to be asked of us the American taxpayers, since Ken offered, I figured he had answers to these sort of questions that the rest of us have yet to find.

I can claim that if elected I am going to create 5 million new jobs, reform the tax code, and put a chicken in every pot. I could even make it sound great about how life is going to be rainbows and sunshine, however with no plan to do so, it remains just a pretty speech.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Hillary's speech:opinion's - 8/27/2008 12:02:41 PM   
Steponme73


Posts: 552
Joined: 11/9/2007
Status: offline 		Hillary did not do Obama any favors.  She said what they wanted to say in an off handed way...every compliment she gave Obama was attached to something "She" had started.  Also, she did not change her position on his leadership capabilities.
She will be back...

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Hillary's speech:opinion's - 8/27/2008 12:09:09 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		Hillary was in a tough spot, damned if she did and damned if she didn't.  It is not her job to unify the party, she has gone further than any other losing candidate for the nomination.  It is Obama's job to unify the party and to go after the undecideds and indies.  She gave the only speech she could, and she did a great job with it.  As I said last night, I was left wondering how the hell she is not on the ticket.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to Steponme73)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Hillary's speech:opinion's - 8/27/2008 12:10:10 PM   
SilverMark


Posts: 3457
Joined: 5/9/2007
Status: offline 		I thought Hillary was excellent. To read things into her speech based on omission is like trying to prove a double negative.
I have rarely seen such a close primary ended in as gracious manner.
Had Hillary spoke so strongly early on she would be the Democrats nomineee and those who find fault in her speech
would now be complaining about her being there at all.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Hillary's speech:opinion's - 8/27/2008 12:11:46 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Merc the answer to that is obvious...The American taxpayer,now I realise this might be odious to some ...but others will find that preferable to the Republican plan which simply passes on the debt to our children and grandchildren.So tell me Merc which way would you raather do it...pay the bill now or run wars on our childrens dime?

I don't agree with the options your give as the only answer.

First, why is it that the Senator Obama and the Democratic party believe that the government provides the first best solution to problems? What historical reference can you provide that serves that opinion?

Our grandchildren and even our children don't have to pay for anything. The money is there now - being wasted. Why isn't that the first choice? Why is it that every one of us, who is having to budget differently due to the rising cost of gas, food, and just about every essential commodity required to budget the money we have, but the people hoping to represent us have more money as the first/best option? Sure ideally we should all go to our bosses, or our clients and ask for a raise or acceptance of increased price. But if they answer no - it's amazing how more often than not - we manage; EXCEPT it seems when it comes to government, government workers, and government bureaucracy.

Mike, it should be "odious" for everyone to pay for waste, duplicity, and to continue to fund sloth. "What can you do for me" seems to be the prevailing cry of the electorate. I don't blame the Democrats for feeding that frenzy, but there is no place in the current economy to generate taxes. It will be counter productive outside of one scenario; and that is a desire for socialism. If that's the goal, if cradle to grave nanny care is desired by the majority and the Democrats want to achieve that end - why not just say so? Why instead try to portray anything else?

Back to the basic issue; while there are Trillions of dollars being wasted, whether on a bridge to nowhere or funding a study for coming up with more uses of turkey feathers; let's look at cutting off that first.

Just to be clear; I don't think there is any difference in the last 8 years of spending. If you find a difference between the parties, you'll have to point it out to me. Whether socialistic toward individuals or corporations; the result is the same. It is time to turn off the tap of tax money going to either faucet.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Hillary's speech:opinion's - 8/27/2008 12:15:00 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Merc the answer to that is obvious...The American taxpayer,now I realise this might be odious to some ...but others will find that preferable to the Republican plan which simply passes on the debt to our children and grandchildren.So tell me Merc which way would you raather do it...pay the bill now or run wars on our childrens dime?


Slvemike, fuck the little cocksuckers!
Let's really screw them good!
Let's put the boots to them!
"Ha, Ha, Grampy's driving a new Cadillac that you're paying for you little pinheads!"
Popeye do you even have children,could these be other people's children and grandchildren you seem to be so callous about?...Thank god I know you're kidding...aren't you?


