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RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you - 9/5/2008 8:51:24 PM

Noah

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I understand the word obsession to mark a pathology.

If you put this all in terms of other people's kinks/fantasies vs. your pathologies, even for a little while, as a sort of exercise, different parts of the picture stand out.

It might be a noble, enriching and life-affirming thing for you to do to take your obsessions to the people qualified to address them. It may cost you something, including a measure of liberty in the most crass sense of the word.

Success is not guaranteed (I won't presume to define the word success for you here) but what chance at success (in any coherent terms you may define the word) do you have while these demons have this much control of the wheelhouse?

Giving yourself access to qualified, good-hearted people may eventually yield self-understanding and self acceptance. It might prevent a tragedy. That factor is worth dwelling carefully upon, I think.

It might eventually present you with a much greater liberty familiar to many and unknown to you, the freedom to direct your contribution to your life rather than have this constant low-grade (or worse) usurpation of you freedom by your pathologies.

I don't know ... in the end you might retain some or all of these things as kinks which you could enjoy (in circumscribed, non-anti-social, non-self-destructive ways.) Or maybe you'd find the rich pleasures available vai some other, non-obssesive passions currently occluded by your obsessions.

In any event there doesn't seem to be much joy or enjoyment in your life now. If an interval of restricted mobility and hard work could buy you the chance at a long life of meaning and fulfillment untortured by obsession, it might be a bargain worth entering into.

Please consider the possibility that the obsessions are not who you are, however much they might want you to think so. Consider the possibility that the obsessions are afflicting who you are, and that you are person who is worth working and even fighting for.

I may be off-base in reading you; my ideas may be crap. I'll leave that to you to evaluate. But for all the things you might find wrong with what I've offered, if you have read any word of the above as unkind, you've misread it.

Good luck, Ialdbaoth.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)

Post #: 21

RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you - 9/5/2008 11:58:44 PM

stella41b

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Am I the only one without any ethical issues? You see I'm not looking to satisfy my kink with someone else, but rather share my kink with someone else who accepts and understands for positive reasons of happiness and fulfillment.

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Post #: 22

RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you - 9/6/2008 6:42:49 AM

DesFIP

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You've spoken before and very openly about your self esteem issues. That you need a woman who is severely underweight to allow you to feel strong in comparison. I wonder if these are not related feelings. That you want someone who literally cannot run away from you due to mobility issues so that you can feel stronger, more powerful in comparison.

If so, then getting help for your severe self esteem issues is paramount. Because if you felt strong in yourself you wouldn't be afraid of having a relationship with a strong woman, nor would you feel driven to finding someone physically weak to make you feel emotionally strong.

As far as being sent for 72 hours involuntary, not unless you have plans to hurt someone else or yourself. You may want to start an interview with a potential therapist by addressing this directly.

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Post #: 23

RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you - 9/6/2008 6:47:44 AM

NuevaVida

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah
Please consider the possibility that the obsessions are not who you are, however much they might want you to think so. Consider the possibility that the obsessions are afflicting who you are, and that you are person who is worth working and even fighting for.

This was beautiful to read. Thank you for writing it.

(in reply to Noah)

Post #: 24

RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you - 9/6/2008 9:35:31 AM

Ialdabaoth

Posts: 1073
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From: Tempe, AZ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

You've spoken before and very openly about your self esteem issues. That you need a woman who is severely underweight to allow you to feel strong in comparison. I wonder if these are not related feelings. That you want someone who literally cannot run away from you due to mobility issues so that you can feel stronger, more powerful in comparison.

It's a fair cop. Although I'll note that all my self esteem issues are external, not internal - I entirely believe that I'm a pretty awesome person inside, I just have no faith that I can interact with the world from a position of strength. This leads to a lot of pragmatic self-doubt, since even while I can epistemologically validate my own worth, I have no faith in my ability to communicate that worth to others.

quote:

If so, then getting help for your severe self esteem issues is paramount. Because if you felt strong in yourself you wouldn't be afraid of having a relationship with a strong woman, nor would you feel driven to finding someone physically weak to make you feel emotionally strong.

I'm really not so certain about this. I happen to think that severe power disparities are pretty. I find them aesthetically appealing. I think the world would be lessened without them, just like the world would be lessened without peer relationships. We all exhibit a wide bell-curved spectrum of behavior, and there's got to be some room for the people on the edges.

quote:

As far as being sent for 72 hours involuntary, not unless you have plans to hurt someone else or yourself. You may want to start an interview with a potential therapist by addressing this directly.

