RE: Chancellor Darling admits Labour have failed

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Politesub53 -> RE: Chancellor Darling admits Labour have failed (8/30/2008 4:29:16 AM)
Maybe Ed Balls would have made a better chancellor, even better than Brown, at least he studied the subject at Uni. Osbourne has had some experience while working in the shadow chancellors dept, although he is too prone for exageration for my liking. I dont particularly blame Darling for the current fiasco, i firmly believe Brown still calls the shots. What do you call middle class ? If you look at the current crisis, it is homes worth a million £ or so, that are losing value the quickest. As always i think the hardest hit will be the first time buyer, many of these being white collar workers. Also hard hit are the elderly home owners, unless they have money behind them. Rising costs have eaten away savings and they are unable to sell and downsize in the current economic climate. While i am at it, try and find a book called The People Of The Abyss, by Jack London. Its fascinating stuff about his time in the East End circa 1905, among the poor. The first thing that strikes me, is despite another 100 years of so called civilised behaviour, the underlying causes for poverty are still much the same.

Aneirin -> RE: Chancellor Darling admits Labour have failed (8/30/2008 5:03:14 AM)
One thing I seem to notice about Britain's attitude to finance, is the 'Get rich quick' mentality,anything that becomes useful gets sold off and the money made goes where. Labour used to be the party of the people, well, that was what the people thought until the advent of new labour and Blair, now labour is much the same as conservative and voting might just come down to do you like the colour blue or red. Like the US, we need change too, and we need a leader that inspires, not the least worse of a bad bunch. Yes, labour has failed, like the party before it and the party before that, they are all responsible for chewing up this country. Our infrastructure is not up to the job, antiquated and falling apart, we have a chanel tunnel connecting us with Europe, but our railway lines can't take the french trains, our tracks are too small and our bridges too low, so 'Europe' stops at Dover. Even our public transport, supposedly the cheapest form of travel, are they kidding, I have been using public transport for a year now and I have worked out, it would be cheaper for me to have my own transport in the form of a car and that kept and driven legally, even with the fuel price hike, it is still cheaper and of course more convenient and comfortable. Darling is correct, and it is a breath of fresh air to see that has been admitted, we are pissed off with the piss poor government we have, but it is not just the present office, it all of them, not one has set in place a long term strategy to make Britain a better place for the people of Britain. They have all failed us.

rookey -> RE: Chancellor Darling admits Labour have failed (8/30/2008 6:33:43 AM)
Gordon Brown was just like any other Labour Chancellor. Tax until it hurts is okay just so long as the economy continues to expand, come the inevitable downturn and its '%&*^ where's the money gone!?' Thatcher wasn't without her faults, but at least she a firm believer in not living beyond what the country couldn't afford.

meatcleaver -> RE: Chancellor Darling admits Labour have failed (8/30/2008 10:32:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Mangement practices were not the reason for the decline of the industry. The only reason for the downfall from any manufacturing industry is one of cost. All the time other countries can produce the same product for less cost, they are the ones who will hold sway. The state of the Unions in Germany had no part in the downfall of manufacturing here. Costs alone were the cause, its that simple, strikes or poor management, the end result was importing goods was cheaper. Why do you think everything now comes from China ? And yes, re Northern Rock i blame labour, they hold the strings and didnt act. Morris of Morris Motors boasted how little he invested in the company and how much he saved (wrong headedly of course) Queens University in Belfest used to do R&D for British motorcycle companies and for Yamaha. When the engineering department wanted money to to test research, British companies would take 6 months to make a decision, Yamaha took 24 hours. Vanguard motors refused to believe the chasises on their cars were breaking in Belgian and when they found out they were, they blamed Belgian roads, not their design or quality control. The cost of German labour was 30% higher than British throughout the 60s and 70s, the difference was, German comnpanies kept reinvesting in new machinery while the British worker had to keep plugging away on obsolete equipement. That is a direct result of management not investing in a company, not strikes and the fact Germans went on strike more often than British workers goes some way to proving that. Germany proves not everything has to be made in China, the products just have to be good enough for people to be willing to pay a premium. That is down to long term planning where British management (and American management) want profits today and obviously think fuck tomorrow. I could go on and on. Northern Rock was down to deregulation something the Tories still hold dear to so while it might be Labour's fault for not reregulating the financial inductry, the Tories wouldn't have done anything different.

