RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you

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OneMoreWaste -> RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you (9/7/2008 3:28:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth Not quite. I think I'm looking for an ethical justification for wanting to maim someone against their will. I'm not sure if I'm being ignorant or pedantic, but I think of that as being outside the realm of ethics shrug. Desires, fantasies, etc., are internal. Acting on them (directly, or even indirectly, say by sharing a detailed kidnapping/torture fantasy with a group where it may inspire someone to act on it) is subject to ethical considerations. Desires just are. quote: I'd rather have people KNOW that I have these sorts of desires, as it makes it far more likely that I will never act on them. Consider posts like this my way of "keeping myself honest", while simultaneously exploring the possibilities of actually becoming that kind of monster. Not as fantasy, but more as a cautionary tale. Yeah, I've been there before.

scottishdove -> RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you (9/7/2008 3:51:18 AM)
i agree with cankles, Iaidabaoth. your real problem is not your dark desires, but the fact you are so intelligent and an artist. this is really the extra twist that makes it so hard for you. it is going to be very very hard for you to find a therapist who is smart and understanding enough to be really able to help you. you are going to have to put some effort into finding a compatible therapist.. maybe get recommendations from the industry itself and from lifestyle people.. i think the help you need is to feel understood, and given coping mechanisms, and perspective on yourself, and some tools to build a more satisfying life without engaging your worst fantasies. a lot of what you are experiencing is hormonal driven.. taking your basic urges and upping them to a more tortuous level, but you are long way away from reaching the age where that pressure will reduce. you can't wait that long. ironically, you are in the position of a really complex, smart and self aware submissive.. how do you find a Dom who is smarter and more aware than you are, who you can't run mental rings around? take care, realize many people here share your dark fanatasies and some of your dilemnas (i am really drawn to rape fantasies and harsh sexual use, but realize i don't have the emotional makeup to really withstand the reality). alice

Stephann -> RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you (9/7/2008 3:34:28 PM)
I also agree with a lot of what cankles said. I've also had to come to terms with a lot of my fantasies being unhealthy, immoral, unethical, and dangerous. I couldn't reconcile those things until I really came to understand that most of what fueled those desires were throwbacks from my childhood. For nearly a decade, I couldn't enjoy sex without fantasizing that there were two women. I finally came to terms with it by realizing I didn't really want/need two women, but that I was actually compensating for unresolved abandonment issues. I've also had fantasies that are firmly outside of the TOS, and realized most of it stemmed from a lousy childhood. I was able to get past them without therapy, but the right therapist almost ten years ago would have really helped. Recently, I've come to terms with a drinking problem. I use the problem loosely; I like to drink. I enjoy beer, wine, liquor, etc. I don't drink to get drunk, but inevitably I drink too much and it was starting to tear my body apart. Yet abstaining (or even severely cutting back) on my drinking had a huge impact on how I saw myself. I like going to bars, I like going dancing, I like the sorts of conversations that come when people have had two bottles of beer, I like being able to say "hey, lets go grab a drink." Over the years, those activities came to define who I was, at least in part. Bar B Quing meant beer, a video at home meant a beer, road trips meant bear, camping meant beer, the list goes on. Getting past that meant having to look at myself in a very different light, and starting to imagine what I'll be like, without drinking. You understand you have a problem, the fantasies you mention seem to illustrate a great deal of anger and a desire to assert control over people who might have made you feel powerless, though nothing in your posts indicate that you have any real resolve to change. Rather, as cankles said, you're pre-empting other peoples judgment of you by just 'putting it out there.' Ultimately, you're going to have to live with yourself. I've found (and continue to learn, for good or ill) that it's easier in the long run to come to terms with complicated and dangerous desires, than to live with guilt borne from acting on them. Best of luck to you, Stephan

