RE: Self Confidence, and the Weight of Responsibility

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RE: Self Confidence, and the Weight of Responsibility - 9/7/2008 8:08:33 AM

bipolarber

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Ever see "Henry V"? Shakespeare's venerable tale of the young king, who sets off to win France back, and "increase his kingdom, or break it all to peices." Throughout that play, the king is portrayed as someone who acts supremely confident in public, but who has personal doubts about his course of actions. This all comes to a head during an eve of battle monolouge, wherein Henry sits alone after passing among his troops disguised, to learn of their morale.

Also throughout the play, he is compared to his ancestor, who was a brash and impulsive leader, one who nearly brought England to it's knees. Henry V's character also worries that his "headstrong actions" may brand him forever as being the sire of that less than satisfactory leader. (The apple didn't fall far from the tree.)

Shakespeare has always had a way of reflecting the realities of the human condition in his plays. That's one of the many reasons they have survived so long. It seems that, even in his time, people were worried about getting leaders who acted without thought, and who would throw away the lives of their troops without consideration, in wars that were nothing more than their leader's attempt at acheiving "greatness."

You might rent it sometime, preferably before the election. The best version of the play, the most accessible to a modern audiance, is the one by Kenneth Braunugh (sp?)

(in reply to meatcleaver)

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RE: Self Confidence, and the Weight of Responsibility - 9/7/2008 8:13:36 AM

Jeffff

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I would be interested to know how many of the people who responded to this thread actually had children?

Jeff

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 22

RE: Self Confidence, and the Weight of Responsibility - 9/7/2008 8:20:28 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

Ever see "Henry V"? Shakespeare's venerable tale of the young king, who sets off to win France back, and "increase his kingdom, or break it all to peices."

Shakespeare should be compulsory for all would be politicians.

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RE: Self Confidence, and the Weight of Responsibility - 9/7/2008 8:23:44 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

I would be interested to know how many of the people who responded to this thread actually had children?

Jeff

yeah, the fool should have thrown caution to the wind and wheelied down the high street taking out a few unfortunate pedestrians who were foolish enough to be out at such an ungodly hour.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/7/2008 8:24:21 AM >

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RE: Self Confidence, and the Weight of Responsibility - 9/7/2008 8:27:45 AM

TheHeretic

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I'm not one of Shakespeare's great fans, Bipo, but didn't he also have one about a young man who piddle-farts around so long before coming to a decision, and acting on it, that everybody dies?

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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RE: Self Confidence, and the Weight of Responsibility - 9/7/2008 8:30:54 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I'm not one of Shakespeare's great fans, Bipo, but didn't he also have one about a young man who piddle-farts around so long before coming to a decision, and acting on it, that everybody dies?

Well you can say Obama hasn't piddle farted about to get where he is.

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Post #: 26

RE: Self Confidence, and the Weight of Responsibility - 9/7/2008 8:33:35 AM

bipolarber

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Heretic,

Yes, I believe that one was called "Hamnet"... or something like that... (one of his more obscure plays, I think... hardly ever performed, nowadays) only in that case, the decision the wishy-washy dude was trying to make was if he should kill his uncle in an act of revenge.

So, you'd be in favor of striking out, and committing murder, (or war) without giving things much aforethought?

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 27

RE: Self Confidence, and the Weight of Responsibility - 9/7/2008 8:41:28 AM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Well you can say Obama hasn't piddle farted about to get where he is.

Check his voting record in the Illinois legislature, MC...

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 28

RE: Self Confidence, and the Weight of Responsibility - 9/7/2008 8:58:11 AM

TheHeretic

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Hamnet, hambone, something like that...

Action without forethought? No, but once an action is decided on, it should not be done in a timid, half-hearted way, constantly looking over the shoulder. And, if I recall correctly, all that time and planning still had a pretty fucked up end result.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to bipolarber)

Post #: 29

RE: Self Confidence, and the Weight of Responsibility - 9/7/2008 9:07:52 AM

meatcleaver

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Shakespeare isn't a manual on how to do something but a mirror held up to the human condition. The idea that a politician appears confident, in no way means he is confident, it is the necessary part of being a politician. Churchill was wracked with doubt over many things and on many levels but I don't see people saying he was a pathetic leader. (I have some undavoury opinions of him though.)

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Post #: 30

RE: Self Confidence, and the Weight of Responsibility - 9/7/2008 9:20:32 AM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The idea that a politician appears confident, in no way means he is confident,

Exactly the point I was making with the thread, MC. Barack Obama gives a great speech. He looks good on the red, white and blue billboards, with the word "Hope." The question that keeps being asked is, 'can he back it up?'

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 31

RE: Self Confidence, and the Weight of Responsibility - 9/7/2008 9:29:14 AM

celticlord2112

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Shakespeare isn't a manual on how to do something but a mirror held up to the human condition. The idea that a politician appears confident, in no way means he is confident, it is the necessary part of being a politician. Churchill was wracked with doubt over many things and on many levels but I don't see people saying he was a pathetic leader. (I have some undavoury opinions of him though.)