Politesub53 -> RE: Chancellor Darling admits Labour have failed (8/30/2008 11:06:13 AM)
Meatcleaver, how many days were lost to Germany in strikes, in the 70s ? A link would be appreciated. The Uk lost 128 million working days from 1970 to 1979. As for quoting about the unfortunate Mr Morris and Vanguard cars, both ceased to exist in 1963, so the vague quote he is said to have made, hardly represents the 70s. Incidentally, i doubt a man who was prepared to invest £10 million setting up social projects, ( whats that worth today ) would have been tight with his money.

meatcleaver -> RE: Chancellor Darling admits Labour have failed (8/30/2008 11:36:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Meatcleaver, how many days were lost to Germany in strikes, in the 70s ? A link would be appreciated. The Uk lost 128 million working days from 1970 to 1979. As for quoting about the unfortunate Mr Morris and Vanguard cars, both ceased to exist in 1963, so the vague quote he is said to have made, hardly represents the 70s. Incidentally, i doubt a man who was prepared to invest £10 million setting up social projects, ( whats that worth today ) would have been tight with his money. Precisely, they were nationalized like all the other uselessly managed British industries. I trained on obsolete machinery, built in 1913 to be precise, when I went to work in Holland and Belgium, it was the first time I worked on modern machinery, that is some indictment. Also the fact that Germany, France and even Italy have larger manufacturing sectors than Britain says something about British management As for strikes, that information was on the BBC's documentary series about British industry (All Our Working Lives?). I think the 128 million figure also includes lock outs which was employer action and not an employee action. I'll try searching for comparative figures.

Aneirin -> RE: Chancellor Darling admits Labour have failed (8/30/2008 12:35:52 PM)
The way I heard it, Britain and it's allies did a very good job of destroying Germany's antiquated and obsolete machinery in WW2. Only till after the war when money was pumped into Germany to get it's industry going again did they get new and maybe even state of the art machinery, I suppose the best machines the Allies could make and win those lucrative contracts. Germany with new machinery and a more than capable engineering work force went from strength to strength. So they had some hiccups along the way, but look what comes out of Germany now, nothing but superb and reliable engineering, and they have a reputation worldwide. The story of Britain, being in the last enginnering feats, was in the Victorian era, not even the 1900's

meatcleaver -> RE: Chancellor Darling admits Labour have failed (8/30/2008 1:13:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin The way I heard it, Britain and it's allies did a very good job of destroying Germany's antiquated and obsolete machinery in WW2. Only till after the war when money was pumped into Germany to get it's industry going again did they get new and maybe even state of the art machinery, I suppose the best machines the Allies could make and win those lucrative contracts. Germany with new machinery and a more than capable engineering work force went from strength to strength. So they had some hiccups along the way, but look what comes out of Germany now, nothing but superb and reliable engineering, and they have a reputation worldwide. Actually, the allies didn't do that great a job of destroying German industry, most allied bombing was terror bombing of German cities. The reason for German drop in output throughout the war was their inability to access resources. The Germans were catching up to Britain throughout the late 19th century because British industrialists once they made their money in industry were more interested in becoming gentrified and didn't reinvest in new factories but used their wealth to build country piles for themselves. From the height of the industrial revolution, money was bleeding out of the new cities such as Birmingham, Manchester and Sheffield to the south because of this. Engineering and manufacturing have never enjoyed the status in Britain that they enjoy in Germany.

Politesub53 -> RE: Chancellor Darling admits Labour have failed (8/30/2008 5:12:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver From the height of the industrial revolution, money was bleeding out of the new cities such as Birmingham, Manchester and Sheffield to the south because of this. Engineering and manufacturing have never enjoyed the status in Britain that they enjoy in Germany. Utter tosh, most Northern industrialists stayed up north, and so did the wealth they made. As for saying manufacturing in the UK didnt enjoy the status German manufacturing did, where did you dig up that notion ? You cant even get your facts right about the car industry either. William Morris died in 1963, The same year BMC was formed. Your claim about them being re nationalised took place 5 years later.

