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RE: What if ? - 9/12/2008 4:29:55 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Georgia's problems started when they started murdering Russian citizens and thinking the US would come to its aid if necessary.
 

Nod.
I read that this morning.  I know it's probably not a popular thought on a forum like this, but I have pretty much got a lot of time for Putin personally.
 
the.dark.

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RE: What if ? - 9/12/2008 4:38:52 AM   
NeedToUseYou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

What if the west laid down it's arms in countries where it is involved and showed the people of that country another side of the west, the caring side, what do you think would be the result ?
I think we'd become less powerful and more respected, which is a form of power, though readily depleted if not cared for.

Do you think with our vast reserves of expertise and equipment, we could be doing something better than killing ?
I think we as a species probably don't need any more sophisticated killing methods, so shifting 90% of that entire budget to something worthwhile that could deter conflict would be a better survival strategy than enhancing our ability to kill each other more efficiently. So, yes, as there is absolutely no reason a single person on this planet is starving, or without heating. I was just reading about in India, they are building holes that gather household shit, and pig shit, and produce methane for cooking, and highly enriched fertilizer, for virtually no cost out of locally available materials. This stops people from cutting all the trees down, which stop erosion, which saves like 2 hours a day from gathering wood, and decreases exposure to pollution. A 100,000 strong army specializing in building such things could turn a nation from poverty to at least human living conditions in short order, but we prefer to blow shit up. Lovely.

If we adopted this role as the caring west, do you think we could make the world a better place ?
Humans are designed to either build or destroy, we can be fulfilled doing either, one path is non-constructive the other defines what is necessary to advance. Advancement is in my mind virtually equivalent to goodness. Destruction is generally evil unless destroying means of destruction. We could in a few decades if we chose radically change for the good the whole planet.

Why are we so aggressive ?
Fear, legitimate threat, power lust, ignorance, paranoia, delusion, ego, history, manipulation, desperation. Ultimately I think a bit of aggression and lust to destroy and control is hard wired into all of us. It's the lack of admitting we have these flaws that keeps us from rising above them, that whole thing jesus talked about and sin, we are all born with the desire to sin, admitting it is the only way to resist it. Never trust anyone that says they don't have sinful thoughts, as that is the person, nation, group, that is wallowing in its own perverse motivations. Perfection is a myth. Women fart, Men want their balls licked.

So, to answer you question why are we so aggressive? It's because we can't let go of the concept that we are above it all, and thus ignore data to the contrary as an aggregate group. This denial of aggression, allows aggression to be maintained. As long as you can convince the populace(enough of them anyway) they are peaceful, and good, and the government is a reflection of their superior character then nothing will be done to stop impossible aggression.

I think its broad based promoted mental illness. Look at N. Korea, to see the power of group think, and blunt manipulation. While that is an extreme example much subtler examples occur everywhere.




Anyway, I'm tired, hope that made sense at all. ramble, ramble, ramble.

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RE: What if ? - 9/12/2008 6:03:08 AM   
OneMoreWaste


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

i think it's interesting that the OP referred to "The West", and several here have responded only about why "The U.S can't do ________".   

It's like having a conversation with a self-obsessed person sometimes....mayhaps the xenophobes run amok.


That's because the concept of "The West" as a homogenous, unified entity is hard to envision, much less theorize about. Switzerland is considered part of the West. Does this apply to them?

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RE: What if ? - 9/12/2008 6:11:49 AM   
kittinSol


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Switzerland lives on its own planet - it's in landlocked Europe, but it only participates in world politics in that it hosts the UN, its agencies and NGOs on its soil (Geneva)- Switzerland is, literally, cloud cuckoo land: when you live over there there's a huge disconnect with what's going on in the world outside. Not unlike being in the United States, just a lot richer.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 9/12/2008 6:12:32 AM >


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RE: What if ? - 9/12/2008 6:24:34 AM   
corysub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

What if the west laid down it's arms in countries where it is involved and showed the people of that country another side of the west, the caring side, what do you think would be the result ?

Do you think with our vast reserves of expertise and equipment, we could be doing something better than killing ?

If we adopted this role as the caring west, do you think we could make the world a better place ?

Why are we so aggressive ?



Don't agree with the premise of the comment "why are we so aggressive".  What country in the West has built an Empire since WW2.  Why aren't there liberal threads attacking Russia for it's incursions and threats? 

