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B.C. Tours - 11/26/2005 2:53:50 PM   
anthrosub


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Joined: 6/2/2004
Status: offline 		I was watching CNN last night and saw a piece covering what I consider to be the most ignorant act imaginable regarding the whole evolution vs. creationism controversy. There's a group in Colorado that actually offers "tours" to the local zoo and museum of natural history where the goal is to debunk science and give an alternate explanation for everything on display using the bible.

At one point, the group was at the zoo and the guide was telling the group, "Science would have us believe that an elephant can become a hippopatumus." He went on to say we all know that elephants have always been elephants and hippos have always been hippos and so on. Next, was a visit to the museum where the guide (accompanied by the museum currator) showed everyone an evolutionary chart and stated that the spaces (i.e., nothing) between each animal on the chart was the proof scientists have of evolution. Regarding dinosaurs he said, "These are just collections of bones and bones are boring." He also discussed that the world is in fact, only 6000 years old and this has been proven by geneologists studying the family tree in the bible starting with Adam and Eve.

The currator finally had to excuse himself as his anger was becoming too difficult to suppress. He later told the CNN crew he was angry because the stuff he was hearing was being told to children. I also found myself rather upset at seeing this taking place. These people have no right to shanghai the minds of young people before they have fully developed their reasoning skills.

I found it interesting that the guide at one point said to the CNN crew that people have two choices...they can either trust the word of man or the word of God. Funny, he seems to conveniently overlook the fact that the "word of God" is the bible (written by man). Of course, he also overlooks just about everything else that could easily challenge his claim. For example, the family tree...first Adam and Eve, then Cain and Abel. Abel kills Cain and then somehow out of the blue ends up with a wife (where did she come from?). Are we to believe we are all the result of inbreeding? What about the many ethnic groups in the world (asian, african, aborigine, native american, inuit, caucasian, indian, etc.)? Move away from evolution completely and take a simple look at the geologic processes in evidence all over the earth. There's a world of information that shows how old the earth is (never mind the universe).

In spite of myself, I find it incredible that people can continue to be so ignorant of their own existence.

anthrosub

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"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

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RE: B.C. Tours - 11/26/2005 3:05:21 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Just as many *feel* the One true LIFESYLE all is hallowed bullshit, alotta people cling to the fairytale of christianity as the one true and hallowed reality, people just have to have something to *believe* in that transcends experience. I used to take LSD for the same reasons and pretty much with the same results.

Now, I transcend by having a good cup of coffee and a cigarette in the morning...

The people who are hip to the one true wisdom just gotta push the agenda to the great unwashed.

Story of life.

Ron

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RE: B.C. Tours - 11/26/2005 4:16:59 PM   
anthrosub


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Status: offline 		You reminded me of something I forget to include in the original post. Namely, the enormous gap between what we "believe" and what we "know" and how so many people confuse the two as being one in the same thing. For example, confusing belief with theory. The beauty of theory is it's a work in progress whereas a belief is essentially stagnate.

So many times I read counter-arguments based on belief alone which has nothing to do with experiences and the theories developed from having them. Granted many of these same people haven't had the experiences that might give them pause to consider something more plausible and unfortunately they usually aren't prone to go out and look for any (claiming that would be blasphemy).

anthrosub

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RE: B.C. Tours - 11/26/2005 4:55:18 PM   
slavejali


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Status: offline 		anthrosub: i will refrain from the religious discussion, but your talk about belief did make me think of one thing....i dont think we do anything without a belief..like i wouldnt even go down to the supermarket for oranges unless i believed they had them in stock *grin* so it has its place...i can hear your point though, some people take on a belief in something through lack of intelligence or being misdirected or through lack of education or exposure to other alternatives...this can make them very closed minded.