pdv99 -> RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you (9/8/2008 4:47:18 PM)
I think it's healthy to try to distinguish between fantasies and realities, and think about the consequences for others of trying to make your fantasies a reality. It's by those consequences you should judge your actions. If acting out your obsessions would cause involuntary harm to others, physically or psychologically, then to me you've hit a moral HARD LIMIT. I have some dark fantasies - but I know just which ones I'll try to live out and which I'll try to keep in fantasy land. Of course some of them I choose not to live out because they could cause ME long term harm - like prison! LOL

thetammyjo -> RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you (9/8/2008 5:53:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth I have. They are both horrifyingly pretend, which makes the whole thing disgusting enough to push me into a blind rage. Have you ever talked with a therapist on a regular basis to try and figure out your feelings? Nothing wrong with any type of feeling but it might help you to know what it is that turns you on about these scenarios ... it might not be what you think at all. No one ever has to do everything they think about... that's that the great thing about thinking and fiction: you get to do things you'd never do in reality.

sistermargaret -> RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you (9/8/2008 11:49:25 PM)
Have You surfed the web???? Every imaginable odd ball desire and type of torture is out there, even Yours. i don't think having a fertile imagination is a bad thing. Daydreams and fantasies are our pressure valves. You already know You can't act on them, just like we all know we can't act on ours. So enjoy them and keep them where they belong, is all. i totally understand where You are. So, from far left field, i'll tell You what cured my weird obsessions. i took a 3rd year biology class and had to disect a pig embryo. All that pink flesh. Holding the knife. The smells. Watching my hands and fingers cut and carefully pull one piece of tissue from another. The reality is NOTHING like the fantasy. When i discussed this with a buddy at the time, he said i was probably just curious rather than perverted, and thinking way too much for my own good. The imagination is more powerful than we think and i agree, perhaps an EMT class would be enough to satisfy Your curiosity/craving. In NY an EMT class is one semester and soon You too could be out there hauling around in a 'meat wagon', seeing all the gore You can handle, from a position of authority and power. It did the trick for me. i found some pretty cool friends who were just as perverted as me there as well. It didn't take very long at all though for those obsessions with torture and death to turn into compassion and kindliness. sm All it takes is absolute surrender

Prinsexx -> RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you (9/9/2008 1:29:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth But when my actual happiness is directly contingent on the real and soul-deep unhappiness of my victims, where does that put me, ethically? Hold on......it's really important here, in my personal opinion, to pin point as exactly as you are able to do, at what level of reality your turn on takes place. Now: this all hinges upon the presence of, the degree of or the absence of the consent of your 'victim'. This is the paradox of bdsm. In actual sexual sadism, which is an entirely different matter, there is absence of any degree of consent. (i work with the model that only certain degrees of consent are possible...this is a longer discussion). What you have written in your opening post has degrees of consent within the structure (unless of course you are admitting to being a sexual sadist). Your opening post also has certain degrees and levels of fantasy in the way in which you think about it and construct the scene. We are all entirely and absolutely free inside our minds. There are no terms of service there. Most of us, myself included, are kidding ourselves when we rely upon the other person, or indeed rely upon anyone else, to be more ethical than ourself or to define our ethics for us. Conclusions? There is no code of ethics or terms of service that can constrain our desires. However; there is a consensus as to what behaviours are ethical and which are not. If you can find ANYONE who is 'willing' to interact with you without any consent then that is a sylogism and cannot by definition actually exist. But if you are stating that you can only get turn ons by exerting your will over unwilling and unconsenting victims then you have no place here. It's really that simple. I don't think you are saying that. i just think you are having fantasies about it (like so many of us).....and getting turned on by convincing yourself that it is real. Even so you are not constrained by your convictions especially if they are running you, (in my humble opinion).

dosomethingtome -> RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you (9/10/2008 9:24:03 PM)
Consensual nonconsent is an oxymoron and it's also consensual in the end. Consent can only be revoked by the person giving it, that person is the only one who can take it back. The unethical part comes in when you are no longer paying any attention to the limits and consents, it becomes true rape. I wouldn't set myself up, if I were you, by telling yourself that there is no real way of telling if your behavior is ethical or not. If you have crossed another person's limits then it's unethical because you then objectify the person, abandoning their wishes and regards. I work in the mental health field and I must honestly say that some of your desires concern me. Having said that, I appreciate your honesty and wish you the best. Unrequested advice: Think about the aftermath first, then enjoy the "before" math if it all adds up right. I spend too much time treating people who say, "I didn't even think about what would happen after...." PB

