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RE: Should i bother going to work tomorrow? - 9/9/2008 5:48:20 PM   
Aneirin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

Science touches every single part of out lives. It is infinitely more important that mere religion, which is a "feel good" measure, at best. (self delusion, at worst).  Try to get up in the morning and try to NOT use anything that is the product of scientific research done in the last 75 years. The span of a single human lifetime. I think you'll find, that you can't. From the lights you turn on, the clock by the bedside, the electricity to run them, you shaver, the toothpaste, the water system that supplies you with clean, healthy agua from the tap, the TV you flip on to get the news, the satillites that supply you with accurate information on the next coming hurricane, the food you prepare for breakfast, the car you drive to work (including the metals and plastics and synthetics that make up the car itself, and the clothing you wear) the medications you pop to keep your blood pressure level, or cure that pesky headache, or gave you that wonderful stiffie that your gf enjoyed the night before... and the tools and systems you use in your daily employment... ALL of them are the products of basic scientific reseach...

And that research is then used to fuel an enconomy made of of industries that USE that fucking information as the basis for creating new, better, and more competative products.

So kindly STFU about how you want to kill the god-damned economy, and send the US to the back of the line when it comes to being the leader in new and better ways of doing things, just because you gripe about how the NSF charged you the equivilent of one can of beer in your precious tax money.

Seriously, your luddite attitude is just making you look like an ass.




Oh true, science has helped us all, and without science we would not be where we are today, right or wrong. But the problem I have with science is the belief that it exists for the bettterment of mankind, when quite clearly it is not. My problem with they that like to experiment in things that can cause catastrophe, what gives them that right ? Is it our worship of science has gone so far that scientists can never do any wrong ?

Often it is we are convinced of how wonderous new developments are because of science, when in reality they become superfluous  heaps of junk that if you do not have a science degree, or are a technophile, you cannot fathom.

I refer to all these gadgets we have that promise to do so many different things, gadgets that require endless messing about with, programs and more rograms just to achieve something, that although wonderous at the time, quickly pale into uselessness.

How many here can be bothered with all the multi programs on the electronic gadgets they have, are they that worthwhile ?


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RE: Should i bother going to work tomorrow? - 9/9/2008 7:06:11 PM   
Mercnbeth


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~ Fast Reply ~
 
Anyone know what time this is scheduled to take place? I may have to drive to San Diego and don't want to get stuck in the other 'black hole'; know as the 405/5 in CA.

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RE: Should i bother going to work tomorrow? - 9/9/2008 7:07:19 PM   
GreedyTop


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Merc.. 12:30am, your time

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RE: Should i bother going to work tomorrow? - 9/9/2008 7:08:07 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

Can anyone explain this - is there a physicist in the house?   Doomseday is always around the corner it appears

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24556999/?GT1=43001


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RE: Should i bother going to work tomorrow? - 9/9/2008 7:09:04 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

Merc.. 12:30am, your time
Well damn that's great! If I wake up in a 'black hole' I'll just cancel the trip! Wow - just thought that would make a great Verizon Wireless commercial - Approaching the threshold; "can you hear me now?"

Thanks Greedy!

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 9/9/2008 7:10:20 PM >

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RE: Should i bother going to work tomorrow? - 9/9/2008 7:29:40 PM   
GreedyTop


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

Merc.. 12:30am, your time
Well damn that's great! If I wake up in a 'black hole' I'll just cancel the trip! Wow - just thought that would make a great Verizon Wireless commercial - Approaching the threshold; "can you hear me now?"

Thanks Greedy!


*snort*


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RE: Should i bother going to work tomorrow? - 9/9/2008 7:47:29 PM   
bipolarber


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The thing is, the "Mad Scientist" who wants to take over the world is just a Myth. Mary Shelly probbaly did more to harm science in the Twentieth Century than all the luddites in in UK mining country, and anti-evolutionist nutcases put together. If you want to blame someone for the harm done to mankind, then point yourself directly at the governments that fund scientific research for the specific reason of making better and more deadly weapons. Or, you can blame the people who run off with some new advance in order to make a fast buck... (These are the ones who brought you Thalomide, DDT, asbestos, and any number of other chemical nightmares.)

As far as all the gadgets go, well... who is the one who has the gadget lust so bad that they are out there purchasing the I-phones when they are first introduced, or the blackberries, or the inflatable BBQ that you can use in your pool? Science is a philosophy which strives to know... because knowing, in and of itself, is a good thing. How that knowledge is used is entirely up to the people who come in contact with that knowledge, and are willing to exploit it, for good or bad.