Everyone also likes to think they *know* something..it makes them feel important..i kinda like to carry this saying with me "i dont know ..but..i will find out!" grin hehe

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RE: B.C. Tours - 11/26/2005 5:18:28 PM   
darkinshadows


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anthro
You know my stand. And I do appriciate your point of view. But I think it is awful to say others are ignorant of their own exisitance just because you cannot understand their concept of faith. I understand that your perception is based on your experience of faith followers - but they do not stand for all, and they do not believe purely on the things you say they do.
It is difficult for those people to respond, because they are not here to do it... it's all based on your own perception.

Faith is a very deep and personal concept.
Whilst your personal thought on such matters counts, and their opinion is just as valid as yours, and in all things - there will be those who are blind to the opinion of others. You are only doing the same as you accuse them of.

I understand your anger, but the person mentioned, if not here to discuss their belief. It makes the discussion rather onesided. We all know how one sided the 'freepress' can be. Do you believe all you read and all you see? How very biblical...

Peace and Love

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RE: B.C. Tours - 11/26/2005 9:46:38 PM   
anthrosub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

anthrosub: i will refrain from the religious discussion, but your talk about belief did make me think of one thing....i dont think we do anything without a belief..like i wouldnt even go down to the supermarket for oranges unless i believed they had them in stock *grin* so it has its place...i can hear your point though, some people take on a belief in something through lack of intelligence or being misdirected or through lack of education or exposure to other alternatives...this can make them very closed minded.

Everyone also likes to think they *know* something..it makes them feel important..i kinda like to carry this saying with me "i dont know ..but..i will find out!" grin hehe


Thanks for your feedback. I always appreciate hearing support in words different from my own. Keeping the implications regarding certain religions aside, you did read me correctly. Your analogy about the supermarket I would take as a good example of having faith. You don't "know" if there will be any but you go anyway. To me that is faith. Belief on the other hand is something you "need" in order to do something. So in your case you need to believe there will be oranges to go to the supermarket. Do you agree? I've always found there's a fine line between the two words.

anthrosub

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RE: B.C. Tours - 11/26/2005 10:08:47 PM   
anthrosub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkangel

anthro
You know my stand. And I do appriciate your point of view. But I think it is awful to say others are ignorant of their own exisitance just because you cannot understand their concept of faith. I understand that your perception is based on your experience of faith followers - but they do not stand for all, and they do not believe purely on the things you say they do.
It is difficult for those people to respond, because they are not here to do it... it's all based on your own perception.

Faith is a very deep and personal concept.
Whilst your personal thought on such matters counts, and their opinion is just as valid as yours, and in all things - there will be those who are blind to the opinion of others. You are only doing the same as you accuse them of.

I understand your anger, but the person mentioned, if not here to discuss their belief. It makes the discussion rather onesided. We all know how one sided the 'freepress' can be. Do you believe all you read and all you see? How very biblical...

Peace and Love


Hi dark~angel,
Well, you did manage once again to read things into what I said that are not necessarily there. People are ignorant of their existence. That's a tough pill to swallow but it's there just the same. Where does my understanding their concept of faith come into that?

I do realize not everyone is as stupid as these people are. I was talking about the people giving the tour and others like them. I'm not sure why you always take my words as applying to the entire Christian community and then accuse me of generalizing. The whole thing starts and ends in your own mind (can you see that?).

My stand (what you call my opinion) is not based on what I "think" and it's far from an opinion in the correct use of the word. It's based on what I can see, touch, smell, taste, and hear. It's based on something I didn't read that was written by someone else (known or unknown) today or 3000 years ago. It's not true just because someone told me to believe it or I'll go to hell (or "just because").

In this instance, I saw the people speaking on video tape. Their voice, their words...so again, it's not a question of believing what I read. What they said didn't need any interpretation.

Oh by the way, in my original post there's an error. I know that Cain killed Abel (not the other way around). Collarme doesn't allow you to edit your own posts after a certain amount of time or else I would have fixed the juxtaposition.

