Presidential candidate comparisons. (Full Version)

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Thadius -> Presidential candidate comparisons. (8/30/2008 12:43:30 PM)

Well I figured it was time to start a thread like this, first to help with all of the cross posting, but also to provide a single place for the information to be found.  My first posts are going to simply provide information from the various candidates own websites, I think this is a fair way to start the discussions, without adding any of my own partiality to the base of this topic.  By all means express your political opinions, spin, or whatever else you feel is important.  I simply ask that it doesn't turn into the typical name calling flame fest,  if that is the only thing you are going to include in your post, you might as well keep it to yourself.  I am hoping this thread will lead to a good comparison and debate about the candidates and their policies.  So lets get to it.

On energy:
http://www.bobbarr2008.com/issues/energy-policy/
http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/newenergy
http://www.johnmccain.com//Informing/Issues/17671aa4-2fe8-4008-859f-0ef1468e96f4.htm

Taxes:
http://www.bobbarr2008.com/issues/taxes/
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/fiscal/#fair-tax
http://www.johnmccain.com/Issues/JobsforAmerica/taxes.htm

Economy:
http://www.bobbarr2008.com/issues/spending-economy/
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/economy/
http://www.johnmccain.com/Issues/jobsforamerica/

Well that should be a good primer.  I will get to my positions on each in a future post.  I look forward to the upcoming discussions.




bipolarber -> RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. (8/30/2008 12:44:33 PM)

What? No Nader? LOL




Thadius -> RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. (8/30/2008 12:46:11 PM)

I debated about adding Nader and Paul... somebody else can go through their websites and provide the info.  I have enough problems keeping up with these 3.




Thadius -> RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. (8/30/2008 1:39:27 PM)

Getting into the nuts and bolts I found a recent amendment offered on the senate floor discussing fiscal spending, it is very eye opening.

quote:

 Amendment 4246 US Senate:






Sen. Obama has offered 188 campaign proposals that would add up to at least $300 billion in new annual spending. That has a 5-year cost of more than $1.4 TRILLION.
Of the 188 new spending proposals, the $300 billion price tag only covers 111 proposals. There are another 77 proposals with unknown cost estimates that will add billions to this number.
This new spending, if enacted, would represent an almost 10% increase over the President’s FY 2009 budget






To put this in perspective, this $300 billion spending proposals would cost more than 42 states’ budgets combined (general fund expenditures). It is more than the United States spent last year on imported oil ($294 billion net). It is more than 60% larger than any one-year federal spending increase, ever.
Who will pay for the proposed $300 billion increase in spending? Middle-class American taxpayers and small businesses (which are the engine of growth for our economy), that’s who. Raising taxes on just the "rich" simply won’t cover it.
Under Pay-Go budget rules, new spending or tax cuts are paid for by spending cuts or tax hikes. The CBO budget baseline already incorporates the extra revenue due to higher tax rates, so the end of the Bush tax cuts won’t pay for the proposed spending and still satisfy Pay-Go.
Senator Obama has promised to pay for his record new spending increases with a tax increase on families making $250,000 and over. However, this increase would only yield $225 billion over 5 years, a far cry short of the $1.4 trillion required under his new spending plan.



This also does not include the Obama World Poverty Act, which requires an addtional $845 BILLION in spending to go to the UN.  It is S.2433 and mandates 0.7% of the US GNP, along with a bunch of other fun stuff.  Take a look if you get a chance.

My simple question is, how are these things going to be paid for, as it is obvious that taxing the "wealthy" is not going to cover it?




celticlord2112 -> RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. (8/30/2008 2:22:18 PM)

Obama's platform raises questions rather than offering answers.

On energy:
  • What is a "green" job? 
  • What does job creation have to do with energy?
  • How is "energy efficiency" an "energy source"? 
  • What are "windfall profits"?
  • What is "excessive energy speculation"?
  • How will tapping the Strategic Petroleum Reserve lower prices?
  • How does $4Billion in tax credits to the auto industry reconcile with the taxation goal of "closing special-interest loopholes"?
On taxes, just one question:  Who are "the wealthy"?

On the economy:  How do any of the proposals mentioned support a free-market economy?




kittinSol -> RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. (8/30/2008 2:54:42 PM)

I see. This is officially a "Battle of the Links thread" [sm=duel.gif][sm=fight.gif][sm=pillowfight.gif]: I shudder to think what it'll look like in a couple of pages. Promise you guys will stop posting multiple links everywhere else? Is this a dedicated area?

Thank you: it was about time [8D] .




Thadius -> RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. (8/30/2008 6:01:39 PM)

Hmmm... I thought those supporting Obama would jump all over this chance to discuss policy and issues.




celticlord2112 -> RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. (8/30/2008 6:05:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Hmmm... I thought those supporting Obama would jump all over this chance to discuss policy and issues.

Have any of the Obama supporters ever taken up the opportunity to discuss the issues?




