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RE: Sarah Palin 451 - 9/3/2008 1:38:19 PM   
dcnovice


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<fast reply>

Found a link to a Time story.

Stein says that as mayor, Palin continued to inject religious beliefs into her policy at times. "She asked the library how she could go about banning books," he says, because some voters thought they had inappropriate language in them. "The librarian was aghast." That woman, Mary Ellen Baker, couldn't be reached for comment, but news reports from the time show that Palin had threatened to fire Baker for not giving "full support" to the mayor.


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RE: Sarah Palin 451 - 9/3/2008 1:41:59 PM   
slvemike4u


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So only exploring "the possibility of banning some books" is okay with you subrob...got to tell you,as someone who would rather spend an afternoon walking around a book store than most other pursuits,that scares the shit out of me....not to mention firing the librarian who opposed this nonsense!!!!

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RE: Sarah Palin 451 - 9/3/2008 1:47:18 PM   
Vendaval


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Thank you for the link, dc.

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RE: Sarah Palin 451 - 9/3/2008 1:48:11 PM   
dcnovice


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Glad I could help. It's the closest I'll ever get to being a service submissive.

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it's never enough to keep up.

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RE: Sarah Palin 451 - 9/3/2008 1:48:26 PM   
DS4DUMMIES


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Then, I repeat Cyberdude's point in the thread above yours. "Politically correct" speech is every bit as much the work of "thought police" as what is alleged about Palin. Whether from the left or the right -  BOTH are EQUALLY as guilty of it.....and if you want proof of it, the media goes FAR out of its' way to avoid using certain terms, descriptions, and phrases to meet "politically correct" standards than they do other forms of restraint.

Yes, there must be a level of civility in all we do. We do have to protect kids from things they ought not be exposed to at their age. Yes we do have to have some manner of common decency in what we expose people to in places where they cannot help but see it.....but the idea that the left is not every bit as repressive with regard to free speech as they accuse the right of being, is absolutely ludicrous. It is the pot calling the kettle black.
No...wait...we can't say that......someone might infer "black" to be some sort of racial equivocation. Never mind that at the time the saying was born, all pots and kettles were made of black cast iron.....


quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier

bipolarber,

First, This wins the trophy for best thread titile by a mile.
Do you think Palin would get it? I have my doubts.

Anything even remotely tending towards the thought police
sets off my alarms. People who want to control your access to
thoughts have no real faith in the power of their own in the arena of ideas.

But since they are "right" it is perfectly alright to use force to make sure
the "correct" ideas win.  Sometimes, God even demands it of them.
Sometimes, they just do it for the benefit of the "people" or the "state".

Outlier





< Message edited by DS4DUMMIES -- 9/3/2008 1:51:28 PM >


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RE: Sarah Palin 451 - 9/3/2008 1:57:50 PM   
DS4DUMMIES


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Like the Democrats have a long track record supporting the first amendment?

Ever hear of political correctness? You want religion banned everywhere outside a church because someone might find it offensive. And the only political speech you think should be free is of your own.

Support freedom of the press? Remember the fairness doctrine that Nancy Pelosi wants put back in place?

Liberals support the first amendment....give me a break.....


...even if everything you have typed is true, you haven't addressed the substantive point in the OP. You have a perfect right to start a thread regarding what you see as Democrats and the first amendment, but all you're doing here is attempting to deflect attention away from what is a perfectly valid act of scrutiny.
If, as the OP suggests, Sarah Palin really did try to have books banned from that library that is a scandal. Bleating on about how bad others may or may not be in no way excuses such an action from a potential US VP.


So.....it's not a valid rebuttal to offer that the brush she is being tarred with, may be equally wielded  against those who would criticize her? I was always taught in classes on debating, that it was perfectly valid to point out such things (re: things disingenuous) as long as they were relevant to the topic.

< Message edited by DS4DUMMIES -- 9/3/2008 1:58:24 PM >


_____________________________

"When we walk to the edge of all the light we have and take the step into the darkness of the unknown, we must believe that one of two things will happen. There will be something solid for us to stand on or we will be taught to fly.” Patrick Overton

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RE: Sarah Palin 451 - 9/3/2008 2:03:07 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DS4DUMMIES
So.....it's not a valid rebuttal to offer that the brush she is being tarred with, may be equally wielded  against those who would criticize her? I was always taught in classes on debating, that it was perfectly valid to point out such things (re: things disingenuous) as long as they were relevant to the topic.