Thanks for understanding my anger and in the future, please try not to react to your own interpretation of my motives. It saves me from having to correct your accusations.

anthrosub

< Message edited by anthrosub -- 11/26/2005 10:25:47 PM >

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

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RE: B.C. Tours - 11/27/2005 7:32:06 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

In this instance, I saw the people speaking on video tape. Their voice, their words...so again, it's not a question of believing what I read. What they said didn't need any interpretation.

Well, it could easily be their words manipulated and edited so I would not place much stock in such without personally speaking with such a person first myself... Its akin to watching someones 'words' posted here without knowing the person, is it not?

As for accusations, they are not accusation, they are interpretations.

Why do I see it as a attack on the christian community? I didn't. I don't see how You came to that 'accusation'?... Again, it isnt your accusation, as I see it as an assumption. In fact, nowhere in my initial response did I use the word christian.

I said faith - big difference. Faith will encompas the whole variety of belief. From Christian, to buddist, to catholic, to hindu, to evolutionism or darwinism. And yes, I see all as faith rather than proof - even for those who believe in the big bang - because its all based on theory. Its undeniable that evolution exists - it happens every day - and as much as I advocate protection of a species I believe it is also obvious that animals and creatures will die out because they have to - to make way for the next evolution.... but not one person can prove scientifically where man comes from, nor who evolves from whom... not without the missing links and the very close associations.

You do not have to be defensive anthro. All I said was that I didn't think it was respectful to offer over such a view without someone from the belief system you are dismissing to answer back. It just leads to one sided discussion.

Peace and Love

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...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: B.C. Tours - 11/27/2005 9:30:50 AM   
anthrosub


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Status: offline 		I seriously doubt a news organization such as CNN would tape someone speaking and then manipulate their words to suit the story being presented. Besides that, the sentences spoken by the tour guide were simple and direct leaving nothing unclear as to what he meant. But I'm sure you will continue to use his absence in our discussion to avoid talking about his statements. Fine.

I don't have faith in evolution. The word doesn't apply there. When I touch a hot stove, I don't need faith to know I just burned my hand. Faith is something one has regardless of the facts, not because of them.

Why do you continue to refer to a theory as a faith? They are simply not the same thing. Theories are based on empirical evidence. Faith has nothing to do with empirical evidence. You can have faith in God but you don't have faith in evolution.

Would you introduce faith in a court during a trial? People are prosecuted based on evidence and then a group of jurors weigh the evidence and make a judgement. They don't use faith to try a person in court, they use information (often piecemeal just like in science and sometimes incorrect also just like in science). Are we supposed to withhold judgement until every last piece of information has been found? No. We wait until we have enough to convict or acquit. If new information becomes available, we change the judgment. The same thing takes place in science. But in science, a final judgement is never made because scientists know there will eventually be more information to look at.

Do you have faith in Santa Claus? I doubt it. Why? Because you know it's a myth. Do you have faith in Zeus? Probably not, but if you could go back in time to ancient Greece, you'd be hard pressed to find people who didn't. Today western cultures don't put a lot of stock in multiple Gods but there are still places where people do. Who's right? Who's wrong? None of them will say it's them.

anthrosub

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

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RE: B.C. Tours - 11/27/2005 10:04:36 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		OK, once more unto the breech, Dear Friends!

I seriously doubt a news organization such as CNN would tape someone speaking and then manipulate their words to suit the story being presented.

I don't have that doubt in the least. That is neither here nor there.

I don't have faith in evolution. The word doesn't apply there. When I touch a hot stove, I don't need faith to know I just burned my hand.

The two concepts are in no wise equivalent.

Faith is something one has regardless of the facts, not because of them.

Why do you continue to refer to a theory as a faith?
They are simply not the same thing.
Theories are based on empirical evidence.
Faith has nothing to do with empirical evidence.

This is not wholly and unmistakably true.

I stick my hand on the stove, every time I do it, I get burned.
If I stick my hand on the stove tomorrow I will be burned, same as always.
Fact and faith. And it don't make it true.

You can have faith in God but you don't have faith in evolution.
Of course, you can. Theory requires that you have faith in it beyond empirical evidence......otherwise there is no exigent theory.

