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RE: consent and commitment as law - 11/28/2005 2:30:29 PM   
candystripper


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quote:

Don't know if anyone has tested the USA constitution but technically the 13th amendment only outlaws certain types of slavery and servitude and even has an out for criminal punishments. A couple (if they wanted to try it out) could attempt to make their slavery more legal.

thetammyjo


No, there is absolutely no way to contrive a legal form of slavery, period. Gawd am i sick of this question.

candystripper

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: consent and commitment as law - 11/28/2005 2:36:41 PM   
candystripper


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Tony, of course the stories You related were disturbing. As it happens i have a great kid. My point was this -- ONLY to a child am i going to give unconditional love (ok, maybe a grandchild). As for specific parenting issues, that was really beyond the ken of my post...except my statement that my kid could never do anything to lose my love and support. Might need to be tough love with some kids, but that's another thread.

By contrast, my One will know my Intolerables List and i will leave if He commits an act thereon. i am not able or willing to love and remain with a Man no matter what.

candystripper


< Message edited by candystripper -- 11/28/2005 2:38:24 PM >

(in reply to Phoenxx)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: consent and commitment as law - 11/28/2005 2:41:12 PM   
candystripper


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quote:

Collars don't allow for many things. While they allow a Master to own a slave, unless they are married, most states will not recognize the slave as having any rights associated with his/her master. If the slave is f/t, at home, most states will not allow the master to put the slave on his/her medical insurance policy. Often the slave is left without any insurance at all in these cases. In addition, in most states, should the master become so ill that he/she is not conscious and cannot make decisions for him/herself, the slave will not be able to make those decisions, regardless of the time they had been together. And in death, the slave, once again, could even be excluded from the funeral, if that is the family of the master's wishes.

Sunshine119


Please pull the thread "Planning for BDSM Couples and Families" or read my ad in the "Professional Services" section.

candystripper

(in reply to Sunshine119)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: consent and commitment as law - 11/28/2005 4:50:05 PM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

quote:

Don't know if anyone has tested the USA constitution but technically the 13th amendment only outlaws certain types of slavery and servitude and even has an out for criminal punishments. A couple (if they wanted to try it out) could attempt to make their slavery more legal.

thetammyjo


No, there is absolutely no way to contrive a legal form of slavery, period. Gawd am i sick of this question.

candystripper



The USA government could via the wording of the 13th amendment for a crinimal offense. They don't cause imagine the problem with the general public. But constitutionally, they could, if one wished to construe the wording as is written.

I didn't say that any one could do this TODAY. I said that couples are certainly free to try that route but I don't know of anyone who has. The United States court system would allow them to try and see if it would fly.

(yes, this is one of those weird conversations I've had with my brother who was a lawyer and then a judge before his death -- he could think of several interesting arguments for both sides in such a show; he thought I was very strange to ask)

I have no interest in such a thing myself. Perhaps its too much historical knowledge about slavery? Legalized slavery leaves me very cold and icky feeling.

Now allowing a greater variety of legalized individual relationship model is something quite different. I have no personal problem with extending legal rights and responsibilities that I and my husband enjoy now.


_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: consent and commitment as law - 11/28/2005 5:06:07 PM   
Tine11


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

Legalized slavery leaves me very cold and icky feeling.




I personanally think that slavery in the world today bad, when it is outside of the consentual slavery of the BDSM world. Today their are slaves all around the world, and unlike in the early american colenies, slaves were expsive and so taken care of to extent but in a lot of 3rd world countries slaves have become a peice of meat that be replaced. Sadily their is no wayto get rid it ither for everyone in their life could not live without endoring slavery indirectly.



_____________________________

The world is like a shinning diamond.
The way it gitters if you polish it right.
If the light should turn and leave you blinded.
Take the dream and give it one more try.

Soulburn, Masterplan

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RE: consent and commitment as law - 11/28/2005 5:31:19 PM   
starshineowned


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quote:

the notion that since slavery is not a legal option that even consent to it does not bind a slave to her Owner.



Greetings..~smiles~

To me..nothing binds a slave to their Owner, except the slave, and visa versa.

