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DarkSpark -> Power (11/28/2005 7:23:35 PM)

I want to share an understanding of Power that I appreciate. Power is the ability to stay in your centre no matter what is going on outside of yourself, and with that, the ability to know what you want and the steps necessary to create it. If you are in your centre then Play is about an expression of you, weather top or bottom it is your choice and your experience. If you are giving away power to another consciously, then applying this premise, you are therefore ironically in a Powerful place. Likewise if you feel as a top that you need to force the issue the question do you really have Power?



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Power (11/28/2005 7:28:31 PM)

This is why I continue to repeat:

It's not about power, it's about authority.



IronBear -> RE: Power (11/28/2005 7:50:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSpark

I want to share an understanding of Power that I appreciate. Power is the ability to stay in your centre no matter what is going on outside of yourself, and with that, the ability to know what you want and the steps necessary to create it. If you are in your centre then Play is about an expression of you, weather top or bottom it is your choice and your experience. If you are giving away power to another consciously, then applying this premise, you are therefore ironically in a Powerful place. Likewise if you feel as a top that you need to force the issue the question do you really have Power?


I would say that you are refering to being centered in your Wa.. When centered there, nothing can harm you even if the body dies the spirit still lives. Thus I was taught by my late Sensai.

I agree with what LA says, it is not about power but authority. If you do not have authority, all the power in the world is of no use to you. Please allow me to deminstrate it thus:

Postulate
Any required Change may be effected by the application of the proper kind and degree of Force in the proper manner through the proper medium to the proper object.

Ergo

The first requisite for causing any change is thorough qualitative and quantitative understanding of the conditions.

And

The second requisite of causing any change is the practical ability to set in right motion the necessary forces.

However

A Man whose conscious will; is at odds with his True Will is wasting his strength. He cannot hope to influence his environment efficiently. (AC)

Thus you can see it requires power (conscious will) to make changes provided you have the authority (True Will) to do so.




slavejali -> RE: Power (11/28/2005 8:15:09 PM)

This is from a chapter of the Mahabharata, this text is thousands of years old and originates in India:

He who does not hate illumination, attachment and delusion when they are present, nor longs for them when they disappear; who is seated like one unconcerned, being situated beyond these material reactions of the modes of nature, who remains firm, knowing that the modes alone are active; who regards alike pleasure and pain, and looks on a clod, a stone and a piece of gold with an equal eye; who is wise and holds praise and blame to be the same; who is unchanged in honor and dishonor, who treats friend and foe alike, who has abandoned all fruitive undertakings--such a man is said to have transcended the modes of nature.

I guess that would be a powerful position to be in *grin*

Your topic made me think of that - i think you have come to the same understanding pretty much.

Note: The Mahabharata (composed between 300 BC and 300 AD) has the honor of being the longest epic in world literature, 100,000 2-line stanzas (although the most recent critical edition edits this down to about 88,000), making it eight times as long as Homer's Iliad and Odyssey together.



ICGsteve -> RE: Power (11/28/2005 8:16:20 PM)

quote:

It's not about power, it's about authority.


So BDSM in your view is about authority games? No, it is about playing with power. Authority is the recognition of ones power by others, but this term means little in BDSM because the exchange of power does not in anyway diminish the power of the submissive. The submissive grants power to the dominant and always has the right to take it back. The dominant is only dominant because the submissive makes it so, thus constantly reaffirmming the power of the submissive. The submissive does not so much recognize the power of the dominant as make the dominant. The dominant can go around all day spouting off with his chest out but without one willing to submit, one to grant him is dominant position, he is not dominant and he has no authority.



IronBear -> RE: Power (11/28/2005 8:28:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ICGsteve

quote:

It's not about power, it's about authority.


So BDSM in your view is about authority games? No, it is about playing with power. Authority is the recognition of ones power by others, but this term means little in BDSM because the exchange of power does not in anyway diminish the power of the submissive. The submissive grants power to the dominant and always has the right to take it back. The dominant is only dominant because the submissive makes it so, thus constantly reaffirmming the power of the submissive. The submissive does not so much recognize the power of the dominant as make the dominant. The dominant can go around all day spouting off with his chest out but without one willing to submit, one to grant him is dominant position, he is not dominant and he has no authority.


If you look at the surface, what you say aoppears to be correct. However the knowledge of power, and the ability to wield power comes with the authority of knowing your abilities, strengths and weaknesses. I dont refer to just BDSM of which I am still a rooky, but the wieldong and use of power in all aspects of life is far greater than that in one application. It is not necessary for all and sundry to recognise your power only those with whom you choose to associate with. Power and authority are not something which you can don or take off. You can suppress it so others dont mark you and you may be left alone in your solitude if that is what you desire or it can radiate with the attention grabbing aura like a strong perfume or scent. many people will see, feel or sence it about you whilst others will not, These things are irrelevant. BTW one who truely has Authority and ability to wield power has no need to "go around all day spouting off with his chest out", nor does he go about looking for someone to submit to him. Those who are attracted to his power and authority will gravitate to him, those who are attracted to the power and authority of others will gravitate to them.. That is not just common sence but a law of nature ~ Like calls to like. Personally I prefer slaves rather than subs as the D/s dynamic is foreign to me where as the dynamic between a kajira and a Master is familiar ground.