Slvemike, no I don't have any kids but everytime the doorbell rings I panic.
Let's really stick it to them!
Sure, raise minimum wage up to $19.95 an hour!
But, let's keep all that money in the U.S. fuck those foreign countries!

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Hillary's speech:opinion's - 8/27/2008 12:15:27 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		Speaking of inheritance and future generations...

How do the Obama supporters feel about the increase of the estate tax to 45%?

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Hillary's speech:opinion's - 8/27/2008 12:25:54 PM   
SilverMark


Posts: 3457
Joined: 5/9/2007
Status: offline 		I have yet to read any mention of inheritance taxes being raised in any of the Obama policy statements nor have I seen a dollar figure used in his plan to tie the minimum wage to inflation. Yes, I have actually read all of that stuff!...I think I need a hobby!

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Hillary's speech:opinion's - 8/27/2008 12:39:52 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		The exact dollar ammount for the minimum wage was just placed in the platform.

As for the estate tax issue, he is lowering the exempted ammount and raising the top rate to 45%, in an attempt to repeal what he refered to on the Senate floor as the Paris Hilton tax break.

quote:

First of all, let's call this trillion-dollar giveaway what it is - the Paris Hilton Tax Break. It's about giving billions of dollars to billionaire heirs and heiresses at a time when American taxpayers just can't afford it.

The Republicans have brought out the Paris Hilton Tax Break in June because they're eager to make it an election issue in November.


I won't even talk about how funny that is, compared to the ads that came out a month or so later....  The figures of 45% come from CNN articles and the tax policy center.

Just an FYI,
Thadius

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to SilverMark)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Hillary's speech:opinion's - 8/27/2008 12:40:29 PM   
DomKen


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Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Speaking of inheritance and future generations...

How do the Obama supporters feel about the increase of the estate tax to 45%?

Do you really want an answer? I've got no problem with making the inheritance a very progressive tax. Start at something like 5% for estates valued ay 100k and max out at 95% for estates valued at 1 billion+. Same thing for gift taxes and any other attempt to distribute wealth across generations,  trust funds and the like, or to move wealth out of the country.

The inheritors didn't earn the money and I have no problem breaking down an increasingly stagnant class structure.

quote:

What ramifications will there be from making the National Minimum Wage $9.50?  I can see a need for such on a state by state basis, California, Illinois, and New York come to mind right away.  How would that increase effect the cost of living, jobs, and economies in places like Mississipi, Arkansas or rural states?

From the Obama site:
quote:


  • Raise the Minimum Wage: Barack Obama will raise the minimum wage, index it to inflation and increase the Earned Income Tax Credit to make sure that full-time workers earn a living wage that allows them to raise their families and pay for basic needs.

    • So nothing about a specific target and by indexing it to inflation it will roughly remain at the same level permanently. The economy would adjust as it always does to increases in the minimum wage and I imagine Tyson and some of the other agro processing facilities that employ hispanics primarily (because no one else will do that nasty work for starvation wages) will see more US citizen applicants.

    John McCain on the minimum wage:
    quote:

    ...


    quote:

    I am curious about what jobs will the tax preparers that get laid off or fired be doing?  Or are companies like H&R Block and Hewlett supposed to keep those folks employed with such a loss in demand? 

    Since the plan involves both job retraining and job creation I'd guess their isn't any need for such a proposal. Seems awfully minor nitpick to me.

    Thanks for making my point though.

    (in reply to Thadius)
    Profile   Post #: 79
    RE: Hillary's speech:opinion's - 8/27/2008 12:43:23 PM   
    SilverMark


    Posts: 3457
    Joined: 5/9/2007
    Status: offline     		Thanks Thadius, as always never just opinion from you...
    I think I still need more hobbies

    (in reply to Thadius)
    Profile   Post #: 80
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