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RE: Femdom porn for women... - 9/8/2008 6:55:10 AM

LadyLou

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For me, no matter what the genre, there has to be passion, chemistry and energy, both parties have to (or act convincingly enough) to seem like they are genuinely enjoying themselves. Responsive actors are a must.

Male orientated porn, for the most part, seems to be based on mechanics and reduced to formulaic drudgery. Virtually all the male focused porn I have seen is about making sure they do steps 1, 2, and 3, then a ridiculous focus on him blowing his load. There rarely is any significant focus on her pleasure, she is merely a vessel. You will rarely find a male focused porn movie where she cums (or genuinely cums). I find that a HUGE turn off, and I know a lot of guys do also.

On a more specific personal note, I want to see genuinely female led porn, where it is all about the womans pleasure… with the male obviously enjoying it as well. In porn, I want to see a woman taking charge in a more realistic and natural way, that IS for her benefit, and not because she is some implausibly hammy cliché with a whip…. Or some evil seductress trying to fuck him for evil reasons. What about her taking control, just because she is in control, and that is how she likes it! These cheesy movies always seem to have to give her a ‘reason’ to be dominant.

For me, dual/equal camera focus is a important. I want to see both participants reacting. I also find an over-use of ‘POV’ shots annoying. I like some, but I want to see it all, I want to see reactive faces and bodies working, not one or the other.

To me, it doesn’t really matter if it is vanilla fucking, or BDSM porn. If it has the above, I’m gonna find it hot. The most important thing for my personal porn ideal - is the genuine female orgasm, and the route that gets her there.

(in reply to sodsta)

Post #: 21

RE: Femdom porn for women... - 9/8/2008 2:23:12 PM

Inglevine

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LadyLou, I agree with you completely. That would be some damn awesome porn, IMO.

(in reply to LadyLou)

Post #: 22

RE: Femdom porn for women... - 9/9/2008 3:05:28 PM

azjojoba

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I have found it almost impossible to find good femdom porn. Most video stores don't have any at all. I guess the bottom line is that it's mostly men that buy porn, and they don't get off on seeing dominate females. That's kind of frustrating because I sure enjoy seeing them. Oh well!

(in reply to sodsta)

Post #: 23

RE: Femdom porn for women... - 9/9/2008 5:46:14 PM

MsCfromMelbourne

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I think plenty of men want to watch women (and even men) dominating men in porn

Our problem in Australia is that only "non-violent" erotica can get through the censors.

Any hanky panky with spanky is immediately banned. The stuff the censors label "violent" erotica is laughable

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Post #: 24

RE: Femdom porn for women... - 11/19/2008 9:31:42 AM

pussiboi

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Ok...this suggestion is most-admittedly self-serving...but it is nontheless genuine: i would offer myself and funds to start a real femdom porn company---one that is managed, directed, and produced by genuine dommes and intended for the viewing of dommes. Is this too crazy an idea?

(in reply to MsCfromMelbourne)

Post #: 25

RE: Femdom porn for women... - 11/19/2008 9:55:05 AM

AAkasha

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pussiboi

Ok...this suggestion is most-admittedly self-serving...but it is nontheless genuine: i would offer myself and funds to start a real femdom porn company---one that is managed, directed, and produced by genuine dommes and intended for the viewing of dommes. Is this too crazy an idea?

If you have some experience in producing films and allocating resources with a good idea of the market, no. If by "offer yourself" you mean that you will selflessly provide you as the 'star' in the movie vs. casting it, and by "funds" you mean $5,000 - then, yeah, I would say you are crazy.

Akasha

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Post #: 26

RE: Femdom porn for women... - 11/19/2008 9:58:42 AM

AlexandraLynch

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I wonder if some of it might be that some of us prefer to read our porn rather than watch it. I know I tend to find the written word works better for me than a movie. But I love to read anyway.

(in reply to MsCfromMelbourne)

Post #: 27

RE: Femdom porn for women... - 11/19/2008 10:19:26 AM

ShaktiSama

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The female viewpoint tends to be absent or discouraged in all Western art, but especially art of erotic subjects. As one of the earlier posters pointed out, this is also true of porn for other female sexual viewpoints other than dominance. Porn of female submissives is rarely FOR female submissives--if you want to experience porn that is FOR female submissives, BY female submissives, you need to read a romance novel. So it should be no surprise that porn OF female dominants is rarely FOR female dominants.

Why is this? Pretty simple: women don't make the art. And until they do, absolutely nothing will ever, ever change. This unfortunately is not something that you can just order some man to do for you and have it accomplished--expressing your personal point of view through art is not like doing the dishes, you can't just pawn it off as an unwelcome chore.