Ialdabaoth -> RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you (9/11/2008 10:36:57 AM)
Well, I always consider the consequences - it's the only system of ethics I can't logically escape. :) But I get into so many situations where I say "I had no idea what the consequences could be, and they seemed equally bad no matter which way I went, so I made a command decision and here I am." I can't be Kantian about my ethics. I wind up in so many situations where I say, "well, I'll let them go be with this other person, because at least if they date-rape this girl it wasn't my action that led to her harm; merely my inaction. And then I say to someone, "no, screw this. You don't get to go on about violation and disrespect for your body and continue to treat yourself with such disrespect. You've been raped four times. At what point are you going to listen to me and change the way you make decisions about boys?" - and then the back parts of my brain kick in, and I WANT to say "you know what? Fine. You don't get to make decisions anymore. We're going to force you to examine what it is you're doing, and you can either admit that you want it, and then it's my turn to have fun with you, or you can realize you don't, and start taking steps to prevent it. But either way, you've built up a huge debt crying on my shoulder every time the consequences of your stupid decisions come bite you in the ass, and I am now collecting. I'll let you know when I'm finished."

john32 -> RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you (9/11/2008 12:10:38 PM)
It sounds to me like you know where the line should be. You know that there are things that are acceptable and things that arent. Thats actually great news. You seem to be beating yourself up internally over getting arousal and satisfaction from fantasies you know to be on the wrong side of acceptable human behavior. Is it morally wrong to feel the way you do? I dont think so. I beleive you cannot control your feelings. you can only control your actions. As long as you control your actions i beleive that regardless of your feelings you are in a moraly and ethicaly safe area. Im new here, both to the site and to the scene so feel free to take that into account. if your asking if you are moraly compromised or ethically wrong, or you have crossed the line of what is acceptable then i say that based on what i have read here you are in the clear. If you are asking about whats next after this life. heaven or hell. reincarnation or whatever. well everyone has a different set of theory on that. in my book there is something good or something bad coming after this. and which one you get depends on your actions in this life significantly more than your emotions or thoughts. in this regard assuming you never rape anyone, dismember or disfigure anyone, or anything along this line then you are in the clear. I would strongly sugest you keep looking for a profesional who you can talk to about these issues. i dont sugest medication and i dont suggest getting commited. Frankly the chances of getting commited against your will are very low. It is extremely important for you to find someone to work through this stuff BEFORE it is to late. before you act on these impulses. I would also caution you about the scene. once again i am new here so feel free to correct me if i propagate misinformation. you may very well find people in this world who will consent to you comiting horrible acts upon them. people who would enjoy you amputating their limbs. I would stay away from these situations. its entirely possible that you may find yourself in a situation so close to the edge of that moral line that it becomes easier to slip over than to stay righteous. dont get me wrong i have enjoyed some rape fantasies, but i have done so as safely as i could. some of your fantasies can have overwelming consequences if someone changes their mind later. maybe not legal consequences but moral ones. spending 50 years in prison is bad, but spending eternity in hell is worse. just because you dont go to prison doesnt mean you dont pay for your misdeeds. as for your situations with friends who daterape and your female friends who subconciously seek out abusive relations. these people are extremely common. unlike most bdsm people i have met these people refuse to admit to themselves what demons hide in their closets. you sir are much more adjusted than they are. yes, you are better adjusted. you recognize your desires and you know they are imoral. you choose not to act upon them. these people deny their demons and refuse to moderate their behavior. im sorry for the long post. i am opinionated and long winded. please consider this simply my opinion. feel free to ask my opinion on anything, as you can see i am happy to share. right and wrong exist a breath away for me. you seem to be on the right side of the line. For your sake as well as the worlds. dont stray across it. ever.