No it's not.

I criticize anyone who wants to ban or censor anything. Talk all you want about anything. Expect me to make fun of the stupid and bigoted stuff and to point out the lies but you can keep right on talking as far as I'm concerned.

What Palin tried is repugnant and is, IMO, instantly disqualifying for consideration for higher office.

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RE: Sarah Palin 451 - 9/3/2008 2:05:27 PM   
Vendaval


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Site your sources for the claims you make.

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great day, I will tease you all the same."
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RE: Sarah Palin 451 - 9/3/2008 2:11:39 PM   
DS4DUMMIES


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DS4DUMMIES

Then, I repeat Cyberdude's point in the thread above yours. "Politically correct" speech is every bit as much the work of "thought police" as what is alleged about Palin. Whether from the left or the right -  BOTH are EQUALLY as guilty of it.....and if you want proof of it, the media goes FAR out of its' way to avoid using certain terms, descriptions, and phrases to meet "politically correct" standards than they do other forms of restraint.

Yes, there must be a level of civility in all we do. We do have to protect kids from things they ought not be exposed to at their age. Yes we do have to have some manner of common decency in what we expose people to in places where they cannot help but see it.....but the idea that the left is not every bit as repressive with regard to free speech as they accuse the right of being, is absolutely ludicrous. It is the pot calling the kettle black.
No...wait...we can't say that......someone might infer "black" to be some sort of racial equivocation. Never mind that at the time the saying was born, all pots and kettles were made of black cast iron.....


quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier

bipolarber,

First, This wins the trophy for best thread titile by a mile.
Do you think Palin would get it? I have my doubts.

Anything even remotely tending towards the thought police
sets off my alarms. People who want to control your access to
thoughts have no real faith in the power of their own in the arena of ideas.

But since they are "right" it is perfectly alright to use force to make sure
the "correct" ideas win.  Sometimes, God even demands it of them.
Sometimes, they just do it for the benefit of the "people" or the "state".

Outlier






Here are some books banned in recent history....by people on both sides of the ledger...some from the left...some from the right.....the link to the story is....
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HST/is_5_5/ai_108312742

Bnet is a respected site.

A HERO AIN'T NOTHIN' BUT A SANDWICH
by Alice Childress:
Removed from the Savannah, Ga. school libraries (1978) due to "objectionable' language. Challenged at the Aberdeen High School in Bel Air, Md. (1994) because the novel was deemed "racist and vulgar."

A LESSON BEFORE DYING
by Ernest Gaines:
Banned, but later reinstated after community protest at the windsor Forest High School in Savannah, Ga. (2000). The controversy began in early 1999 when a parent complained about sex, violence and profanity in the book that was part of an advanced placement English class.

THE AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF MALCOLM X
by Malcolm X and Alex Haley:
Restricted at Jacksonville, Fla., middle school libraries (1994) as presenting a racist view of white people and a "how-to manual" for crime.

THE AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF MISS JANE PITTMAN
by Ernest Gaines:
Pulled from a seventh-grade class in Conroe, Texas (1995) after complaints about racial slurs in the book.

BELOVED
by Toni Morrison:
Challenged by a member of the Madawaska, Maine, School Committee (1997) because of the book's language. The 1987 Pulitzer Prize-winning novel has been required reading for the advanced placement English class for six years.

THE BEST SHORT STORIES BY NEGRO WRITERS
by Langston Hughes:
Removed from the Island Trees, N.Y., Union Free District High School library in 1976, along with nine other titles, because they were considered "immoral, anti-American, anti-Christian, or just plain filthy."

BLACK BOY
by Richard Wright:
Challenged in the Jacksonville, Fla., public schools (1997) by a minister who said the book contained "profanity and may spark hard feelings between students of different races."

THE BLUEST EYE
by Toni Morrison:
Removed from the reading lists for ninth and tenth-graders at Stevens High School in Claremont, N.H. (1999) because of a parent's complaint about the book's sexual content. Banned from the Morrisville, Pa., Borough high school English curriculum (1994) after complaints about its sexual content and objectionable language.

THE COLOR PURPLE
by Alice Walker:
Challenged as an appropriate reading for an Oakland, Calif., high ,school honors class (1984) for "sexual and ,social explicitness" and "troubling ideas about race relations, man's relationship to God, African history, and human sexuality." Banned in the Souderton, Pa., Area School District (1992) as appropriate reading for tenth graders because it was considered "smut."