Been there, done that. Part of my self esteem issues stem from my constant need to broadcast all my own weaknesses - I ethically believe that it's necessary for people to understand my vulnerabilities before I let them make a decision about my strengths. I'm still seeking a good cognitive therapist to teach me how to do this correctly, and I invariably start with "listen, I'm a strange duck, and you absolutely have the power to commit me involuntarily if I say something that weirds you out too far. I've never intentionally harmed anyone in my life and I don't intend to start, and before I begin I'm going to need you to establish that I can trust you to believe that statement." Most of them start trying to drag out how it is that I am a danger, with "I think it's interesting that you felt the need to say that; what makes you so concerned about wanting to hurt others?", followed by a very touchy social dance.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 25

RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you - 9/6/2008 9:38:26 AM

OneMoreWaste

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
And then I think that everyone should be treated with respect; that every person must be negotiated with; that everyone has the right to be happy. And so I've found myself involved in BDSM over the past 15 years, because it's the closest thing to what I actually emotionally need that I can allow myself to partake of. But when my actual happiness is directly contingent on the real and soul-deep unhappiness of my victims, where does that put me, ethically?

Let me preface this by saying that like pissdoll, I am sympathetic. With that said:

Ethically, it puts you on a couch in Hell next to John Wayne Gacy. Or at least, acting on it would. Which is why you don't.

It seems pretty obvious that you're aware of this, which begs the question- why ask? If you're looking for an ethical justification for maiming someone against their will, you're not going to find it in any public discussion.

You might find a kindred spirit who can put up a good argument, one that makes it sound as though acting on these desires is, really, not all that unreasonable when you think about it. A justification that will help you think that, under certain circumstances, one could argue that it's really the right thing to do, just one that's unfairly stigmatized by centuries of brain-washing.

Is that something you really want to find?

I have nothing to add as far as practical advice that hasn't already been said, but I wanted to ask that question (hopefully before the thread gets pulled).

This is one of those rare circumstances where I am actually glad that I'm not a Dominant, because I know there's always a slippery slope behind trying to take the edge off of those obsessions. Be careful.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)

Post #: 26

RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you - 9/6/2008 9:52:42 AM

Ialdabaoth

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From: Tempe, AZ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OneMoreWaste
It seems pretty obvious that you're aware of this, which begs the question- why ask? If you're looking for an ethical justification for maiming someone against their will, you're not going to find it in any public discussion.

Not quite. I think I'm looking for an ethical justification for wanting to maim someone against their will. Actually, even more than that, I'm exposing my weaknesses to the group - I'd rather have people KNOW that I have these sorts of desires, as it makes it far more likely that I will never act on them. Consider posts like this my way of "keeping myself honest", while simultaneously exploring the possibilities of actually becoming that kind of monster. Not as fantasy, but more as a cautionary tale.

Of course, as the thread weaves back and forth, I'm liable to speak on this from a myriad of perspectives; this is just one.

Does any of this make sense?

(in reply to OneMoreWaste)

Post #: 27

RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you - 9/6/2008 9:57:31 AM

cankles

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You might wanna consider that being involuntarily committed might not be a bad thing. Maybe it could benefit you in the long run.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)

Post #: 28

RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you - 9/6/2008 10:06:27 AM

aftrshock

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Joined: 12/2/2007
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you're looking for an ethical justification for wanting to maim someone?

you said that you feel like you're a strong person inside, but that you fail in communicating this to the outside world; also that you want to take a 'pretty girl', and maim and destroy her.

you feel weak and intimidated by people, and you want to destroy the things that bring those feelings into you, which you project onto a person or persons you deem to be intimidating, since you perceive them putting forward this understanding and charisma and strength that you feel you're lacking.

Take martial arts. Build up your confidence. Do things that make you physical and make you manifest things physically. Take woodworking.

Reject philosophy.
[Mod Note: flame removed]

< Message edited by ModeratorEleven -- 9/6/2008 3:15:50 PM >

(in reply to Aynne88)

Post #: 29

RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you - 9/6/2008 10:37:22 AM

Ialdabaoth

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From: Tempe, AZ
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Well, let me clarify.

I've known plenty of very self-confident people who have no problem with getting college girls drunk (or even roofied) to have sex with them, or embezzling hundreds of thousands of dollars from their employees' retirement funds, or pulling over black kids to plant weed on them to get their arrest quotas up. In general, my lack of self-confidence comes from a very critical, cynical view of the world - and frankly, most of the people seem to want to do things about as despicable as what I want; they just let themselves (and let each other) get away with it.