DarkSpark -> RE: Power (11/28/2005 9:09:29 PM)

I have found it interesting that the words I left were about Power. The response has been about what people see in relation to using Power. It is a different thing. I understand what Iron Beer is saying. For me it translates as know thyself. And know also the given context or circumstance that you are in for that particular experience. For remember they are always changing. Every moment is new.



sub4hire -> RE: Power (11/28/2005 9:27:35 PM)

quote:

Likewise if you feel as a top that you need to force the issue the question do you really have Power?


I don't care to get into the power vs authority debate. Though I did care to comment on the above quote.

In my mind a top never has any power. They play and leave the scene...perhap's to never look back. How can that be power of any sort?



IronBear -> RE: Power (11/28/2005 9:29:06 PM)

quote:

I have found it interesting that the words I left were about Power. The response has been about what people see in relation to using Power. It is a different thing.


Exactly. I dips me lid to you dark Spark.

To Know! To Will! To Dare! To keep Silent! The four keys to power and the correct use of it. It is essential to know and understand power and authority before you can use it and use it well. Many people seek power and few find it. Conversly, the more you understand about power, the less you wish to use it. The most powerfull people I know rarely use their power but often just their presence is sufficient.




ICGsteve -> RE: Power (11/28/2005 9:37:17 PM)

quote:

have found it interesting that the words I left were about Power. The response has been about what people see in relation to using Power


Well, Duh. BDSM does not exist within an individual, it is an exchange between two or more people. BDSM is about power in action, about using power. Static power within an individual, if such a thing even exists, has nothing to do with relationships, with power exchanges. If one wants to talk about power in the context of BDSM one can only be talking about using power.

Yes, one must know themselves if they want to participate in a high level power exchange, and one could make the arguement that one who knows themselves is operating at a higher level of energy consciousness than one who does not. Thing is the definition of power always includes that which is exterior. I don't think that it is possible to call something which is all interior such as consciousness an aspect of power.



jamesthehumanrug -> RE: Power (11/28/2005 9:46:58 PM)

dear dark-spark,
greetings<

"'LOVE'....,now,that's a lot ,of power,to give ,to someone.
question is: do you really want....,to give all, that power,to someone?"

this is a special, intimate quote ,
by someone i would die for,
and, i ,always remembered everyone,of her words ,but ,
she was never found,since my problem ,with snuff.....



TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Power (11/28/2005 9:56:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

This is why I continue to repeat:

It's not about power, it's about authority.


Pearls before swine...

Taggard



IronBear -> RE: Power (11/29/2005 12:08:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ICGsteve

quote:

have found it interesting that the words I left were about Power. The response has been about what people see in relation to using Power


Well, Duh. BDSM does not exist within an individual, it is an exchange between two or more people. BDSM is about power in action, about using power. Static power within an individual, if such a thing even exists, has nothing to do with relationships, with power exchanges. If one wants to talk about power in the context of BDSM one can only be talking about using power.

Yes, one must know themselves if they want to participate in a high level power exchange, and one could make the arguement that one who knows themselves is operating at a higher level of energy consciousness than one who does not. Thing is the definition of power always includes that which is exterior. I don't think that it is possible to call something which is all interior such as consciousness an aspect of power.



Since when did the OP even mention BDSM. The discussion is about power and thus authority. That such power is used within a BDSM arena is a moot point.



IronBear -> RE: Power (11/29/2005 12:11:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

This is why I continue to repeat:

It's not about power, it's about authority.


But LA, Power and Authority are interlinked, they come together when one is used. I think you'll find what I have posted demonstrates this adequately. Remember that BDSM is not the whole reason for living there are so many other other areas in which the power/authority dynamic is in play.



ICGsteve -> RE: Power (11/29/2005 12:32:01 AM)

quote:

Since when did the OP even mention BDSM


The OP was posted in this, the general BDSM forum, and by this action the author is claiming this as a BDSM subject. If it had not been intended as such it should have been posted in the "off topic" forum. The original post also clearly mentions power in the context of BDSM play when he talks of play as tops and bottoms, thus again making the discusion of power one of power in BDSM even though the four letters "BDSM" were not used.



IronBear -> RE: Power (11/29/2005 2:14:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ICGsteve

quote:

Since when did the OP even mention BDSM


The OP was posted in this, the general BDSM forum, and by this action the author is claiming this as a BDSM subject. If it had not been intended as such it should have been posted in the "off topic" forum. The original post also clearly mentions power in the context of BDSM play when he talks of play as tops and bottoms, thus again making the discusion of power one of power in BDSM even though the four letters "BDSM" were not used.