ranja -> RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you (9/12/2008 2:29:45 AM)
Just enjoy your fantasies, don't 'upgrade' them to obsessions and if you can't handle the mind rush anymore pratise meditation or yoga or go for a long walk to totally clear the grey matter of any shit you can't or don't want to deal with, it works for me. amanda

UglyTruth -> RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you (9/12/2008 2:56:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: stella41b Am I the only one without any ethical issues? You see I'm not looking to satisfy my kink with someone else, but rather share my kink with someone else who accepts and understands for positive reasons of happiness and fulfillment. (Bolded text not in original) I think that's the issue right there. If your turn-on is not about someone else's happiness but the very opposite.

UglyTruth -> RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you (9/12/2008 3:02:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: charlotteS I come from the other side (wanting terrifying things to happen to me) but I can still relate. I remember feeling that I was obsessed with rape and abuse fantasies that went way beyond a little play rape scene. I felt it was a part of me and I was never satisfied by the idea of play rape, not real enough, not scary enough. And yet I knew that experiencing it in real life could leave me permanently hurt if not dead. So I always felt I would never be truly satisfied. Something I've been finding though is that a lot of this is choice. I started fantasizing about this stuff before I knew what I was doing or was aware enough to make conscious choices about it. I enjoyed my violent fantasies so I always used them to get off, surrounded myself with similar stories, sought out ways to read about it, see movies or shows etc. I couldn't be sexually satisfied without thinking about this stuff. Now I actively work to include other fantasies in my repertoire. At first I was skeptical. I felt that I was trying to be someone I'm not. But a while later I have cum while having gentle sex, I have gotten off to thoughts other than violent ones and I have replaced some of my common fantasies with others, bringing diversity in. Basically I have been teaching myself (with the help of Master) to be sexually aroused by things I wasn't aroused by before. Replacing fantasies of force with fantasies of submission. As a result I am much more satisfied. Master and I still like to walk up to that dark edge sometimes. I love having someone to express my darkest desires to who is willing to walk with me through those thoughts with me, find the parts that we can experience together and acknowledge the ones we can't as something that is still a part of me. There are places we both desire to go that we know we could if we let ourselves but we never would. The price would be far greater than the gain. Hope that helps. You're not alone in thinking sick thoughts. Believe me, some of mine are best not discussed on a public forum. But instead of feeling that you must either become a monster or forever be unsatisfied I would encourage you to see if you can't cultivate other fantasies. I liked the suggestion to take martial arts, try other ways to feel strong and give them a chance before you say they don't work. I still have my twisted fantasies but I also feel very fulfilled. You're not alone for wanting things that shouldn't really be done in real life. But neither do you necessarily have to act fully on your fantasies to be satisfied. I found that I didn't have to. Warm wishes, charlotte Holy shit. Thank you, charlotte. I found that extremely helpful.

giveeverything -> RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you (9/12/2008 3:22:56 PM)
For real, I've got to tell you, so much of this sounds like mental masturbation....or you sound like you are really on a dangerous "edge." I'd say until you know where you are mentally and emotionally to DO NOTHING, ACT ON NOTHING, in fact, sit on your hands.