Would you introduce faith in a court during a trial? People are prosecuted based on evidence and then a group of jurors weigh the evidence and make a judgement.

Pure unadulterated bullshit. (I actually find this ironic and profusely hilarious because that was part and parcel of the first thing dark~angel ever said to me, and I quote "Bullshit!"

Faith and theory is the trial. Otherwise, no need for the mouthpiece, look it up in the book. Law is Monty Hall, whos got a coathanger, let's make a deal.

They don't use faith to try a person in court, they use information (often piecemeal just like in science and sometimes incorrect also just like in science).

Not at all true, they use adversarial argument.

The prosecution finds everything you do in the dimmest and most heinious light and the defense finds everything you do in the most benevolent, or confused or humanistic foibles that can be attributed to light. But always with good intent.


Are we supposed to withhold judgement until every last piece of information has been found? No. We wait until we have enough to convict or acquit.

Absolute aggreement, I convict Christianity and the theory of evolution.

If new information becomes available, we change the judgment.

OK, I am with you.

The same thing takes place in science. But in science, a final judgement is never made because scientists know there will eventually be more information to look at.

They have the leisure, not a matter of eating to survive or doing anything.
The Calculus, by its very definition says you cannot cross a room, because of the infintessimal measurement approaching 1/0, but never there. But guess what, it is a model that works for us now and today. Nothing will say that it works tomorrow.

Today western cultures don't put a lot of stock in multiple Gods but there are still places where people do. Who's right? Who's wrong? None of them will say it's them.

This is simplistic, I believe in Odin the one eyed, God of confusion and war, and one of many. Why? because it is a theory I have and a fact based on empirical evidence I see......Hug a tree......everone else is wrong that considers Y'shua Ha' Notz'ri (joshua (not Jesus for christs sake)) other than a mediocre rabbi as historically recorded.


Seems to me that it's alotta prattle about the theory and fact and faith thing. Strong feelings (which I really don't have, believe it or not). Well, there's enough here to start a war with everybody.

Laughing Maniacally,
Ron


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: B.C. Tours - 11/27/2005 10:23:27 AM   
FangsNfeet


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Status: offline 		The same place was also on Penn & Tellers Bull Shit in season one where the term "Divine Creation" is invented as a scientific term for religion and the creation of life.

God may exist but there's no way the earth and human race could only be around 8000 years old. Why do so many religious folk continue to think that it's not possible to misunderstand a message from God or that misinterpritaion is possible? I remember a patient who had a Family Tree which took her leniege all the way back to Adam and Eve. As an employee I only said "That's nice." Thinking to myself I thought "Is this person Jewish? Who were Adam and Eves Grandkids? How many years and generations can that be? I wonder if the same company could do the same for me?" After all, her family tree books came in two parts both as thick as an encylopedia.

Oh well, it's all a baffle.

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RE: B.C. Tours - 11/27/2005 1:13:07 PM   
darkinshadows


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Ron, I lurve your posts more and more each day!
Big smoochies of admiration to you.

Peace and Rapture

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RE: B.C. Tours - 11/27/2005 2:18:44 PM   
anthrosub


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Status: offline 		Are we having fun yet?

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

OK, once more unto the breech, Dear Friends!

I seriously doubt a news organization such as CNN would tape someone speaking and then manipulate their words to suit the story being presented.

I don't have that doubt in the least. That is neither here nor there.


Perhaps not but it does seem to be part of dark~angel's argument. Take it or leave it.

quote:


I don't have faith in evolution. The word doesn't apply there. When I touch a hot stove, I don't need faith to know I just burned my hand.

The two concepts are in no wise equivalent.


"No wise? Not sure what that's supposed to mean but if you're saying they are one in the same. I think I understand what you mean. Maybe the word should be "trust" or "confidence."

quote:

Faith is something one has regardless of the facts, not because of them.

Why do you continue to refer to a theory as a faith?
They are simply not the same thing.
Theories are based on empirical evidence.
Faith has nothing to do with empirical evidence.