Thadius -> RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. (8/30/2008 6:11:30 PM)

Not yet.  I can't understand why.




BitaTruble -> RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. (8/30/2008 7:13:42 PM)

~FR~

One of the criteria I use in determining who I find best suited to represent my personal interest and the interests of my country is the educational CV of each candidate. I have made my comparison and find one candidate far surpasses the other in this area. The educational CV of a candidates carries a moderate amount of weight with me.

Another criteria I use is stability in family and family values. One of the candidates far surpasses the other in this area. Stability in family and family values holds a moderate amount of weight with me.

A third criteria is which, if any, of the candidates believes as I believe in various areas. None are exactly the same, but one is much more closely aligned with my beliefs than the other. I use voting records, books which have been written by the candidates, speeches and other forms of data to determine whether or not a given candidate and I are on the same page. These things carry a great deal of weight with me.

I do this with each area which is of interest to me or which I believe will effect or has the possibility to effect my country and the people within it, assigning more or less weight as the issue warrants determined solely by me and my abilities to research, read and extrapolate the data I find. 

I actually do a true comparision and as someone who votes issues rather than party lines, this has always been how I've spent my research time and cast my vote. I have voted republican, democrat, independent and green in local, state and federal elections at various times since I cast my first ballot in 1978. There are some issues which are deal breakers for me .. if any candidate embraces one of my deal-breakers, it doesn't matter what else they may believe in .. it's not possible to garner my vote.

Oh, for what it's worth, unless something major comes down the pike between now and Nov., I've finished my research process and have gone from 'undecided' to 'decided'.

Go me. [8D]




Thadius -> RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. (8/30/2008 7:20:41 PM)

Celeste,

Excellent post.  I wish more people would actually weigh the issues and actually research the positions of each of the candidates, as opposed to blindly walking a party line.  It is a shame that everything is being boiled down to soundbites.  I guess that is to be expected in a society that feels entitled to instant gratification.

This Nov, I know I am going to be voting a split ticket on all levels, national, state, and local.  Glad to read that you have made up your mind on the big ticket.




Thadius -> RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. (8/30/2008 9:02:13 PM)

From Obama's website:
quote:

Obama is the only major candidate who supports tough, direct presidential diplomacy with Iran without preconditions. Now is the time to pressure Iran directly to change their troubling behavior. Obama would offer the Iranian regime a choice. If Iran abandons its nuclear program and support for terrorism, we will offer incentives like membership in the World Trade Organization, economic investments, and a move toward normal diplomatic relations. If Iran continues its troubling behavior, we will step up our economic pressure and political isolation. Seeking this kind of comprehensive settlement with Iran is our best way to make progress.


So apparantly this is the one case where Obama would not rely on the UN, and that if Iran doesn't listen to Obama and reverse their actions that he will push for more sanctions and political isolation?  Isn't that what is going on now, except for the direct presidential contact and that the UN is involved in the diplomacy?  Talk about hubris and delusions of grandeur.  Oh wait, I missed the part where he is going to offer bribes to this "tiny threat of a country".

Please somebody tell me I am reading this wrong.




cloudboy -> RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. (8/30/2008 10:19:18 PM)


McCain makes no mention of the Budget Deficit.




Thadius -> RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. (8/31/2008 8:19:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


McCain makes no mention of the Budget Deficit.


He doesn't?

http://www.johnmccain.com/Issues/JobsforAmerica/reform.htm

quote:

  

The McCain administration would reserve all savings from victory in the Iraq and Afghanistan operations in the fight against Islamic extremists for reducing the deficit. Since all their costs were financed with deficit spending, all their savings must go to deficit reduction.

A one-year spending pause. Freeze non-defense, non-veterans discretionary spending for a year and use those savings for deficit reduction. A one-year pause in the growth of discretionary spending will be imposed to allow for a comprehensive review of all spending programs. After the completion of a comprehensive review of all programs, projects and activities of the federal government, we will propose a plan to modernize, streamline, consolidate, reprioritize and, where needed, terminate individual programs.

A McCain Administration will provide the leadership to achieve bipartisan spending restraint equivalent to that in the 1997 Balanced Budget Agreement between a GOP Congress and a Democratic President. In 1997, President Clinton and the GOP Congress agreed to balance the budget by restraining the growth in spending and cutting taxes over a ten-year period.

With the same bipartisan effort today, with the federal budget that is now 70 percent larger, we could keep taxes low and still balance the budget by holding overall spending growth to 2.4 percent. Unlike Congress and the Executive branch in recent years, a McCain Administration will enforce the spending restraint to balance the budget and keep it balanced.

A McCain Administration would perform a comprehensive review of all programs, projects and activities of the federal government, and then propose a plan to modernize, streamline, consolidate, reprioritize and, where needed, terminate individual programs. McCain could use the bi-partisan commission structure used for the Defense Base Realignment and Closure Commission (BRAC). Such a commission could be required to report to the President who would then submit the recommendations to the Congress for a straight up or down vote.