Exactly the point. Obama, when the moment arrives, gets hesitant, nervous, tentative--and puts others at risk in the process.

Behind the wheel of a car or behind the desk in the Oval Office is no place for letting nerves get the better of you.

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Post #: 32

RE: Self Confidence, and the Weight of Responsibility - 9/7/2008 9:32:13 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Shakespeare isn't a manual on how to do something but a mirror held up to the human condition. The idea that a politician appears confident, in no way means he is confident, it is the necessary part of being a politician. Churchill was wracked with doubt over many things and on many levels but I don't see people saying he was a pathetic leader. (I have some undavoury opinions of him though.)

Exactly the point. Obama, when the moment arrives, gets hesitant, nervous, tentative--and puts others at risk in the process.

You could be talking about some of the greatest leaders in world history.

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Post #: 33

RE: Self Confidence, and the Weight of Responsibility - 9/7/2008 9:46:25 AM

celticlord2112

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
You could be talking about some of the greatest leaders in world history.

Churchill had doubts....his public persona was "we shall never surrender."
Lincoln had doubts....his public persona was "I can't spare this man, he fights!"
Eisenhower had doubts.....his public persona was "You are about to embark on the Great Crusade"
Kennedy had doubts.....his public persona was "It shall be the policy of this nation to regard any nuclear missile launched from Cuba against any nation in the Western Hemisphere as an attack on the United States, requiring a full retaliatory response upon the Soviet Union."

Obama has doubts....his public persona is looking over his shoulder, declaring decisions are "above my pay grade", and deferring to the U.N. Security Council.

Leaders do not wear their doubts on their sleeve for the world to see.

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RE: Self Confidence, and the Weight of Responsibility - 9/7/2008 9:51:39 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
You could be talking about some of the greatest leaders in world history.

Churchill had doubts....his public persona was "we shall never surrender."
Lincoln had doubts....his public persona was "I can't spare this man, he fights!"
Eisenhower had doubts.....his public persona was "You are about to embark on the Great Crusade"
Kennedy had doubts.....his public persona was "It shall be the policy of this nation to regard any nuclear missile launched from Cuba against any nation in the Western Hemisphere as an attack on the United States, requiring a full retaliatory response upon the Soviet Union."

Obama has doubts....his public persona is looking over his shoulder, declaring decisions are "above my pay grade", and deferring to the U.N. Security Council.

Leaders do not wear their doubts on their sleeve for the world to see.

As I pointed out before, the pretence of confidence is politics, not the real man.

All the leaders you mention were on the side that should have won even if they were complete incompetents.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Post #: 35

RE: Self Confidence, and the Weight of Responsibility - 9/7/2008 9:55:55 AM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
the side that should have won even if they were complete incompetents.

MC, I think you have just nailed the Democrat talking point for the next four years.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 36

RE: Self Confidence, and the Weight of Responsibility - 9/7/2008 10:00:14 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
the side that should have won even if they were complete incompetents.

MC, I think you have just nailed the Democrat talking point for the next four years.

Well Bush must be beyond incompetent with his results in Iraq.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 37

RE: Self Confidence, and the Weight of Responsibility - 9/7/2008 10:11:32 AM

celticlord2112

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quote:

As I pointed out before, the pretence of confidence is politics, not the real man.

You conflate the confident posture that is de rigeur for a leader with a lack of doubt, and Obama's nervous-nellie wishy-washiness with deep introspection.

All men have doubts. A leader does not publish his doubts to the world.

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RE: Self Confidence, and the Weight of Responsibility - 9/7/2008 10:48:02 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

Huh. As an aside, where *is* the line where side comments drift into "personal attacks"?

A darn fine question, Daba. If you are referring to my most recent reply to NeedsToUseYou, that was a play on Obama's remarks at the Saddleback Forum, excusing himself from making a decision at all. Pretty on-topic.

Was it similar to this at all?

Hope you watch the video, if you haven't already seen it, it's hilarious. Talk about a deer caught in the headlights!

Think Progress " McCain gets nervous' when asked about his opposition ...
McCain gets nervous' when asked about his opposition to insurance-provided birth ... McCain: I'll look at my voting record on it, but I have, uh, (5 second pause) ...thinkprogress.org/2008/07/09/mccain-gets-nervous-when-asked-about-h...

HullabalooMcCain: (after 8 second pause) I don't know enough about it to give you an ... I will respond to - it's a, it's a (nervous) Here's video, if you can see it: ...digbysblog.blogspot.com/.../honor-of-john-mccain-by-dday-john-w.html

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 39

RE: Self Confidence, and the Weight of Responsibility - 9/7/2008 11:14:03 AM

BitaTruble

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

I would be interested to know how many of the people who responded to this thread actually had children?

Jeff

Oh, I do! And I'm telling you, with the first one, you spray lysol on any visitor who comes into the house and with the last one, eating bugs off the floor just means they've got their protein for the day. ;)

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to Jeffff)

Post #: 40

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