I don't want to get away with it. What I want to do is acknowledge that these thoughts are there, that they're not just mine, and that I can still be accepted even though I have them.

But then there's the whole moral ambiguity of living in the real world, where the only true metric of wrongdoing seems to be in the punishment, and if you get away with something for long enough it suddenly stops being wrong. I'm sure Kim Jong Il sleeps quite well at night, thank you. But from my end, I know what I want, and I know that it's wrong, but my real pragmatic question lies in how far down that slippery slope I can go without losing the parts of myself that I value.

Is bondage itself wrong?
Is playing with a 19 year old wrong when I'm 33?
Are mind-games wrong?
Is short-term "consentual non-consent" wrong?
Are 24/7 relationships wrong?
Is long term "consentual non-consent" wrong?

Where's the line?

(in reply to aftrshock)

Post #: 30

RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you - 9/6/2008 1:50:44 PM

Wheldrake

Posts: 477
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

And then I think that everyone should be treated with respect; that every person must be negotiated with; that everyone has the right to be happy. And so I've found myself involved in BDSM over the past 15 years, because it's the closest thing to what I actually emotionally need that I can allow myself to partake of. But when my actual happiness is directly contingent on the real and soul-deep unhappiness of my victims, where does that put me, ethically?

I don't know about ethically - I think all ethics are essentially subjective, which may of course lead you to disregard my viewpoint entirely. But in practical terms, I think that the situation you've described puts you squarely among the 99.9% of the human race who want something that they can't have, and therefore need to find a compromise between their desires and reality.

It might be hard to find a way to inflict "real and soul-deep unhappiness" without making yourself feel like a complete troglodyte in the process (not to mention the possibility of arrest, etc.), but you could probably find people who would let you inflict some real unhappiness of a shallower variety within the framework of consensual non-consensuality.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)

Post #: 31

RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you - 9/6/2008 2:04:43 PM

aftrshock

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Joined: 12/2/2007
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^^ Cheers to the above.

When you're asking "is it wrong", are you asking someone else to decide for you?

Keep in mind... deciding things for ourselves is one of the few freedoms we truly have.

As far as a line, I would say it's something you must draw yourself; life, typically, is in far too many shades of gray, to draw one line of black and white, right and wrong.

I think a basic idea of 'wrong' is this: satisfying your own needs and desires at the expense of another, without their acknowledgment, acquiescence, and agreement. Whether it is through lies, manipulation, brutality, arrogance, etc. As far as what defines right and wrong, it's always to do with punishment; if you feel no moral regret, you truly feel no punishments. Regret is the only punishment that is real; everything else is a consequence you accept.

Plenty of people are allowed to, and even encouraged to kill without reason or knowledge. I'd define that as wrong.

If you have a 19 yr old slave girl who asks you to tie her up and whip her... I see nothing wrong about that. Perhaps ask before you amputate something, just as a kosher move.

(in reply to Wheldrake)

Post #: 32

RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you - 9/6/2008 2:30:39 PM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aftrshock
Regret is the only punishment that is real; everything else is a consequence you accept.

Post rocks. But this statement fucking stood out. Kudos.

the.dark.

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(in reply to aftrshock)

Post #: 33

RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you - 9/6/2008 3:24:48 PM

subeos

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Nice post!
I heard once that what happens (trauma) to you as a child. Now can turn you on as an adult? Not sure there is any truth to that. But what the hell. Thank you for expressing yourself so well on here.

slave eos

~ To Thine Own Self Be True~

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 34

RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you - 9/6/2008 3:38:35 PM

charlotteS

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Joined: 3/9/2008
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I come from the other side (wanting terrifying things to happen to me) but I can still relate. I remember feeling that I was obsessed with rape and abuse fantasies that went way beyond a little play rape scene. I felt it was a part of me and I was never satisfied by the idea of play rape, not real enough, not scary enough. And yet I knew that experiencing it in real life could leave me permanently hurt if not dead. So I always felt I would never be truly satisfied.

Something I've been finding though is that a lot of this is choice. I started fantasizing about this stuff before I knew what I was doing or was aware enough to make conscious choices about it. I enjoyed my violent fantasies so I always used them to get off, surrounded myself with similar stories, sought out ways to read about it, see movies or shows etc. I couldn't be sexually satisfied without thinking about this stuff.