Put down our arms?  In what countries?  I think we need more definition. 

England looked the other way, and people were enslaved by Nazi Germany.
The west looked away, put there arms away, and Russia enslaved half of Europe.
The West looked away, and Communists took over China...
The West looked away, and North Korea attacked South Korea
The West looked away, and we saw the killing fields of Cambodia
The West looked away, and Iraq attacked Kuwait,
The West looked away, and half of Africa is in turmoil,

What would happen if we put down arms and looked away?

The West looked away, and the Soviet Empire re-emerged stronger, with the scars
of the past healed stronger than the original flesh..

The West looked away, and the middle east is in flames after the Iranian attack on Israel.

The West looked away, and Muslim radical finally take over Manila, after 25 years of terrorism.

The West looked away, and the Turkish democracy is overthrown for an Iranian style of Theocracy...

The West looked away and radical Muslims eliminate all conservative opposition and take over Indonesia..

Sorry...but the world is not "Alice in Wonderland"  or that cute little place in the "Wizard of Oz".  It's not a nice place and only the strength of a powerful military
will allow our way of life to continue as Europeans discovered not too many years ago.


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RE: What if ? - 9/12/2008 6:56:40 AM   
Marc2b


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Slaveboyforyou said:
quote:

As for our aggression, we aren't that far removed from chimps running around the jungle clubbing each other for food and females.


Vendaval said:
quote:

Short answer, humans are top level predators, our eyes face forward and we have long canines. We evolved from apes and early homids that used agression for territorial disputes, hunting and obtaining breedable females.


It is gratifying to know the I am not the only one who understands this.

Meatcleaver said:
quote:

To quote Chomsky "If you want to stop terrorism, stop participating in it."


To quote Marc2b, "if you want to stop being an idiot, stop reading Chomsky."

Okay, okay... I’m sorry I called you an idiot... but every time somebody references or quotes that moronic, hate filled, dipshit... it irks me.

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RE: What if ? - 9/12/2008 6:59:01 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

What if the west laid down it's arms in countries where it is involved and showed the people of that country another side of the west, the caring side, what do you think would be the result ?

Do you think with our vast reserves of expertise and equipment, we could be doing something better than killing ?

If we adopted this role as the caring west, do you think we could make the world a better place ?

Why are we so aggressive ?



Don't agree with the premise of the comment "why are we so aggressive".  What country in the West has built an Empire since WW2.  Why aren't there liberal threads attacking Russia for it's incursions and threats? 

The USA. You don't need troops on the ground to controlnations and commerce, Britain proved that.
 

England looked the other way, and people were enslaved by Nazi Germany.

Er. The USA did. It was Britain that declared war on Germany!!!!!

The west looked away, put there arms away, and Russia enslaved half of Europe.

No it didn't, it couldn't do anything about it.

The West looked away, and Communists took over China...

China had a revolution, much of the instability in China that led up to the revolution was first caused by the west, followed by Japan and then the west again.

The West looked away, and North Korea attacked South Korea

It was a civil war. Only fools get involved by taking sides in an internal conflict.

The West looked away, and we saw the killing fields of Cambodia

The USA bombed Cambodia to kingdom come and back and caused the conditions that allowed the Khmer Rouge to take over.

The West looked away, and Iraq attacked Kuwait,

Kuwait was a dictatorship every bit as much as Iraq and the US gave Iraq a nod a wink that it could take over Kuwait. In the mean time, the US changed its mind about its Iraqi alie.

The West looked away, and half of Africa is in turmoil,

The west (Britain France et al) that caused the turmoil in Africa.

What would happen if we put down arms and looked away?

No one is saying anyone should put down their arms and look the other way. It is a matter of not using them for imperial jollies.

The West looked away, and the Soviet Empire re-emerged stronger, with the scars
of the past healed stronger than the original flesh..

Huh? Its never re-emerged!

The West looked away, and the middle east is in flames after the Iranian attack on Israel.

Huh? What Iranian attack on Israel?

The West looked away, and Muslim radical finally take over Manila, after 25 years of terrorism.

?????

The West looked away, and the Turkish democracy is overthrown for an Iranian style of Theocracy...

When?

The West looked away and radical Muslims eliminate all conservative opposition and take over Indonesia..