Pyrrsefanie -> RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you (9/12/2008 3:40:37 PM)
I'm echoing what was said here earlier: keep a grip on it. If you lose control, it's going to be difficult to pull yourself back out if it -- I sincerely doubt you'd go this far since you can at least admit to being given an ethical/moral dilemma over it, but most serial killers do start out with obsessions or fantasies and then escalate until they hit the sociopathic jackpot, so to speak, and find themselves behind bars and charged with all manners of nightmarish crimes. But I'm sort of in the same boat. Not with the non-consensual stuff necessarily, but I do have a pretty extreme violence fetish to the point where I know it'd be very, very illegal for me to act out my fantasies. There's also another fetish of mine that... hm, I don't even know how to allude to it without getting banned or having the post pulled. Suffice to say I've not acted on it and it's unlikely that I'd ever be able to bring myself to do it. For years I've agonized over these things, beaten myself up over them, wondered if I really am some kind of terrible monster who should be locked up away from society, and furthermore do I even deserve to be in a relationship, D/s or otherwise, or should I just stay as far away from others as possible? Of course knowing that I'm neurologically atypical to begin with doesn't help matters any, but... I just have to remind myself that I am a good person who knows right from wrong, and despite the strange and twisted things that may turn me on, I am in control of it. I can go on without fulfilling these fantasies. I own them, they do not own me. So when you can no longer get off on "normal" fetishes, and you have the all-consuming need to act out your fantasies... that's when you need to start worrying. Go to a therapist. There may be some kind of underlying cause, psychologically speaking, to explain why you're having these thoughts, and it may be as simple as owning up to a past experience or dealing with trauma you've gone through.

brokenmind -> RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you (9/13/2008 12:35:24 AM)
quote: Ialdabaoth You are on the precipice of humanity starring into the void of malevolence. Climb out or dive in. Seems a simple choice, however no matter how you choose you will be denying and betraying yourself. I could encourage you to indulge the inner beast and, one day, read about you in some hacks true crime five minute of fame paper back available at international airports everywhere, or discourage you and let the beast feed on your soul leaving you a shell, wasted, lifeless. I am going to do both in a way that will allow you to indulge, express and allow you the release you seek while clinging to the ethics… the humanity that you know will be lost from you. Hone that creative expression that you kindle and apply it in a way that will offer you the release you need, the expression creativity you seek and the unbridled rampage that is beating in your chest, rolling from your nostrils in heated breaths and tugs that terrible curtain of darkness over your eyes blinding all rational thought. Write it as a novel or graphic novel. Publish it as fiction and you will find understanding. Somewhere, one day, someone will read this, understand it and crave it. He/she will find you and offer you the experience beyond print. The creative soul must be understood through the mediums of expression they utilize. You wish to be known, make it possible, you wish to be understood, present it in a medium that can be followed. Express the darkness that is within you in publication and you will find a sense of satisfaction that will one day lead to the realization of the partner you seek. Broken Mind

NihilusZero -> RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you (9/13/2008 1:00:00 AM)
The depth of introspection that you've melded with the issue you're sharing has been quite a draw for me. While there are so many aspects of this I'd thoroughly enjoy discussing and delving into, the reductionist in me ultimately brings this down to one point: Prioritization That is to say, which element: a: the self-control to adhere to your chosen set of ethical parameters...or b: the admission of the degree to which the violent tendencies echo a primal extension of what you seek to be or are ...which is the primary building block from which you seek to progress? Which is 'truest' to what you wish to be, at the core? One shall inevitably yield to the other but it's in the process of addressing this primary issue that I think the spawning of a constructive framework will come.

SirDominic -> RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you (9/13/2008 4:11:11 PM)
quote: But when my actual happiness is directly contingent on the real and soul-deep unhappiness of my victims, where does that put me, ethically? I would be curious if you know why you have these desires. What has happened in your life that you can only find fulfillment in the real misery of others. This is not a question you have to answer on this thread, I'm just curious if YOU know the answer. As to the "ethics", I would suggest that they are irrelevant as ethics are not set in stone. What is ethical in one place could be entirely unethical in another. Have sex with a 15 year old girl in the U.S. you are going to jail; in other parts of the world, that is considered a consensual age for marriage.

ResidentSadist -> RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you (9/13/2008 6:44:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth .... But when my actual happiness is directly contingent on the real and soul-deep unhappiness of my victims, where does that put me, ethically? I really want to speak to this thread but there are so many variables to define before I can ask or comment from an informed position. Is your satisfaction dependant on their unhappiness or simply independent of it?

bloodquail -> RE: Turn-ons that ethically terrify you (9/13/2008 10:18:20 PM)
Get help nao before you hurt someone. Kay? Thanks. Bye.

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