Aneirin -> RE: Chancellor Darling admits Labour have failed (8/30/2008 7:01:46 PM)
Do you know what is interesting, that come Monday or possible sooner the offical government 'truth', will be something slightly different. The question is, who do we trust the most to give us the truth we deserve ?

meatcleaver -> RE: Chancellor Darling admits Labour have failed (8/31/2008 3:00:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver From the height of the industrial revolution, money was bleeding out of the new cities such as Birmingham, Manchester and Sheffield to the south because of this. Engineering and manufacturing have never enjoyed the status in Britain that they enjoy in Germany. Utter tosh, most Northern industrialists stayed up north, and so did the wealth they made. As for saying manufacturing in the UK didnt enjoy the status German manufacturing did, where did you dig up that notion ? You cant even get your facts right about the car industry either. William Morris died in 1963, The same year BMC was formed. Your claim about them being re nationalised took place 5 years later. Read your history, money was bleeding south throughout the industrial revolution, the fact that more was being made to replace it for a few decades is immaterial. So Morris's lack of investment had nothing to do with the decline of Morris Motors? You just have to look what European makers were investing in the car industry to counter that. The idea that the decline of Morris Motors only started with Morris's death is absurd, it started way before that. In fact there is a similar pattern throughout the British car industry which is why it all ended up nationalized.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Chancellor Darling admits Labour have failed (8/31/2008 3:24:28 AM)
Well I find it all rather amusing since I have believed for at least 30 years that the UK is unsustainable. The root economc machine has collapsed. Just as you cant live off the fruits of love so you cant live off public school experts posing and pontificating on radio 4 and its equivalents.We need doers not observers and critics. This is not a party political matter. Both parties after having poured zillions into manufacture sat by and watched the decline and in some cases welomed it so that we could become the first post industrial nation.. Shows that politicions cant do much when the shit hits the fan. Gentility and disdain for trade at the top levels of society are the root cause of our problems. We are now too far behind to stop things getting steadily worse. Note: I live about a mile fom where the GEC factory is being dismantled and about three miles from where the Peugot factory has been dismantled. I heard on the news this morning that the facts about peace overtures with Germany in WW2, which lots already new about, have now come out into the open. The BBC commentator said that fortunately the overtures came to nought. What was fortunate about it I cant imagine. We didnt free Poland, bankrupted ourselves and killed millions in the process.

Politesub53 -> RE: Chancellor Darling admits Labour have failed (8/31/2008 4:47:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Read your history, money was bleeding south throughout the industrial revolution, the fact that more was being made to replace it for a few decades is immaterial. So Morris's lack of investment had nothing to do with the decline of Morris Motors? You just have to look what European makers were investing in the car industry to counter that. The idea that the decline of Morris Motors only started with Morris's death is absurd, it started way before that. In fact there is a similar pattern throughout the British car industry which is why it all ended up nationalized. And the strikes helped make it all better huh ? As i said, and you ignored, would a man like Morris spend £10 Million on social welfare, yet not invest in his factories ? He actually retired from the company in 1952, long before the decline set in. Seems it isnt me who needs to read my history. I have not seen any history saying the south bled the north dry, during the industrial revolution ? What the hell do you think caused the expansionism of the great cities of northern England ? Can you provide a link showing where the money all went south please. It may have gone into the pockets of the rich, both north and south, dont kid yourself to think it did anything to help the average southerner though.