GO TELL IT ON THE MOUNTAIN
by James Baldwin:
Challenged as a ninth-grade summer reading option in Prince William County, Va., (1998) because the book "was rife with profanity and explicit sex."

I KNOW WHY THE CAGED BIRD SINGS
by Maya Angelou:
Four members of the Alabama State Textbook Committee (1983) called for its rejection because they said Angelou's work preaches "bitterness and hatred against whites." Removed from the curriculum pending a review of its content at the Gilbert, Ariz., Unified School (1995). Complaining parents said the book did not represent "traditional values." Challenged on the Poolesville High School, Md., (2000) reading list for sexual content and language.

JUBILEE
by Margaret Walker:
Challenged in the Greenville. S.C. County school libraries (1977) by the Titan of the Fourth Province of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan because the novel produces "racial strife and hatred."

I wonder...how many white Masters....in the BDSM community....who own black female slaves, or black Masters with white female slaves, would have been welcome to display their loved ones on a leash...at either the Republican OR Democratic National Conventions?  Wait.....do I hear people saying we should not refer to slaves in this manner?  Truth is, that what we do in this manner of relationship could be easily attacked by both sides of the ledger....we are all potentially "banned books".

Here is politcal correctness at work...by the ACLU....disguised as seperation of church and state....in one arena, the public display of Christmas Nativity displays by public agencies or towns or other government groups....

http://www.ca3.uscourts.gov/opinarch/985021.txt

http://www.telegram.com/article/20071221/NEWS/712210669/1008/NEWS02

It should be noted that the Supreme Court, in ruling on this very issue, said the following: "...religious expression cannot violate the Establishment clause where it is private or occurs in a traditionally or designated public forum and is open to all on equal terms". The Court went on to say "It is constitutional that Nativity scenes or other religious symbols on property that is considered to be open for the use of the public such as public squares where other displays, are permitted.

In other words, if someone wants to put up a symbol of another faith on public property, that too must be allowed. Personally, I do not find Nativity scenes, Kwanza scenes, manorahs, or anyhting else offensive. but....these cites are but a few of hundreds you can pull up with simple Google searches.

.......just backing up my contentions....



< Message edited by DS4DUMMIES -- 9/3/2008 2:30:46 PM >


_____________________________

"When we walk to the edge of all the light we have and take the step into the darkness of the unknown, we must believe that one of two things will happen. There will be something solid for us to stand on or we will be taught to fly.” Patrick Overton

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RE: Sarah Palin 451 - 9/3/2008 2:16:18 PM   
Thadius


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Don't forget this one...
http://ctroadrunner.wordpress.com/2008/01/10/classic-book-huck-finn-banned-in-manchester/ 

When did Conneticut become a Republican stronghold?

Oh and here is a list of the top 100 books banned...
http://www.ala.org/ala/oif/bannedbooksweek/bbwlinks/100mostfrequently.cfm

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RE: Sarah Palin 451 - 9/3/2008 2:27:26 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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A school library is now equivalent to a public library? Okey-doke.

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RE: Sarah Palin 451 - 9/3/2008 2:32:00 PM   
Vendaval


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Can you specify which books were banned by which groups?  Do you have the links?

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

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RE: Sarah Palin 451 - 9/3/2008 2:35:50 PM   
outlier


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DS4D,

I don't understand your responce to my post.  I said I don't
like the "thought police" no matter what side they are on.  If
it is the Taliban or the Cristian Taliban in this country, I don't
like it.  If it is Mao doing it for the "people" or Stalin doing it
for the "state", I don't like it.  When the Pope does it, I don't like it.

When Ferraro made what I thought was a correct observation,
that Obama was winning the nomination because of the black vote.
The Obama camp screamed racism.  I thought it was their outrage
was disingenuous at best.

When Reverand Wright stood in front of The Washington Press Club
and said that he as an ex marine (I think he said marine) had as much
right to criticize this country as people who avoided service, I believe he
was correct.  And when he was booed for saying it I think it showed the
"myth" of the liberal media, which is a right wing invention dating back to
Agnew at least.

If you want me to run a list of hypocrisy I can accommodate you.  But
if you are for one side or the other you had better be prepared to read
things you don't like.

Outlier 


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RE: Sarah Palin 451 - 9/3/2008 2:39:26 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DS4DUMMIES

So.....it's not a valid rebuttal to offer that the brush she is being tarred with, may be equally wielded  against those who would criticize her? I was always taught in classes on debating, that it was perfectly valid to point out such things (re: things disingenuous) as long as they were relevant to the topic.