A McCain Administration will review all special spending provisions to end subsidies to high-income individuals and corporations.

Stop Earmarks, Pork-Barrel Spending, And Waste: John McCain will veto every pork-laden spending bill and make their authors famous. As President, he will seek the line-item veto to reduce waste and eliminate earmarks that have led to corruption. Earmarks restrict America's ability to address genuine national priorities and interfere with fair, competitive markets.


Take back earmark funds. The McCain Administration will reclaim billions of add-on spending from earmarks and add-ons in FY 2007 and 2008.


Just to briefly summarize...  How does Obama pay for all of his spending proposals?




gina0055 -> RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. (8/31/2008 8:25:50 AM)

From the Washington Monthly:
'OUTRIGHT LIE' ON TAXES.... When he's not talking about Britney Spears, arugula, or tire-pressure gauges, John McCain tends to attack Barack Obama on taxes. In fact, most of McCain recent ads feature the phrase "higher taxes" -- in all caps -- alongside Obama's picture.
Obama is no doubt aware of McCain's deceptive attacks, and emphasized his tax plan in his acceptance speech in Denver on Thursday: "You know, unlike John McCain, I will stop giving tax breaks to companies that ship jobs overseas, and I will start giving them to companies that create good jobs right here in America. I'll eliminate capital gains taxes for the small businesses and start-ups that will create the high-wage, high-tech jobs of tomorrow. I will -- listen now -- I will cut taxes -- cut taxes -- for 95 percent of all working families, because, in an economy like this, the last thing we should do is raise taxes on the middle class."
With that in mind, it was encouraging to see the Washington Post editorial board note today that "McCain's ads on taxes are just plain false," and his campaign's message is peddling a "phony, misleading and at times outright dishonest" line.

[T]he McCain campaign insists on completely misrepresenting Mr. Obama's plan. The ad opens with the Obama-as-celebrity theme -- "Celebrities don't have to worry about family budgets, but we sure do," says the female announcer. "We're paying more for food and gas, making it harder to save for college, retirement." Then she sticks it to him: "Obama's solution? Higher taxes, called 'a recipe for economic disaster.' He's ready to raise your taxes but not ready to lead."
The facts? The nonpartisan Tax Policy Center found that the Obama plan would give households in the bottom fifth of the income distribution an average tax cut of 5.5 percent of income ($567) in 2009, while those in the middle fifth would get an average cut of 2.6 percent of income ($1,118). "Your taxes" would go up, yes -- but not if you're someone who is sweating higher gas prices. By contrast, Mr. McCain's tax plan would give those in the bottom fifth of income an average tax cut of $21 in 2009. The middle fifth would get $325 -- less than a third of the Obama cut. The wealthiest taxpayers make out terrifically.



The Post doesn't seem fond of any plan to cut taxes, but the editorial board nevertheless concludes that McCain has been pushing an "outright lie."
Given that news outlets are generally very reluctant to use the "l" word when it comes to McCain's shameless dishonesty, it was encouraging to see Hiatt & Co. set the record straight.




Thadius -> RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. (8/31/2008 8:33:25 AM)

 
quote:

"Your taxes" would go up, yes -- but not if you're someone who is sweating higher gas prices.

So Obama is raising taxes on middle class folks, just not those that are sweating higher gas prices?  Got it.

He said as much in his acceptance speech when he claimed that only 95% of working class families would get a tax cut. 




cloudboy -> RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. (8/31/2008 8:52:37 AM)

quote:

He doesn't?


Well, he didn't under "taxes." If you are going to reduce the deficit, you have to hike taxes and control spending.




thishereboi -> RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. (8/31/2008 9:24:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Hmmm... I thought those supporting Obama would jump all over this chance to discuss policy and issues.


I'm sorry, but I am going to have to call bs on that one.

edited to add: How many times have you tried to get them to answer the question "What makes him qualified?"  and you haven't gotten an answer that I have seen. Now you expect them to discuss policy and issues? Naw, they are to busy digging up 20 yr old jokes and trying to find something (anything, true or not) that they can dig up on the new VP.




Thadius -> RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. (8/31/2008 9:28:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

He doesn't?


Well, he didn't under "taxes." If you are going to reduce the deficit, you have to hike taxes and control spending.


If that is true why are revenues higher now?  Also, if you raise taxes on investments and corporations, how does this encourage spending or job creation?

The reason the budget is fucked is because of the out of control spending, along with us being involved in 2 wars, NOT because of lower taxes.




Thadius -> RE: Presidential candidate comparisons. (8/31/2008 9:29:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Hmmm... I thought those supporting Obama would jump all over this chance to discuss policy and issues.


I'm sorry, but I am going to have to call bs on that one.


You are right, I was being sarcastic.  As I know most would avoid issues like the plague, however did you hear that great speech the other night?[;)]




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