Men can express fear/hatred of female power in their artwork, or fantasy/desire to be subjected to female power in their artwork, but they cannot express the power itself--because they don't have it, will never have it, and have no real subjective experience of it. You can try to dictate your subjective viewpoint to any man, no matter how sensitive and well-meaning, for a lifetime--but you'll accomplish more in five minutes by picking up the camera yourself.

Women already tend to do this in media that take very little expense to master, like writing; female erotica writers make a much larger contribution than female artists in photography or film. Female writers can spend a great deal of time mastering their craft, just as cinematographers do, but they don't have to do it in a school setting or shell out for expensive equipment--all you need to write is a piece of paper and a 10-cent pencil.

Until women stop being intimidated by the price of a video camera or the responsibility of controlling even the simplest film set, they won't be able to express their viewpoint in that media.

As to who pays for what...? The marketplace is also a problem, but I doubt it would be a problem for very long. It's simply a case in which women would have to create their own market for their product and let their customers find them. Thanks to the Internet, finding an audience of thousands or millions is no longer really difficult, even for "small niche" porn.

As the OP points out, there is a hell of a lot of grousing on this forum about the unrealistic, unerotic, dehumanizing or disempowering or downright fucking stupid nature of most femdom porn. I don't feel the need to be that negative about the porn itself (at least not today)--what disturbs me more is that erotica which is scripted, directed and marketed by men and for men seems to be the only option, for the most part. I would be less inclined to bash men's fantasies if they were not being peddled as the only vision of my sexuality to the world at large.

< Message edited by ShaktiSama -- 11/19/2008 10:23:24 AM >

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Post #: 28

RE: Femdom porn for women... - 11/19/2008 11:04:32 AM

hardbodysub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

I think many femdoms enjoy m/m bondage porn for the focus on the sub, the actors being more charismatic and interesting/sexy, and a few other subtle things you don't see in F/m het porn. I think cues can be taken from sites like:

http://tieguyuk.com/

http://www.extremeboyz.com

and http://www.bondagejeopardy.com

Sensual, attractive, reactive bottoms are key. From there it can really branch out into a wide variety of avenues, becauase dominant women have differing tastes when it comes to extremes, etc.

I think the movie "Punish Me" does a great job of showing a very sensual, sexy sub. Worth renting. Perhaps too subtle for "femdom porn" - but I think it is moving in the right direction. (trailer is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTQnwZx9rHw)

Unfortunately the market size is too small to support the creation of anything with decent quality. A pet project of mine is to piggyback on the resources of an existing m/m bondage production and maybe peel off a small element of it with a femdom slant. I will probably start with the photo side rather than video, and I'm still debating the issue of cost - surely it will lose money. When I am at the height of a "femdom lust moment" the idea of dropping 10 - 20k on a pet project seems like a fine idea. Then I have a good lustful femdom session of my own and the hunger goes away and I think of much better ways to spend that kind of money - like a trip to Europe :).

Akasha

I agree with Akasha's general assessment of existing F/m porn, and what would make it better. I think existing F/m porn either focuses too much on just showing the domina in sexy poses, or showing a gratuitous, explicit sex act. I'd prefer to see males in helpless situations, with females clearly in control, not just a sub or domina alone. A domina alone may be sexy, but what she does is just as important as how she looks. A male sub alone in bondage isn't nearly as interesting as a sub clearly under the power of a woman.

The links Akasha posted do a great job of showing subs/bottoms in realistically inescapable bondage, and seriously helpless. Unfortunately, they're completely gay-oriented. The sub is shown either alone (not particularly interesting for me) or with male dominant(s) (a complete turnoff for me). What's enjoyable is imagining myself in the place of the sub, and if it's not a woman in charge, it's not exciting. I can understand how a domina could find the bound sub alone more interesting than I do; it's probably easier for her to picture herself next to him than it is for me to both change places with him and also imagine a woman next to him.

I guess what I find frustrating is that the femdom sites don't do nearly as well as gay and maledom/femsub sites at depicting the dominant really handling a helpless sub in interesting and exciting ways. The femdom sites seem to be oriented around the concept that all straight males want is sex, while the femsub and gay BDSM sites give more consideration to the eroticism of control.

(in reply to AAkasha)

Post #: 29

RE: Femdom porn for women... - 11/20/2008 9:56:28 AM

PeonForHer

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Women already tend to do this in media that take very little expense to master, like writing; female erotica writers make a much larger contribution than female artists in photography or film. Female writers can spend a great deal of time mastering their craft, just as cinematographers do, but they don't have to do it in a school setting or shell out for expensive equipment--all you need to write is a piece of paper and a 10-cent pencil.