It isn't science that's responsible for these problems, it's our own greed and paranoid fear of the "other."

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RE: Should i bother going to work tomorrow? - 9/9/2008 8:11:32 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

These are the ones who brought you Thalomide, DDT, asbestos, and any number of other chemical nightmares.


Thalomide - Potential cure for myeloma. "Thalomide is an oral drug that has been shown to be highly active against myeloma. Many consider thalidomide to be the first new agent with major anti-myeloma activity in more than 30 years." http://www.multiplemyeloma.org/treatments/3.04.php
DDT - Brought you the Panama Canal. BTW - malaria is making a BIG comeback thanks to it being discontinued. http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-1667273/Malaria-mosquitoes-and-DDT-the.html
Asbestos - Were it sprayed on the beams of the WTC as planned, may have saved the buildings or at least some of the people who died in them. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,244698,00.html

One man's "nightmare" is another's dream.

Other than that - good post!

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RE: Should i bother going to work tomorrow? - 9/9/2008 8:23:47 PM   
samboct


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Actually, Bipolarber- I'm going to disagree with you a bit.  I actually think Mary Shelley's tale was a useful warning.  Science provides tools for us to understand and change the world and like any tool, it can be used for good or evil.  Science has certainly been used for evil- look at the eugenics of the Third Reich, along with the experiments on human beings.  Some of that data is still being used today- the Coast Guard's estimates of how long humans can last in water of various temperatures is largely based on that date IIRC.  While it's certainly tempting to want to say that human beings have to do science, and a monster's science (freezing experiments etc.) isn't science, unfortunately doesn't fly.  Although a lot of the experiments done in the Third Reich were deeply flawed (if you've got to prove something, numbers often get invented- just ask Mendel, Newton, Milliken, etc.) some of that work was well done- if hideous.

In terms of the compounds you mentioned- thalidomide, asbestos, DDT-all of them were thought to be life saving or a dramatic improvement at the time of their introduction. 

Thalidomide worked very well to help combat morning sickness of pregnancy and extreme morning sickness was thought to lead to miscarriages.  Unfortunately, there are two isomers of the compound, and one of them is a nasty teratogen but the other isomer is useful though- it cures leprosy and I think is being investigated for a bunch of other diseases.  The characterization that the compound was two isomers wasn't easy to do and may have needed better characterization tools.

Asbestos- that compound has probably saved far more lives than its cost.  It enabled inexpensive insulation which helped prevent fires (people used to use newspaper!)  In automotive brakes- adding asbestos to the mix produced a brake far more effective than the cloth compounds used previously.  Ever try to stop a Model A with the stock brakes?  Your foot gets real heavy, and not much happens.  Yes, the people that mined the stuff died- so do coal miners, diamond miners, and any other miner that sticks their head below the ground.  The automotive industry still uses the stuff and we still mine it by the way- it's very useful stuff.  Just don't breath the dust.  But the small amounts that the average person would get exposed to is unlikely to have done significant harm- certainly second hand cigarette smoke has done far more damage.

DDT- did wonders to eradicate malaria during WWII.  Stuff is actually pretty benign to mammals- only if you lose a lot of weight in a hurry will you have a problem.  Not so great on the avians though- did a number on eggshells. 

I went through this to show that it wasn't greed that lead people to use these compounds essentially a bit carelessly- it was ignorance.  But I'll give you an example of greed-

My niece came up with a tube of "Permanent balloon"  (I played with the stuff when I was a kid.)  Basically it's a polymer  (probably polystyrene, but with something else mixed in.)with a lot of solvent in it- stuff like toluene based on the smell.  In this country, I'll bet nobody's manufactured the stuff since the 60's due to the legal liability.  (OK, there are some good things that have come out of the legal profession.)  However, in China, they've got no environmental laws to speak of- and they have no problem manufacturing this stuff.  Why is it being imported into this country?  We certainly learned our lessons about keeping solvents away from kids at a young age where the effects can be much longer lasting than an adult- so why is this stuff available?  (and probably in the dollar store.)  Here science has given a clear answer- this stuff is dangerous- keep it out of the hands of kids- but it's clearly being ignored.  

Again, science provides a tool- how society uses that tool is certainly debatable.  If the accelerator in Switzerland does produce a black hole that engulfs the planet- well, yet another example of ignorance.  But the odds of that are really pretty long.  We've got lots of nuclear weapons scattered throughout the globe- that's a much more dangerous threat in any rational sense.

Sam

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RE: Should i bother going to work tomorrow? - 9/9/2008 8:51:40 PM   
Vendaval


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Hey, at least you will know what to blame when the copier gets stuck or the fax machine fails or the old coffee maker in the break room boils over.