..ok, let's assume as a thought experiment that instead of Mrs Palin being accused of attempting to ban books, we're talking about an Democratic party worker taking drugs. If i apply Sanity's answer to my thought experiment, then you are suggesting that a perfectly acceptable response to that accusation is to merely reply that Republicans take drugs too. As a rebuttal it's not particulary effective, not least because it doesn't address the original allegation. In my thought experiment both parties are in the wrong. Both parties are equally open to censure.
You appear to be suggesting that we ought to give a pass to both parties.

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RE: Sarah Palin 451 - 9/3/2008 2:41:14 PM   
Vendaval


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Looking through the list of banned books, most of the choices are terribly predictable about what authors and books have caused the most controversy over the years.  I am not in favor of censorship on either side of the political divide. 
 
The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark Twain can be discussed in its historical context and the use of language at the time.
 
The Anarchist Cookbook by William Powell certainly gets people up in arms.  Not the sort of tome one should take along for a ride on commercial aircraft.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

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RE: Sarah Palin 451 - 9/3/2008 2:43:33 PM   
Thadius


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My issue with labeling her as a "book burner" is even in the article provided, it suggest that she stated these talks were "rhetorical".  Just as I am willing to be held accountable to my words posted here and various other venues, should I be lumped in with everybody that posts here or there, because of rhetorical discussions?

I am sure that if and when I ever choose to run for elected office, all of these things will be dug through and presented in the worst light possible.

C'est la vie,
Thadius

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RE: Sarah Palin 451 - 9/3/2008 2:45:18 PM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Like the Democrats have a long track record supporting the first amendment?

Ever hear of political correctness? You want religion banned everywhere outside a church because someone might find it offensive. And the only political speech you think should be free is of your own.

Support freedom of the press? Remember the fairness doctrine that Nancy Pelosi wants put back in place?

Liberals support the first amendment....give me a break.....


It sounds like you're pretty much in agreement with most others. It's not okay to ban books no matter who you are .. or, am I reading you wrong?

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RE: Sarah Palin 451 - 9/3/2008 2:47:41 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

My issue with labeling her as a "book burner" is even in the article provided, it suggest that she stated these talks were "rhetorical".


I wouldn't label her a "book burner," since she wasn't burning books.

But I'm honestly unsure of what "rhetorical" means in this context, especially since she went on to fire the librarian.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Sarah Palin 451 - 9/3/2008 2:59:54 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DS4DUMMIES
Here is politcal correctness at work...by the ACLU....disguised as seperation of church and state....in one arena, the public display of Christmas Nativity displays by public agencies or towns or other government groups....

http://www.ca3.uscourts.gov/opinarch/985021.txt

http://www.telegram.com/article/20071221/NEWS/712210669/1008/NEWS02

It should be noted that the Supreme Court, in ruling on this very issue, said the following: "...religious expression cannot violate the Establishment clause where it is private or occurs in a traditionally or designated public forum and is open to all on equal terms". The Court went on to say "It is constitutional that Nativity scenes or other religious symbols on property that is considered to be open for the use of the public such as public squares where other displays, are permitted.

That's not political correctness that was a legitimate point of dispute over Church State seperation, the other part of the first ammendment that you seem to have forgotten.

Furthermore your quotes that are supposedly from a SCOTUS decision don't come from any nativity case ruling I can find and I just went through all of them. A further search finds that the only place those phrases, in all the pages indexed by google and all the cases in findlaw, appear is in a free republic blog post.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1933812/posts

Unless a ruling very recently came out, unlikely since the SCOTUS isn't in session, the present state of affairs is that a nativity or other religious display is permissable on public property, like a park, but not on the property of a government facility, like city hall, and is only permissable if it includes symbols of other faiths just as prominently displayed.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 9/3/2008 3:00:23 PM >

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RE: Sarah Palin 451 - 9/3/2008 3:20:24 PM   
thornhappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Like the Democrats have a long track record supporting the first amendment?
You want religion banned everywhere outside a church because someone might find it offensive.

It's institutional prayer folks are against.  You can preach at the intersections (popular in San Diego), can preach on your front lawn, can preach in front of grocery stores (at least in San Diego), you can have student-led Bible studies at school.  The line is drawn at institutional-led prayer.

thornhappy

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