You can sit and ask all the how's and why's possibly imagineable to just those but in the end it does not change them.

starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

(in reply to sunshine333)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: consent and commitment as law - 11/28/2005 5:35:01 PM   
Delvin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshine333

i read a lot on the boards about people's view on the lifestyle and the idea of reality vs. fantasy. people talk about the notion that since slavery is not a legal option that even consent to it does not bind a slave to her Owner.

laws are not the only governing forces in one's life. there are many commitments that we make in our lives that have absolutely nothing to do with the law. for example ... our religious beliefs and practises. some people hold them at a much higher standard than our legal system and would abide by those "laws" more readily that our judicial system.

a handshake is law enough to some. one's "word" is a legally binding agreement in some people's mind.

when some people set out on any particular path and set their intention and level of commitment to such a degree that, no matter what, they will not give up ... in my opinion, that is just as binding, if not more, than any "legally" binding contract. for some, this idea is purely fantasy. for others, it is their absolute reality.

if you were to own a slave ... or be an owned slave ... would the collar and commitment it represents be held in higher or lower value than your country's laws?

humbly,
sunshine



Very good question and some interesting answers so far. The commitment is held at a very high level in this home so much so that it comes before work, play or "general" life activities. This life or lifestyle is always first reguardless of the "laws" of the state. To own a slave is illegal in the United States under the "law" and as of yet I have not read anything where this lifestyle specifically Master vs. slave and owning another person has been heard.

Living in Texas, we tend to get some interesting laws passed, one of which is it is illegal to have, own or buy a dildo. Now, if the same lawmakers decided it was illegal for two people to call themselves Master and slave and live as a Master and slave as most of us understand that lifestyle, I would be, and will brake the law.

The belief in this life and the commitment it requires like any belief and commitment to that belief, normally goes above the law. Church and State is in a constant battle. If the law begins to threaten this life more then it already has, then let the battle begin.

D

(in reply to sunshine333)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: consent and commitment as law - 11/28/2005 5:37:24 PM   
sunshine333


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maybe i'm an idealist but i tend to place a higher value on my commitment to what my collar represents than to actual law. and maybe my question wasn't clear? i am not talking about legalising consensual slavery. i am talking about taking the time and making very sure of the giving or accepting of a collar (of ownership) and then, no matter what ... honoring it. meaning ... not using the excuse that there was no legal binding contract. honoring it for the sake of honor.

the legal system will support the ending of a marriage. but, some religions won't. people of those religious orders will follow their religious laws, regardless of state laws ... and not divorce. it is not an option for them because it is not within their belief system.

i have worn collars before ... consideration, protection, training collars ... but never full ownership collars. and, again, maybe i'm an idealist ... but i'd like to think when and if the day comes that i fully give myself to an owner that i will not think it an option to back out. i mean ... if in the back of my mind i was always aware that i could change my mind and walk away (the way i have felt in lesser collars) then i don't think i would ever truely be able to give it my all and surrender as completely as i'd like to.

humbly,
sunshine

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: consent and commitment as law - 11/28/2005 6:35:09 PM   
Wildfleurs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshine333

if you were to own a slave ... or be an owned slave ... would the collar and commitment it represents be held in higher or lower value than your country's laws?



Well part of my confusion on the question is that I don't really see a conflict between the laws and my relationship. I mean slavery isn't legal but then again my owner isn't trying to sell me so we aren't actively breaking many laws. So I guess to me it isn't a matter of higher or lower value than my country's laws (America) , but to me committments are not even a matter of the law. I'm committed to my relationship, to my owner, and being his... I'm not really sure what more there is than that.

C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
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RE: consent and commitment as law - 11/28/2005 6:53:45 PM   
LadiesBladewing


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Frankly, the laws of the land are irrelevant in comparison to the ethics that bind me to my path. The things that cause harm to others would be anathema to me anyway, and the laws that have nothing to do with protecting, but are solely to enforce some other person's version of morality have no more impact on me than would sitting in another's place of worship for, say, a wedding -- I respect the dignity of -their- commitment, but the words and the concepts mean nothing to me, personally... so while I am in their place of worship, I will behave with the gravity accorded the ritual, but do not feel "bound" by their laws or their spiritual rules. In the same way, I respect a government's and its concomitant population's right to desire a peaceful, docile populace, but I do not necessarily ascribe to, nor would I feel bound by, the moral code that said government is attempting to enforce.

With that in mind, I hold myself to a deeply felt moral standard. However, my moral standard does not abhor, and in fact, cherishes, those individuals who choose to yield themselves completely to the service of another. I am also bound by my own sense of responsibility, and so, if someone were to yield themselves to me under those conditions of service, I would be bound in my duty to take up the yoke of responsibility for the management of that individual and the service that xhe provided.

So for me, whether the law accepted or did not accept the indenture of any servant that we accepted in service, I would consider it a binding contract between myself and that servant -- a contract held to a force of law that exists beyond any government's participation or negation. In the same way, when I love, I do not look for a government to sanction my love, and in fact, would prefer that they not bother to offer sanction at all, but keep their noses to the business of protecting and serving (it seems to me that government has completely lost touch with the "serve" portion of that directive). I would expect any servant who offered themselves in service to me and who was accepted as a member of the household to be ready, willing, and -able- to give the commitment the same measure of gravity that I do, and to be of an ethical fibre to be able to hold on to that commitment, even when things were not pretty or easy, and, in fact, got darned challenging, and perhaps even a little frightening.