This is not wholly and unmistakably true.


Perhaps but it's pretty close.

quote:

I stick my hand on the stove, every time I do it, I get burned.
If I stick my hand on the stove tomorrow I will be burned, same as always.
Fact and faith. And it don't make it true.

You can have faith in God but you don't have faith in evolution.
Of course, you can. Theory requires that you have faith in it beyond empirical evidence......otherwise there is no exigent theory.


See "trust" and "confidence" above. I basically agree with this.

quote:

Would you introduce faith in a court during a trial? People are prosecuted based on evidence and then a group of jurors weigh the evidence and make a judgement.

Pure unadulterated bullshit. (I actually find this ironic and profusely hilarious because that was part and parcel of the first thing dark~angel ever said to me, and I quote "Bullshit!"

Faith and theory is the trial. Otherwise, no need for the mouthpiece, look it up in the book. Law is Monty Hall, whos got a coathanger, let's make a deal.

They don't use faith to try a person in court, they use information (often piecemeal just like in science and sometimes incorrect also just like in science).

Not at all true, they use adversarial argument.

The prosecution finds everything you do in the dimmest and most heinious light and the defense finds everything you do in the most benevolent, or confused or humanistic foibles that can be attributed to light. But always with good intent.


Having been to law school, I would say the arguments from both sides are built on the evidence presented in court. But nobody argues strictly on a notion; as in "X is true because there's a long standing tradition to believe it." What's true is the long standing tradition of belief (but not necessarily what's believed). The laws we have are interesting as they are invented by people and subject to interpretation just like religions are.

quote:

Are we supposed to withhold judgement until every last piece of information has been found? No. We wait until we have enough to convict or acquit.

Absolute aggreement, I convict Christianity and the theory of evolution.

If new information becomes available, we change the judgment.

OK, I am with you.

The same thing takes place in science. But in science, a final judgement is never made because scientists know there will eventually be more information to look at.

They have the leisure, not a matter of eating to survive or doing anything.
The Calculus, by its very definition says you cannot cross a room, because of the infintessimal measurement approaching 1/0, but never there. But guess what, it is a model that works for us now and today. Nothing will say that it works tomorrow.

Today western cultures don't put a lot of stock in multiple Gods but there are still places where people do. Who's right? Who's wrong? None of them will say it's them.

This is simplistic, I believe in Odin the one eyed, God of confusion and war, and one of many. Why? because it is a theory I have and a fact based on empirical evidence I see......Hug a tree......everone else is wrong that considers Y'shua Ha' Notz'ri (joshua (not Jesus for christs sake)) other than a mediocre rabbi as historically recorded.

Seems to me that it's alotta prattle about the theory and fact and faith thing. Strong feelings (which I really don't have, believe it or not). Well, there's enough here to start a war with everybody.

Laughing Maniacally,
Ron


My main point is there's more of a difference between "faith" and "theory" than similarity. You may disagree or simply want to play with meanings to have some fun with the topic. This debate will never end but it is engaging conversation and that's why I pursue it (Note to dark~angel: It has nothing to do with being defensive.)

A million billion people can believe something and still that doesn't make it true. It could be accepted for countless millenia and still that doesn't make it true. I don't subscribe to explanations because an alternative has not been definitively proven beyond all shadow of a doubt like Intelligent Design proposes. If anything is B.S., it's that.

I'm fully aware that experiences can be deceiving (but that's why we test a theory). The test indicates some degree of a theory's reliability and it gets honed in accuracy or eventually discarded. A good example is the sun's motion across the sky. By itself it would look the same if the sun orbited the earth or the earth orbits the sun. Eventually we acquired enough information to show which one is correct. In other words, new information changes our perception of the universe. This is what science strives to accomplish...provide more information.