Shakti, didn't you once say that most erotica ostensibly written by women was, in fact, written by men? Maybe my memory's failing me on that.

I have a fine, fine little D/s novel that has a female, domina's sort of name announced as its author. I bought it some five years ago. At the time, I came to my usual, cynical and slightly depressing, conclusion that it was written by a sub male. Yet, since I've be here at CM, I've realised the opposite might well be true. It's not just that scenes in it have been replicated here as real life experiences by various dominas - but the feelings, too. It's basically a lot better book than I thought it was.

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Post #: 30

RE: Femdom porn for women... - 11/20/2008 9:17:56 PM

ShaktiSama

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Shakti, didn't you once say that most erotica ostensibly written by women was, in fact, written by men? Maybe my memory's failing me on that.

Hee hee. No, actually what I said was that the only people that I *personally* know who write romance novels are men who use women's names to cash in on the market. Neither one of them has achieved wide audience appeal, but romance and paranormal romance are thriving markets and it's not a bad place to sell work if you're a working stiff.

Getting into the problem of who's allowed to write what POV in fiction is really not my cuppa. I could write an idealized male submissive protagonist in a story and some male submissives might identify with him, if I wrote the story well; a lot of women have identified with Marylyn Monroe as well, but that doesn't really mean that her persona was crafted by women for women.

Just means that women chose to buy into the fantasy because they liked it!

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Post #: 31

RE: Femdom porn for women... - 11/21/2008 7:41:17 AM

thetammyjo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Shakti, didn't you once say that most erotica ostensibly written by women was, in fact, written by men? Maybe my memory's failing me on that.

Hee hee. No, actually what I said was that the only people that I *personally* know who write romance novels are men who use women's names to cash in on the market. Neither one of them has achieved wide audience appeal, but romance and paranormal romance are thriving markets and it's not a bad place to sell work if you're a working stiff.

Getting into the problem of who's allowed to write what POV in fiction is really not my cuppa. I could write an idealized male submissive protagonist in a story and some male submissives might identify with him, if I wrote the story well; a lot of women have identified with Marylyn Monroe as well, but that doesn't really mean that her persona was crafted by women for women. Just means that women chose to buy into the fantasy because they liked it!

Here's the weird thing for me: When I write my target audience is me.

So is my target audience women? Doubtful, I'm currently reviewing this book that is supposed to be geared toward women to help them sort out their own best strategies for life and I can't relate at all to about 20% of it. So I'm clearly not every woman.

Is my target audience men? Again, I don't know because if porn is written for men then I don't write in that fashion -- too much focus on emotions and relationship and plot not enough on size and sexual acts.

What I do think about in terms of target audience is trying to communicate clearly so I get feedback from folks who aren't into BDSM or Ds. If they can understand what I'm saying and they can enjoy it, then I hope so can a kink audience.

But then I'm not wealthy doing this, am I?

With most porn the focus isn't on men or women either. It's on making money. A lot of money with the least amount of investment.

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Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to ShaktiSama)

Post #: 32

RE: Femdom porn for women... - 11/21/2008 7:54:17 AM

JoyfulMistress

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This may sound weird and perhaps the concept is impossible as we are talking porn but I would love to see the dynamics AND the relationship between the two .. I grow so tired of seeing the male hating ballcrushing b*tch in bra and garter ....( don't get me wrong ball crushing is fun in it's own right) I would like to that the female LOVES the one she is tormenting .. and enjoys doing it not because she is full of rage but because she is lifting hers to their lovely subspace and letting them fly around while she herself in deep in her DommeSpace.... give me that and heavens I would watch porn more often !

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 33

RE: Femdom porn for women... - 11/21/2008 9:45:49 AM

PeonForHer

Posts: 19612
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Shakti, didn't you once say that most erotica ostensibly written by women was, in fact, written by men? Maybe my memory's failing me on that.

Hee hee. No, actually what I said was that the only people that I *personally* know who write romance novels are men who use women's names to cash in on the market. Neither one of them has achieved wide audience appeal, but romance and paranormal romance are thriving markets and it's not a bad place to sell work if you're a working stiff.

Getting into the problem of who's allowed to write what POV in fiction is really not my cuppa. I could write an idealized male submissive protagonist in a story and some male submissives might identify with him, if I wrote the story well; a lot of women have identified with Marylyn Monroe as well, but that doesn't really mean that her persona was crafted by women for women. Just means that women chose to buy into the fantasy because they liked it!