RealityLicks -> RE: Chancellor Darling admits Labour have failed (8/31/2008 5:47:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Maybe Ed Balls would have made a better chancellor, even better than Brown, at least he studied the subject at Uni. Osbourne has had some experience while working in the shadow chancellors dept, although he is too prone for exageration for my liking. I dont particularly blame Darling for the current fiasco, i firmly believe Brown still calls the shots. What do you call middle class ? If you look at the current crisis, it is homes worth a million £ or so, that are losing value the quickest. As always i think the hardest hit will be the first time buyer, many of these being white collar workers. Also hard hit are the elderly home owners, unless they have money behind them. Rising costs have eaten away savings and they are unable to sell and downsize in the current economic climate. I've read speculation that Ed Balls does want to be Chancellor and who are we to doubt his credentials? After all, he invented neo-classical non-endogenous growth theory and we all recognise the value of that little contribution to the gaiety of nations. Word of caution; his missus is Chief Secretary and the idea of a husband and wife team running the Treasury just doesn't seem right. Not sure how first-time buyers are worst hit in a property crash, as lower prices will suit them best. It's the banks' raising of lending criteria that hits them hardest, although this is currently being spun as an anti-Labour brickbat against stamp duty and even - typically - inheritance tax. As for the elderly, remember that a decade+ of rising prices has benefitted them hugely - explicitly at the cost of the next generation of buyers. It's sad for those who haven't cashed in on equity rises and may now have missed the boat but hey, that's capitalism. If they didn't want this to happen, they shouldn't have voted for Thatcher. If you see Sid , tell him. As for selling and downsizing: won't it all depend on location? Smaller properties are hardest hit by the dearth of 1st-timers, so buyers with fat deposits can do well on price and with the latest cheap deals that are coming through, if they price their current property sensibly. The housing bubble transferred wealth from the younger generation to the older; we've seen the ebb, now its time for the flow.

NumberSix -> RE: Chancellor Darling admits Labour have failed (8/31/2008 5:51:38 AM)
LOL. This thread is so veddy, veddy, veddy english. innit? You got some balls, Ed. Oh, darling! 6

RealityLicks -> RE: Chancellor Darling admits Labour have failed (8/31/2008 5:56:30 AM)
Anglophile alert. Clean-up crew: suspicious substance in Aisle 8, clean-up crew to Aisle 8. [sm=mop.gif]

Jeffff -> RE: Chancellor Darling admits Labour have failed (8/31/2008 6:04:03 AM)
we shall fuck on the beaches, we shall fuck on the landing grounds, we shall fuck in the fields and in the streets, we shall fuck in the hills; we shall never surrender. Regards, Winston

caitlyn -> RE: Chancellor Darling admits Labour have failed (8/31/2008 6:12:42 AM)
The UK, and the rest of the west, have wonderful manufacturing capabilities and a strong workforce. They are just in competition with nations that have a near slave workforce. Teriffs are needed, which will cause short term pain and inflation in the west. Eventually, the rise in domestic and intra-European sales and production will offset the rising prices of good. Until that time, both Labour and Conservative governments are just applying band-aids.

RealityLicks -> RE: Chancellor Darling admits Labour have failed (8/31/2008 7:46:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn Teriffs are needed, which will cause short term pain and inflation in the west. Eventually, the rise in domestic and intra-European sales and production will offset the rising prices of good. I'm not convinced that tariffs will work as you describe, the problem is investment. That's just a 19th cent. response to a 21st cent. problem. The UK subsidises manufacturing less than its W.European competitors and investors too often seek the higher returns available offshore instead of backing innovative companies here. Despite that and a strong pound, output has been slowly growing. It's truer in some regions than others but a preponderance of heavy industry is somehow linked to a sense of well-being and optimism. The thinking is that only people standing at a lathe in a factory are actually productive. Having the lowest unemployment figures in a generation is irrelevant, they say, if factories close, the sky will soon fall. The tendency is not to see the changes in manufacturing - which still contributes 15%+ of GDP - and to think in terms of the past, not the future. Ministers' ability to order events, particularly in these days of globalisation, are radically lessened. In order to out-compete others, the UK needs to concentrate education, R&D at the top end, value-added segment, where low-wage economies don't have any advantage.

Politesub53 -> RE: Chancellor Darling admits Labour have failed (8/31/2008 10:46:22 AM)
RL, i agree investment is the solution, much of the UK infrastructure has been underfunded for decades, not just recently. Regards first time buyers, they are the ones feeling the crunch, partly due to negative equity, caused by banks giving 120% mortgages ect, and also due to new housing, mainly flats, being over priced. Two causes of this were the deregulation of building societies, and the change to inflation rates, caused by taking house prices out of the equation. Can i just point out that not everyone caught out by the current crisis voted Thatcher, i thought you said you were against these kind of comments ? [;)] As for tariffs, i see them as little more than protectionism, either we live with a global economy, and free trade, or we dont, but there wont ever be a time when tariffs are fair for everyone.

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