Now I actively work to include other fantasies in my repertoire. At first I was skeptical. I felt that I was trying to be someone I'm not. But a while later I have cum while having gentle sex, I have gotten off to thoughts other than violent ones and I have replaced some of my common fantasies with others, bringing diversity in. Basically I have been teaching myself (with the help of Master) to be sexually aroused by things I wasn't aroused by before. Replacing fantasies of force with fantasies of submission. As a result I am much more satisfied.

Master and I still like to walk up to that dark edge sometimes. I love having someone to express my darkest desires to who is willing to walk with me through those thoughts with me, find the parts that we can experience together and acknowledge the ones we can't as something that is still a part of me. There are places we both desire to go that we know we could if we let ourselves but we never would. The price would be far greater than the gain.

Hope that helps. You're not alone in thinking sick thoughts. Believe me, some of mine are best not discussed on a public forum. But instead of feeling that you must either become a monster or forever be unsatisfied I would encourage you to see if you can't cultivate other fantasies. I liked the suggestion to take martial arts, try other ways to feel strong and give them a chance before you say they don't work. I still have my twisted fantasies but I also feel very fulfilled. You're not alone for wanting things that shouldn't really be done in real life. But neither do you necessarily have to act fully on your fantasies to be satisfied. I found that I didn't have to.

Warm wishes,

charlotte

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(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 35

RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you - 9/6/2008 9:50:43 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to do something that's wrong- like really seriously bad wrong. Do you really think it's negatively affecting how you function in your life and relationships?

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(in reply to charlotteS)

Post #: 36

RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you - 9/6/2008 9:54:26 PM

Ialdabaoth

Posts: 1073
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From: Tempe, AZ
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Honestly? No, I don't - but I think talking about it is. Unfortunately, I feel ethically compelled to talk about it - I have a responsibility to the world to not hold back who I am, even when fear would tell me to.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 37

RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you - 9/6/2008 9:57:08 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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How does talking about it cause problems? Do you bring it up at inappropriate times? OR does it just scare off a lot of potential mates?

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Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)

Post #: 38

RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you - 9/6/2008 10:05:14 PM

Ialdabaoth

Posts: 1073
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From: Tempe, AZ
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I think it scares off a lot of potential mates, and a lot of potential friends. I think that (as evidenced by this post) it often makes me look weaker than other Doms - I sometimes get this weird sense that there's this idea that a "real Dom" would either not have these fantasies, or would actually act on them - and that either one of these would be okay, but that what I think is ethical restraint is just thinly-veiled cowardice, and what I think is ethical self-reflection and self-doubt is just thinly veiled incompetence. I often can't shake the impression that a real Dom wouldn't waste His time thinking about such trivialities, and would simply... ah... how should I phrase - "Do as He Will".

If I make any sense?

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 39

RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you - 9/7/2008 2:41:29 AM

cankles

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Joined: 8/18/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

Honestly? No, I don't - but I think talking about it is. Unfortunately, I feel ethically compelled to talk about it - I have a responsibility to the world to not hold back who I am, even when fear would tell me to.

I think this is pretty telling. I can actually really sympathize with you - not because I share your impulses/desires (none of my turn-ons are as extreme as yours) but because I recognize the tactic you're employing as one I've used a lot myself. You're very careful to frame this in a manner that shows you're cognizant of how tremendously repellent your desires are, a compartmentalized part of yourself that you can view with an analytical eye. By laying yourself bare, you've preempted a lot of the critical reactions one might expect to a topic of this sort. It resolves the dilemma of wanting to talk to people about this and seeking understanding/insight, while knowing that the immediate, visceral reaction of most people would (besides being hurtful) impede your quest for real insight into the nature of your condition.

So framing this as an issue of ethics is misleading. It's a rationalization for why you have to be so forthright with people wrt your desires. The problem is, you're smart enough to rationalize your way out of admitting a lot of unsettling truths about yourself (I have this problem too), chief among them being that you cannot reconcile your fantasy life with your practical existence without compromising any hope of being a healthy human being. And make no mistake; this is an issue of healthy and unhealthy, not right and wrong. It's the same element of ego that prevents junkies from committing themselves to the kind of help that they really need, because even though they perceive their problems they cannot divorce themselves from the idea that they can do it 'their' way, that they can regulate their disease in a way that will still satisfy their urges. This is why bottoming out is usually necessary for the addict to make a real progression to committed treatment.

summary - I understand where you're coming from, but you're spinning in circles with all this tortured logic. I blame philosophy for that. You need to place yourself in the hands of professionals and completely buy into whatever they plan for you.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)

Post #: 40

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