Lady Zephyr

(in reply to sunshine333)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: consent and commitment as law - 11/28/2005 7:03:54 PM   
candystripper


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quote:

Today their are slaves all around the world, and unlike in the early american colenies, slaves were expsive and so taken care of to extent but in a lot of 3rd world countries slaves have become a peice of meat that be replaced.

Tine11


We've been reading different history books, cuz mine says slaves in America were subjected to every sort of inhumanity, including death.

candystripper

(in reply to Tine11)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: consent and commitment as law - 11/28/2005 7:07:04 PM   
candystripper


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quote:

no matter what

Sunshine333


There can be no such commitment between thinking adults. Everyone is possessed of sensibilities that would drive them away under the right circumstances.

candystripper

(in reply to sunshine333)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: consent and commitment as law - 11/28/2005 7:16:23 PM   
LadiesBladewing


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I think the issue that the OP is trying to address here is not so much about whether or not someone would stay in -any- circumstance, but whether or not, when the collar is accepted, it is accepted in a state in which, whether or not society condoned it, the individual would feel compelled/duty-bound to cherish the commitment and abide by it -- even if pressured by force of law or society to walk away from the commitment.

When I read this it seemed to me that the crux wasn't about whether an Owner could screw up badly enough to drive a servant away -- it was about whether or not an owner or slave would be willing to defy society if society decided that they were not allowed to continue in their commitment.

Lady Zephyr


quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

quote:

no matter what

Sunshine333


There can be no such commitment between thinking adults. Everyone is possessed of sensibilities that would drive them away under the right circumstances.

candystripper


(in reply to candystripper)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: consent and commitment as law - 11/28/2005 8:22:34 PM   
sunshine333


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that's exactly what i meant, Lady Zephyr. thank you.

it is simply a way or relating to one's collar. as if the collar were legally binding. as if it were ... as it used to be ... illegal to leave one's slave home. if i were a slave, under those conditions, you can bet every fiber of your being that i'd "run away" if, for example, my Owner went mad and began abusing my (our?) children. but even in that circumstance i would be dishonoring my collar and would feel a need to "hide" out of shame and guilt. as opposed to (using that same example) simply saying, "pfft. i'm done with you ... next!" as if the collar had always only been a conditional commitment.

it's more a way of relating to the collar than making up every possible horrible outcome in my mind before accepting it for the reasons that would invalidate it.

humbly,
sunshine

(in reply to LadiesBladewing)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: consent and commitment as law - 11/29/2005 7:27:32 PM   
jamesthehumanrug


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dear, sunshine,greetings ,
and ,i thot you would never ask!:
of course, unless you are completely psychotic; laws ,of your country ,or wherever you are rule you ,but ,if you are bound, to a mistress ,and ,she says shoot ,to kill ;heres the gun, if i give you the signal ,and, you are stuck, in "snuff", and, there is no one else there ,for your mistresses' self defense ;you better do it.
ask ,timothy mcvey, elite-soldier; why; he loved my top ,amy beal, who was kidnapped ,and, chopped, up ,after the bombing, when the fbi did nothing ,to save us ,nothing ,about snuff; would'nt, investigate ,and, there were no more negotiations ,for her, after she was taken,no negotiations possible:so he was ,to blow ,up a fed. building(empty p.o.), if, either one, of us were hurt,cause: we stuck our necks ,out ,to squeel, on "snuff"
,no one was kidding;no one expected,to be snuffed;we were actively reporting,to ;director freeh,d.c. no one was , insane ,or unsure...,
so she was kidnapped.
he did it, but ,he had the philosophy ,of if fbi don't care ,about us ,or our kids; why should we care ,about your fbi kids.this is snuff;what ,about us .this is serious;what about the kids.,and,get sensitive!
wrong sure.amy beal ,said we have a problem,timothy mcvey ,....
he took a step more;sure ,but ,he was an elite soldier(tin soldier), to my dom.
ready ,to die.
i take the same serious attitude.
no one's playing ,and,she expects it,
if your mamma were cornered ,and, said, to you kill ,cause ,you held the gun ;she knows, if one ,of you dies ,so does the ,other.she's well aware.
you do it, or i know:you will be sorry ,for the rest ,of your life,and,the laws never change.
say your top is, in a forced session; a top ,to some politician, and, he dies, and ,her exploiters are sleezy mob ;doing the sex provides biz ,in the bronx ;do you leave her ,to the local cops, and, let her get processed, into prison ,or is there "special consideration" and ,you let the sleeze take care ,of the body.he is dead,and, the family will know, but, not all the dirt and ,no one has ,to get destroyed,understand?you do what you have ,to, in consideration, for your loved-ones' self defense ,and, the laws.
i know they will set her ,up ,for life ,in prison,if you don't take her position, over you ,and, all its consequences very serious.serious top ,or not ....you have, to know ,and ,stick ,with reality.