I guess, in the end, I don't care, Shakti. So long as I know that the dommes depicted in my little porno book actually do feel that way in real life (at least some of the time), then I don't care who wrote it. And I am sure that they do, now. Like I once said, it's like discovering that Father Christmas actually does exist, for me.

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Post #: 34

RE: Femdom porn for women... - 11/21/2008 9:56:04 AM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Shakti, didn't you once say that most erotica ostensibly written by women was, in fact, written by men? Maybe my memory's failing me on that.

Hee hee. No, actually what I said was that the only people that I *personally* know who write romance novels are men who use women's names to cash in on the market. Neither one of them has achieved wide audience appeal, but romance and paranormal romance are thriving markets and it's not a bad place to sell work if you're a working stiff.

Getting into the problem of who's allowed to write what POV in fiction is really not my cuppa. I could write an idealized male submissive protagonist in a story and some male submissives might identify with him, if I wrote the story well; a lot of women have identified with Marylyn Monroe as well, but that doesn't really mean that her persona was crafted by women for women. Just means that women chose to buy into the fantasy because they liked it!

Here's the weird thing for me: When I write my target audience is me.

Lol! I can identify with that. I once saw a (very prim, quite square looking) woman being interviewed about how she'd made a fortune writing porn books. She said that she'd always start a story with a list of every kink that she'd heard about, then just built a story around those kinks.

I tried the same, once. I couldn't get beyond the first paragraph, it was that tedious to write.

So is my target audience women? Doubtful, I'm currently reviewing this book that is supposed to be geared toward women to help them sort out their own best strategies for life and I can't relate at all to about 20% of it. So I'm clearly not every woman.

Is my target audience men? Again, I don't know because if porn is written for men then I don't write in that fashion -- too much focus on emotions and relationship and plot not enough on size and sexual acts.

Shame. It's exactly those emotions (and thought processes) that I'd want to read about. Most of all, I'd be fascinated by 'what makes dominas tick'. I can, and probably already have, imagined most of the physical acts that people do. It's the feelings, particularly those of a dominant woman, that I can't. But I know full well that the educational books don't yield huge royalties . . .

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 11/21/2008 9:58:27 AM >

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Post #: 35

RE: Femdom porn for women... - 11/21/2008 10:07:21 AM

thetammyjo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

Is my target audience men? Again, I don't know because if porn is written for men then I don't write in that fashion -- too much focus on emotions and relationship and plot not enough on size and sexual acts.

Shame. It's exactly those emotions (and thought processes) that I'd want to read about. Most of all, I'd be fascinated by 'what makes dominas tick'. I can, and probably already have, imagined most of the physical acts that people do. It's the feelings, particularly those of a dominant woman, that I can't. But I know full well that the educational books don't yield huge royalties . . .

I've heard from many men that they like my work, a lot of gay men in fact. Let me honest though that usually I split point of view so you get both sides or I folks on the sub.

I know what I think, it's more of a fantasy I'm writing so I'm more likely to focus on what the sub/slave maybe feeling or thinking rather than the dom. So if point of view isn't split, it's from the sub side.

Just FYI: Very few books make good money for authors.

I'm approaching year two since "Servants of Destiny" came out and still not book sells report or it or the 6th book from that publisher. I won't be publishing with them again. I will be talking to a lawyer next week. All very sad because I think we in the Scene should treat each other better than the average business.

I know that was off-topic here but I'm really pissed off and it is affecting the progress I make on book 8. Book 7 comes out with another publisher spring 2009.

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 11/21/2008 10:10:06 AM >

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Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

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And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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Post #: 36

RE: Femdom porn for women... - 11/21/2008 10:20:28 AM

PeonForHer

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Just FYI: Very few books make good money for authors.

Oh I know, TTJ. You can boil your brains out over many years doing a PhD thesis, then make just a couple of thousand quid in royalties on a book derived from that thesis. I know so many academics who've done that, and been sorely disappointed afterwards.

I know what I think, it's more of a fantasy I'm writing so I'm more likely to focus on what the sub/slave maybe feeling or thinking rather than the dom. So if point of view isn't split, it's from the sub side.

What an irony! As a reader who's a sub, I want to know what the domina thinks. I already know what the sub would think.

I've been thinking - quite a lot, recently - that one quite interesting idea would be exactly the same story written by two sides, as a collaboration. Her version of the events and how she feels about them, followed by his version, and how he feels about those same events.

Apart from being a lot of fun, that might just mop up all of the market, as well.