Of course you are correct regarding the reference to Tops and Bottoms. A fact I overlooked, perhaps because I can see the wider issues here regarding both power and authority. However that does not make your earlier statement regarding power in a Top/Botton BDSM situation and more valid, I still find it wrong. However that is my perception and understanding but you may have far more experience in the BDSM power dynamic than I do (Well 99% of the membership probably has far more practical experience in that area than I so you are pretty safe).




fldrkhorse -> RE: Power (11/29/2005 3:09:50 AM)

Power, I am fascinated by this term. Power is a supernatural internal force, almost undefinable because it's different for each individual. It is not something one says they have, it is something others recognize, acknowledge, and choose to submit to (either in fear or in awe). Power is usually recognized by our senses as confidence, self control, wisdom, and /or spiritual growth.



sweetpettjenny -> RE: Power (11/29/2005 3:11:47 AM)

everyone on either side of a D/s relationship has power, its all in what you do with it.



candystripper -> RE: Power (11/29/2005 5:03:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSpark

I want to share an understanding of Power that I appreciate. Power is the ability to stay in your centre no matter what is going on outside of yourself, and with that, the ability to know what you want and the steps necessary to create it. If you are in your centre then Play is about an expression of you, weather top or bottom it is your choice and your experience. If you are giving away power to another consciously, then applying this premise, you are therefore ironically in a Powerful place. Likewise if you feel as a top that you need to force the issue the question do you really have Power?


quote:

I would say that you are refering to being centered in your Wa.. When centered there, nothing can harm you even if the body dies the spirit still lives. Thus I was taught by my late Sensai.

I agree with what LA says, it is not about power but authority. If you do not have authority, all the power in the world is of no use to you. Please allow me to deminstrate it thus:

Postulate
Any required Change may be effected by the application of the proper kind and degree of Force in the proper manner through the proper medium to the proper object.

Ergo

The first requisite for causing any change is thorough qualitative and quantitative understanding of the conditions.

And

The second requisite of causing any change is the practical ability to set in right motion the necessary forces.

However

A Man whose conscious will; is at odds with his True Will is wasting his strength. He cannot hope to influence his environment efficiently. (AC)

Thus you can see it requires power (conscious will) to make changes provided you have the authority (True Will) to do so.

IronBear


i greatly enjoyed both the descriptions of power You have given, gentlemen. i have always -- from a very young age -- known i had power. i could alter my environment (some) and avoid harm (some) by using my mouth and intelligence, as well as snuffing out that adults do not like their bad behavior reported to other adults.

As i grew, even during the 15 years i spent married, so did my repetorie of behaviors i could call upon to exercise my power. The mere fact that i survived is a testament to my power.

On and on...the power itself grew with the successes i had in using these behaviors to effectuate greater and greater change in my environment and accomplishing my most important life tasks.

Yes, i am a submissive, and yes, i seek a Dom or Master, but IMO submission is an act of power; changing one's head space; seeking what i want rather than being shamed out of trying for it; not settling for a Man who cannot fulfill me. And on and on.

candystripper



candystripper -> RE: Power (11/29/2005 5:22:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

This is why I continue to repeat:

It's not about power, it's about authority.



quote:

But LA, Power and Authority are interlinked, they come together when one is used. I think you'll find what I have posted demonstrates this adequately. Remember that BDSM is not the whole reason for living there are so many other other areas in which the power/authority dynamic is in play.

IronBear


Respectfully Sir i disagree. i have known many people in a position of authority over me who had no personal power; they invariably tried to use fear tactics to obtain the behavior they desired. Since -- in my unusual circumstances -- i was fearless of them, they could not control me unless they actually laid hands on me. As i grew older, the possibility of "forcing" me to do anything by dint of physical force became less likely. The nuns could not beat me down once i became 12 yrs old or so; and in high school i carried a switchblade, which i used more than once.

These days, alot of the physical force i had at 20 has ebbed but in its place are a myriad of behaviors i can use to defend myself/avenge myself or someone i love; create peace and repell drama and bulls**t, and so forth. And this seems to increase expoentially with each passig year.

i no longer submit due to force to any authority, not even the law. It happens i have a strong moral code that prevents me from wrecking havoc, but there are circumstances in which i have broken and will break the law with impunity. There are circumstances i could posit in which i would commit murder, and i would not be convicted. There are circumstances in which i am just a plain scofflaw. My Church does not hold any authority over me, apart from administering the sacraments. Those to whom i am bound and whose well-being is as important as my own were chosen well and return that love; there is no "authority" in being tethered to destinies other than one's own out of love.

Someday soon, i will hopefully find my One, and then i think He will have authority. But it will be only what authority i grant Him, subject to withdrawal.

i am truely a free woman.

candystripper



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