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RE: Should i bother going to work tomorrow? - 9/10/2008 5:43:47 AM   
bipolarber


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Well, Hadron's been opereating now for several hours... we're still here.

No black hole
No time loop
No doorway into an alternate univese via which Daleks attack the Earth. (darn)
No ignition of the Earth's atmosphere.

Nuthin' but some really cool science goin' on, that will teach us more about the beginning of the universe... sans religious BS.

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RE: Should i bother going to work tomorrow? - 9/10/2008 6:20:22 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

Well, Hadron's been opereating now for several hours... we're still here.

No black hole
No time loop
No doorway into an alternate univese via which Daleks attack the Earth. (darn)
No ignition of the Earth's atmosphere.

Nuthin' but some really cool science goin' on, that will teach us more about the beginning of the universe... sans religious BS.


Yeah, no big deal, just a "tab" for $15 B and counting.

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RE: Should i bother going to work tomorrow? - 9/10/2008 6:32:56 AM   
bipolarber


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Yeah, most of which is being financed by the EU, so STFU, will you?

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RE: Should i bother going to work tomorrow? - 9/10/2008 6:35:18 AM   
scifi1133


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

Well, Hadron's been opereating now for several hours... we're still here.

No black hole
No time loop
No doorway into an alternate univese via which Daleks attack the Earth. (darn)
No ignition of the Earth's atmosphere.

Nuthin' but some really cool science goin' on, that will teach us more about the beginning of the universe... sans religious BS.


Yeah, no big deal, just a "tab" for $15 B and counting.
They have not collided anything yet. They just sent it in one direction. clockwise to be exact. They will send another beam counter clockwise soon...then in a few months if all goes well, they will collide the protons. THEN the world will end lol.

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RE: Should i bother going to work tomorrow? - 9/10/2008 7:02:02 AM   
GreedyTop


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cool.. so we have time for that road trip :) 

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RE: Should i bother going to work tomorrow? - 9/10/2008 8:21:49 AM   
sappatoti


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Absolutely, but you must hurry up. I'm thinking of leaving ASAP anyway.

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RE: Should i bother going to work tomorrow? - 9/10/2008 8:28:44 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

Yeah, most of which is being financed by the EU, so STFU, will you?


Bipolar, we can revisit this thread in a year.
I wonder if the "excitement" will still be here?
"Did they find anything yet?"
"Nope, they're still doing "experiments."
"They have made one *discovery* though!"
"Oh, what's that!?"
"They'll be needing another $5 B of the Taxpayer's money to keep going for the next two years!"
"And lots of scientists are buying houses in the area, they figure they can set up shop for the next 30-50 years."
"Compliments of Uncle Sucker."

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RE: Should i bother going to work tomorrow? - 9/10/2008 8:32:58 AM   
velvetears


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i like your idea Merc about a blackhole day lol.... doubt that would fly at my job though

It's difficult as a layperson to determine what is important, essential, superfluous in terms of scientific research.  i am sure there are incentives to each individual to keep doing what they're doing and their motive isn't the betterment of mankind but their own pocketbooks. But that doesn't negate that good results can come from what they do either. It's all a double edged sword.  

Someone made a comment about the lack of scientists in this country.  How can we have future scientists when there is a shortage of science teachers to hand down that knowledge?  Pay teachers a decent salary, get quality educators and perhaps that number will rise.

Personally i think all scientists should study ethics and there should be ethics committees formed to determine whether the decisions, while perhaps helping to further research in science, may not be in the best interest for the individual. This is especially applicable in medicine. That doctor who wants the stage four lung cancer patient to try a new clinical trial of chemo drugs is more concerned with getting more data for his research than the quality or quantity of your life.  Scientists can be as selfish and shortsighted as the rest of us. 


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RE: Should i bother going to work tomorrow? - 9/10/2008 8:42:41 AM   
popeye1250


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Velvet, we don't have a "shortage" of scientists in this country, companies and unis import them from foreign countries by the tens of thousands on those "H1b" visa programs and pay them peanuts!
Why would an American student want to get a PhD just so they can work 80 hours a week for $45k?
I was taught that you go to college so that you *don't* have to work 80 hours a week for only $45k!
The "global economy" raises it's ugly head again!

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RE: Should i bother going to work tomorrow? - 9/10/2008 9:14:20 AM   
VirginPotty


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Why wait until Thurs?  Why couldn't the world end on Mon. before the work week began????    Too close to the weekend!

< Message edited by VirginPotty -- 9/10/2008 9:15:09 AM >


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