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Post #: 37

RE: Femdom porn for women... - 11/21/2008 12:27:46 PM

AAkasha

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Joined: 11/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Just FYI: Very few books make good money for authors.

Oh I know, TTJ. You can boil your brains out over many years doing a PhD thesis, then make just a couple of thousand quid in royalties on a book derived from that thesis. I know so many academics who've done that, and been sorely disappointed afterwards.

I know what I think, it's more of a fantasy I'm writing so I'm more likely to focus on what the sub/slave maybe feeling or thinking rather than the dom. So if point of view isn't split, it's from the sub side.

What an irony! As a reader who's a sub, I want to know what the domina thinks. I already know what the sub would think.

I've been thinking - quite a lot, recently - that one quite interesting idea would be exactly the same story written by two sides, as a collaboration. Her version of the events and how she feels about them, followed by his version, and how he feels about those same events.

Apart from being a lot of fun, that might just mop up all of the market, as well.

Over the last many years I've written a ton of femdom stuff that's purely from the femdom POV, some of the earlier stuff almost straight autobiographical, unedited from personal journals. The initial feedback I got from men (this was in the mid 90s) was that the femdom characters (ie me) were too weak and vulnerable. A femdom - crying? Fear? Nervousness at the prospect that a man might think she's a bit odd for wanting to tie him up? Hello, welcome to the real world! It was a bit sad, but the feedback from women was great, so I kept at it. Nowadays I keep a healthy mix of "candy" (straight smut - fun, easy to write, mostly visual, lots of button pushing) with pieces that are a mix and a little more mature emotionally.

Akasha

_____________________________

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Post #: 38

RE: Femdom porn for women... - 11/21/2008 12:40:04 PM

ShaktiSama

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

Here's the weird thing for me: When I write my target audience is me.

The approach has its merits. It is, after all, the only audience you can reliably please. And more importantly--to bring this back somewhat to the earlier point which was about erotic art in other media--art that is deliberately pandering to others is very seldom a gift to the world.

Art that is honest always is.

quote:

So is my target audience women? Doubtful, I'm currently reviewing this book that is supposed to be geared toward women to help them sort out their own best strategies for life and I can't relate at all to about 20% of it. So I'm clearly not every woman.

Is my target audience men? Again, I don't know because if porn is written for men then I don't write in that fashion -- too much focus on emotions and relationship and plot not enough on size and sexual acts.

The only thing I would say about these distinctions is...that the audience is often at least partially constructed by the art. Your work is for both men and women--the men and women who can appreciate and identify with it.

I honestly believe that these prescriptive ideas about "what men want/like to see" and "what women like/want to see" have gone beyond the land of self-fulfilling prophecies and headed straight into the realm of heavily policed, oppressively insistent stereotypes. These ideas are a huge part of the problem.

quote:

But then I'm not wealthy doing this, am I?

Seems to be a secondary consideration in your case. :)

quote:

With most porn the focus isn't on men or women either. It's on making money. A lot of money with the least amount of investment.

*nods* True enough, which is why risks have to be taken by the artist herself in many cases.

_____________________________

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 39

RE: Femdom porn for women... - 11/21/2008 1:35:12 PM

Lockit

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I have tried to put a bit of the dominant and the submissive's feelings into what I write. A lot of the feedback I get is from submissive's unless I am writing a male dominant/female submissive story and then too, it is often the submissive's that make similar comments. The male dom's have their comments lol... but I consider them far different than what I wish to focus on. (edited to add... most male dom's tend to want to make me submissive so they can play with my energy or kinky sex they read coming from me.)

I will show the human side of a dominant and will always add emotion. That has been the most common thread in the comments I have gotten. That they love how I bring all those dynamic's into things. Most who wait for new stories tend to go for the emotional side of things leading to something more and I'm glad because I am not changing how I do things for the most part. I don't care if I am never published in certain ways or make big bucks. I do this for me.

When I decided to experiement with things and try writing soft porn, I was determined to create something that men and women would like because I was running into so many men that wanted to watch porn with their spouse and because it was all male oriented, the women were turned off. I also wanted something I could enjoy out there and wanted more than pump and grind with the guy's fantasy being catered to and leaving women as if they were just a warm, wet spot to use.

I found that men, vanilla, whatever in personality and dominant or submissive, liked what I wrote and actually enjoyed the emotions I put into it all. I do believe there is a market for the better porn.

< Message edited by Lockit -- 11/21/2008 1:39:58 PM >

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No matter how old a woman gets, some men will think she was born yesterday! ROFL... I love this place!

(in reply to ShaktiSama)

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