86% of Indonesians just happen to be Muslim and Indonesis is the world's largest muslim state.

Sorry...but the world is not "Alice in Wonderland"  or that cute little place in the "Wizard of Oz".  It's not a nice place and only the strength of a powerful military
will allow our way of life to continue as Europeans discovered not too many years ago.

I think you are in Wonderland



< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/12/2008 7:00:18 AM >


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RE: What if ? - 9/12/2008 7:03:06 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

To quote Marc2b, "if you want to stop being an idiot, stop reading Chomsky."

Okay, okay... I’m sorry I called you an idiot... but every time somebody references or quotes that moronic, hate filled, dipshit... it irks me.


And just what is moronic about the sentiment that if you want to stop terrorism you should stop participating in it?

I know he isn't liked in America, America can't take serious criticism from its own citizens.

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RE: What if ? - 9/12/2008 7:43:00 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

And just what is moronic about the sentiment that if you want to stop terrorism you should stop participating in it?


Setting aside the whole argument of what constitutes terrorism, it is simply daft to believe that non-violence will automatically result in reciprocation. History has bitch slapped that silly notion time and time again.


quote:

I know he isn't liked in America,

Actually he is adored by a significant portion of the American population (the dumb-ass demographic, as I like to call them).

quote:

America can't take serious criticism from its own citizens.


Oh puleeeezzzzze! You can’t turn on the t.v. or the radio or open a newspaper or magazine with seeing Americans criticizing their country – serious or otherwise.

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RE: What if ? - 9/12/2008 8:09:42 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

And just what is moronic about the sentiment that if you want to stop terrorism you should stop participating in it?


Setting aside the whole argument of what constitutes terrorism, it is simply daft to believe that non-violence will automatically result in reciprocation. History has bitch slapped that silly notion time and time again.



Terrorism exists in the middle east because of constant western interference. The debate about what constitutes terrorism is really irrelevant. Western violence gave birth to middle eastern violence and western violence continues in the middle east because the middle east has resources the west wants. I don't believe for a minute that if the west suddenly stops its violence in the middle east, the middle east would suddenly become peaceful, we have stirred the pot too much for that but the west leaving middle eastern people to model their own destiny would be a start.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/12/2008 8:10:29 AM >


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RE: What if ? - 9/12/2008 10:04:02 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Terrorism exists in the middle east because of constant western interference.


quote:

Western violence gave birth to middle eastern violence


We heading toward an argument here that we’ve had before.

As for the rest... it’s time for lunch, maybe later.

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RE: What if ? - 9/12/2008 3:23:07 PM   
ScooterTrash


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Terrorism exists in the middle east because of constant western interference.
MC, I think historically the Middle East had folks running after each other with clubs and swords, centuries before outside interference. I suspect left alone, they would just fight with each other....or isn't that kind of what they are still doing, even under occupation?

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RE: What if ? - 9/12/2008 8:13:28 PM   
Aneirin


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So, it would seem despite all our modern advances in all those things worthwhile, we are on a path of self destruction. Ever since the first native raiding party armed with sticks at the dawn of mankind, we have learned nothing, we still kill and look forward to killing, it is just our weapons are a bit more sophisticated, but with the modern sophistication, our judgement day draws nearer quicker. The more potent the weapon, the quicker we will meet our doom. What a complete waste, you would think we , that is human kind might have learned killing just leads to more killing and once that ball is in motion, it is nigh on difficult to stop.

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RE: What if ? - 9/13/2008 4:07:59 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Terrorism exists in the middle east because of constant western interference.
MC, I think historically the Middle East had folks running after each other with clubs and swords, centuries before outside interference. I suspect left alone, they would just fight with each other....or isn't that kind of what they are still doing, even under occupation?


You could say the same about the west.

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RE: What if ? - 9/15/2008 7:19:37 AM   
Irishknight


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First off, if we laid down our arms and sent people to try to help them build a better world, THOSE PEOPLE WOULD BE MURDERED BY THE VERY PEOPLE THEY WERE TRYING TO HELP.  Then we would have to pick up our arms and fight some more, then lay them down to get more people murdered, etc and so on.
Truth be told, the west has tried to lend aid in many different ways and we get bit in the ass for it quite often.  It wouldn't matter to some of these people if we were building each of them a mansion filled with everything they ever wanted.  We would still be seen as evil. 

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