For some odd reason, there are religious people in the world who are not content with their belief being simply a model for living a good life. They also need for it to explain the big questions. What I'm pointing out is the explanations were based on what was known and believed at the time of its inception. But since then a lot of new information has become available. Much of it has made these explanations obsolete but that doesn't make the model of a good life invalid. What does how the universe was created or where did human beings come from have to do with treating each other decently?

anthrosub

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RE: B.C. Tours - 11/27/2005 2:47:43 PM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

Do you have faith in Santa Claus? I doubt it. Why? Because you know it's a myth. Do you have faith in Zeus? Probably not, but if you could go back in time to ancient Greece, you'd be hard pressed to find people who didn't.


Do I have faith in these people? No. Do I have any cause to believe in them? Yes(particularly Santa... obvious reasons)... And do I believe in evolution - yes.
Evolution is only a proven scientific fact up to a point. Just like the existance of Jesus. Or Rome. But it changes with new evidence, new theory... and there are still missing links, missing pieces to the puzzle.
Sorry - really wanted to respond to that particular question

Take care Anthro!

Peace and Love

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RE: B.C. Tours - 11/27/2005 3:03:06 PM   
AAkasha


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quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub


For some odd reason, there are religious people in the world who are not content with their belief being simply a model for living a good life. They also need for it to explain the big questions. What I'm pointing out is the explanations were based on what was known and believed at the time of its inception. But since then a lot of new information has become available. Much of it has made these explanations obsolete but that doesn't make the model of a good life invalid. What does how the universe was created or where did human beings come from have to do with treating each other decently?

anthrosub[/color]


Religious 'organizations' (especially the big ones) are now businesses that require a lot of money and also have a lot of political power. I'd suggest that these factors have pushed religious machines into an area that often contradicts "christian values" or "spiritual principles" and ignores the basics and the "point" of their existence.

You need to recognize that there are millions of people practicing a private spirituality which they may or may not label with one of the big religious names, they do not speak of it to push it upon others (unless asked about it) and they do not necessarily even visit a place of worship to practice it. As with anything, the people you "see" that represent "spirituality" are the zealots, the fruit loops, the extremists, and generally those using it for reasons other than good.

Spirituality doesn't have to focus on the "how" of the universe or human existence - but for whatever group to get that "chip" of power and be a part of the US educational system -- that would seem to be a pretty powerful foot in the door. Is the goal to help grow the spiritual foundations of the youth today and instill morals -- or is a financial goal or a political one?

The "purpose" or "benefit" of having spirituality is evident only once you *have* it. It isn't something that can be measured or proven, but its one that delivers positive results on a very personal level. When you see it in yourself and can recognize there is some benefit to it, you put more faith in it. As you put more faith in it, you find more comfort in it. As you put more trust in it, your life seems less haphazard and meaningless. As you learn to dispose of selfish thinking and give without the expectation of return, you find a deeper meaning in life. As you become a better person, good things happen to you. All of these things are self evident, even to an athiest probably; but to commit to them -- on a spiritual level -- gives it structure and purpose.

I was an agnostic until a few years ago, I'm still kind of in that camp but I'm leaning toward a spitituality that I'm not sure can be defined, and doubt it has anything to do with any "religion." A common theme I have found is that people often at some point in their life have some sort of a spiritual encounter/incident that is powerful enough that they stop and investigate.

My husband is an atheist (and a well-read one at that, combined with a solid religious upbringing that was so strong he was on the path to becoming a minister) with a scientific mind. We've had debates for hours and hours on this very topic and he can win them all with ease. One of the things I've challenged him, albeit slightly on, is the concept of fate (finding a soul mate) and how emotions like "love" are more than chemical reactions in the brain (the same with intuition, karma, etc.) The main point here is that while he cannot PROVE "love" exists, he cannot deny that he feels it, but to prove that it does exist to someone who has never felt it is fruitless. I'll admit he's explained it to me on a biological level (I think) that is way over my head, but he's added that there are some parts of the brain that scientists have yet to fully understand.

I'm wondering if there is a part of the brain that can one day be manipulated to make you believe and feel that you are in love with a person and willing to unconditionally accept them and die for them; can science do that?