< Message edited by jamesthehumanrug -- 11/29/2005 7:34:57 PM >


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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: consent and commitment as law - 11/29/2005 7:56:28 PM   
tedibare


Posts: 54
Joined: 8/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

That really wasn't the point, which is that entering into and dissolving a power exchange relationship has no tangible "cost" to it. And as many smarter people than myself has asserted, that which has no cost eventually has no value (ie: most people find it easier to move on after the "bloom is off the rose", than to invest the time and effort in making a relationship work).

John



ummm for SOME people the monetary value has no effect... i would work as hard at my relationship whether i was being paid, would be fined or ANY other monetary issue... if working hard COST me money i would do that... because to me, the relationship is more important... those people who dont want to invest the time and effort to make a relationship work, will not do so even if the divorce would cost them... ususally tho they just stay in the marriage and hate each other if they cant afford the divorce...

as for law verses lifestyle choices/personal beliefs... if the law stated i had to go against my personal beliefs, it wouldnt even be a fair fight... i follow my beliefs/morals first, then the law(fortunately for me, my beliefs are MOSTLY in line with the law, and sometimes are even stricter)... but remember, humans are herd animals and they apparently need someone to tell them what to do, and how to do it...

tedi

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: consent and commitment as law - 11/29/2005 8:09:21 PM   
tedibare


Posts: 54
Joined: 8/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshine333

maybe i'm an idealist but i tend to place a higher value on my commitment to what my collar represents than to actual law. and maybe my question wasn't clear? i am not talking about legalising consensual slavery. i am talking about taking the time and making very sure of the giving or accepting of a collar (of ownership) and then, no matter what ... honoring it. meaning ... not using the excuse that there was no legal binding contract. honoring it for the sake of honor.

humbly,
sunshine



i would never use an excuse like that(well not since i growed up) but i also did NOT include "untill death do us part" in my marriage vows... forever is a very long time... do i hope that my marriage lasts to the end of my days? yes, will i honor it "no matter what"? no... people change, situations change, chit happens... you deal and move on... i took my rose colored glasses off some time ago and broke them... they wasnt helpin nuthin

tedi

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: consent and commitment as law - 11/30/2005 1:06:29 AM   
Phoenxx


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candy dear lady,
Having seen people that go to far in the name of love, and KNOWING people that would cover for teens, you hit a hot button for me.
Plus there was a couple of personal issues that came out.
Just for the record, I think you are a loving and wonderful woman. Now if only you were into poly's and closer.....
And I believe me, there are limits even children can cross.
OK now I'm depressing myself BLEEEEH

(in reply to candystripper)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: consent and commitment as law - 11/30/2005 5:03:06 AM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
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quote:

candy dear lady,
Having seen people that go to far in the name of love, and KNOWING people that would cover for teens, you hit a hot button for me.
Plus there was a couple of personal issues that came out.
Just for the record, I think you are a loving and wonderful woman. Now if only you were into poly's and closer.....
And I believe me, there are limits even children can cross.
OK now I'm depressing myself BLEEEEH

Phoenxx


Tony, absolutely no one can strike fear in Your heart or break it in a nano-moment like Your kid. i KNOW how fortunate i am mine avoided the pitfalls and has grown up to be a self-sufficent, ethical, loving person. It is certainly not because i'm a great parent; it is the roll of the dice as far as i can see. i know of families with two kids; one doing fine and the other at high risk. Cannot explain it except to say there is chaos in the world.

i'm very sorry i made You feel bad with my post.

Now, if only You were single and monogamous, LOL.

candystripper


< Message edited by candystripper -- 11/30/2005 5:04:48 AM >

(in reply to Phoenxx)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: consent and commitment as law - 11/30/2005 5:52:55 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tine11

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

Legalized slavery leaves me very cold and icky feeling.




I personanally think that slavery in the world today bad, when it is outside of the consentual slavery of the BDSM world. Today their are slaves all around the world, and unlike in the early american colenies, slaves were expsive and so taken care of to extent but in a lot of 3rd world countries slaves have become a peice of meat that be replaced. Sadily their is no wayto get rid it ither for everyone in their life could not live without endoring slavery indirectly.




I'm not sure I quite understand what you are saying, Tine11.

One of the subjects I study in history (I'm a historian) is slavery. I've looked at it in the ancient world, Europe, African, Asia, even in native American cultures.

Slavery existed and exists today (non-consensual type) for a variety of reasons, the reasons often determined how slaves were treated as did the individual owners and their economic circumstances.


_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Tine11)
Profile   Post #: 40
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