Akasha

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(in reply to anthrosub)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: B.C. Tours - 11/27/2005 3:06:11 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I am so sorry to interrupt this...........

Does anyone here remember the song "Santa Baby ........."
Foy my verydeariendsnnamedmaria,

Ron

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: B.C. Tours - 11/27/2005 3:16:14 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I am so sorry to interrupt this...........

Does anyone here remember the song "Santa Baby ........."
Foy my verydeariendsnnamedmaria,

Ron


Anything for You Ron -


quote:

Santa baby, slip a sable under the tree, For me.

I've been an awful good girl,
Santa baby, and hurry down the chimney tonight.

Santa baby, a drop top C-L-K too, Light blue.

I'll wait up for you dear,
Santa baby, and hurry down the chimney tonight.

Think of all the fun I've missed,
Think of all the fellas that I haven't kissed,
Next year I could be oh, so good,
If you'd check off my Christmas list,
Boo doo bee doo. [background]

Santa honey, I wanna yacht,
And really that's not a lot,
I've been an angel all year,
Santa baby, and hurry down the chimney tonight.

Santa cutie, there's one thing that I really need, The deed.
To a plex of my hand,
Santa cutie, and hurry down the chimney tonight.

Santa baby, fill my stocking with a rolex, And checks.
Sign your 'X' on the line,
Santa baby, and hurry down the chimney tonight.

Come and trim my Christmas tree,
With some decorations bought at Tiffany's,
I really do believe in you,
Let's see if you believe in me,
Boo doo bee doo. [background]

Santa baby, forgot to mention one little thing, A ring.
I don't mean on the phone,
Santa baby, and hurry down the chimney tonight,
Hurry down the chimney tonight,
Hurry down the chimney tonight



That one?
Sung most famously by Marilyn Monroe. Also sung by(who it was written for) Eartha Kitt ..and more lately by Madonna.
Written by Joan Javits and Philip Springer


Peace and Love

< Message edited by darkangel -- 11/27/2005 3:20:51 PM >

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.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: B.C. Tours - 11/27/2005 3:24:01 PM   
onceburned


Posts: 2117
Joined: 1/4/2005
From: Iowa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub
Your analogy about the supermarket I would take as a good example of having faith. You don't "know" if there will be any but you go anyway.


I disagree. We go to the supermarket based upon the theory that it will have food for us to buy. This is our belief, based upon empirical evidence.... supermarkets have always had food when we shop. Its a rational decision based upon a generalization that we have made.

Faith goes beyond belief, because it goes beyond empirical evidence.

I realize that this may appear to be a quibble over terms, but it bothers me to think that people have faith in theories, rather than belief in theories.

Edit:
BTW, the tour that you describe is appalling and makes me worry for our country's future.

< Message edited by onceburned -- 11/27/2005 3:25:48 PM >

(in reply to anthrosub)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: B.C. Tours - 11/27/2005 4:27:34 PM   
anthrosub


Posts: 843
Joined: 6/2/2004
Status: offline 		AAkasha,
Thanks for adding more content to this discussion. I agree with it and have had many of those thoughts myself while thinking about the many different points that come up in debate.

dark~angel,
We are in agreement. Things like Santa do serve a purpose (although I sometimes wonder who it's for...the parents or the children...probably both). AAkasha describes the value of religion in her post and this is what I meant about how it can be a guide to living a good life. If it could be left at that, I'd have no problem but it's those zealots and their insistence on the history of the universe and the myths contained in the bible being taken literally that drives me up a wall. Especially when it's taught to children who have no defense.

anthrosub

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"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

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(in reply to AAkasha)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: B.C. Tours - 11/27/2005 4:29:07 PM   
anthrosub


Posts: 843
Joined: 6/2/2004
Status: offline 		I understand your point but in this case, it was more about the oranges than the supermarket specifically.

anthrosub

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to onceburned)
Profile   Post #: 20
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