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Opinion: politics of fear vs. politics of guilt - 9/12/2008 7:03:54 PM   
fearghus


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Joined: 9/10/2008
Status: offline 		One party wants your money and control through the politics of fear.  The attitude is expressed in engendering an "us vs. them" mentality both internally and externally.  If you let 'them' send over terrorists and bombs and such - they will take over 'us'.

If you let 'them' corrupt our way of life from within, then there will be nothing left of 'us'.

So, they want your money to increase suvellance, troops, border guards, and the like to protect 'us' from them.

The politics of fear.  And you give up control to it.

The other party wants to pass legilation that is 'good' for you be removing any responsibility from you to keep you safe.  You want your children to be safe, don't you?  Even if it means that it is the government's hand that raises and protects them.  This is done through fines, fees, taxes, and social subsidies.

When the government takes over health care - and other areas that used to be under citizans' control ... how many years before even the best meaning intensions become corrupt and bloated?  How long before the people have had enough freedoms stripped to no longer be a threat to the powers that be?

But it is for your own good, and the good of your children.  You don't *hate* children, do you?

The politics of guilt.  And you give up control to it.

This is all a vast oversimplification, of course.
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RE: Opinion: politics of fear vs. politics of guilt - 9/12/2008 9:01:20 PM   
cloudboy


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To me fear and guilt are best merged in a theocracy. Others are hedons. Different cultures or nations are threatening. And, there is only one true way, which if you don't accept it --- makes you guilty.

The closest thing that we have to that in the US is the Religious Right.

(in reply to fearghus)
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RE: Opinion: politics of fear vs. politics of guilt - 9/12/2008 11:45:05 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
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From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		That's why I'll be voting for the Constitution Party.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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RE: Opinion: politics of fear vs. politics of guilt - 9/13/2008 5:02:57 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
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From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		and one group views govt as a religious revival, another as a group 12 step self actualization seminar.

I somehow can manage my money, resources better then anyone else.  Hey Popeye, lets mismanage 30 billion $... so we can get bailed out....

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RE: Opinion: politics of fear vs. politics of guilt - 9/13/2008 6:01:03 AM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


To me fear and guilt are best merged in a theocracy. Others are hedons. Different cultures or nations are threatening. And, there is only one true way, which if you don't accept it --- makes you guilty.

The closest thing that we have to that in the US is the Religious Right.



           Oh puh-lease, Clouds.  That is just ignorant.  If it wasn't for white, middle/upper class liberal guilt, the Democrats wouldn't have a platform.

        

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Opinion: politics of fear vs. politics of guilt - 9/13/2008 6:32:41 AM   
OneMoreWaste


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fearghus
When the government takes over health care - and other areas that used to be under citizans' control ... how many years before even the best meaning intensions become corrupt and bloated? 


If you're saying the current private health care system isn't corrupt and bloated, then I wanna live where you're living, because here in the States it's a damned train wreck. NOT to say that the .gov would do it better, just that there would be no support for socializing it if it were providing adequate care. I'd say that the citizens lost control of health care some time in the 1930s.

(in reply to fearghus)
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RE: Opinion: politics of fear vs. politics of guilt - 9/13/2008 6:57:32 AM   
fearghus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OneMoreWaste

quote:

ORIGINAL: fearghus
When the government takes over health care - and other areas that used to be under citizans' control ... how many years before even the best meaning intensions become corrupt and bloated? 


If you're saying the current private health care system isn't corrupt and bloated, then I wanna live where you're living, because here in the States it's a damned train wreck. NOT to say that the .gov would do it better, just that there would be no support for socializing it if it were providing adequate care. I'd say that the citizens lost control of health care some time in the 1930s.



Oh, I firmly agree on every point you make.  Just saying that socializing it would make the problems worse rather than better!

(in reply to OneMoreWaste)
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RE: Opinion: politics of fear vs. politics of guilt - 9/13/2008 7:09:51 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fearghus

quote:

ORIGINAL: OneMoreWaste


If you're saying the current private health care system isn't corrupt and bloated, then I wanna live where you're living, because here in the States it's a damned train wreck. NOT to say that the .gov would do it better, just that there would be no support for socializing it if it were providing adequate care. I'd say that the citizens lost control of health care some time in the 1930s.



Oh, I firmly agree on every point you make.  Just saying that socializing it would make the problems worse rather than better!


This goes against all the evidence, socialized medicine in the developed world, in all comparable evidence and every statistic, far exceeds private medicine.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/13/2008 7:10:23 AM >

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RE: Opinion: politics of fear vs. politics of guilt - 9/13/2008 7:13:40 AM   
fearghus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: fearghus

quote:

ORIGINAL: OneMoreWaste


If you're saying the current private health care system isn't corrupt and bloated, then I wanna live where you're living, because here in the States it's a damned train wreck. NOT to say that the .gov would do it better, just that there would be no support for socializing it if it were providing adequate care. I'd say that the citizens lost control of health care some time in the 1930s.



Oh, I firmly agree on every point you make.  Just saying that socializing it would make the problems worse rather than better!


This goes against all the evidence, socialized medicine in the developed world, in all comparable evidence and every statistic, far exceeds private medicine.


Not when factored into the context of corruption level in government and tax ratio.  I am sure you can provide much data to support your theory, and I trust that you understand I could cite just as many examples.  However, neither of us would convince the other that we are right - so the exercise becomes rather moot.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Opinion: politics of fear vs. politics of guilt - 9/13/2008 7:21:59 AM   
candystripper


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quote:

When the government takes over health care - and other areas that used to be under citizans' control ... how many years before even the best meaning intensions become corrupt and bloated? (Excerpt.)

fearghus


Obama's proposal does not eliminate private insurance; it supplements it with government subsidized insurance for the uninsured, especially children.  If you honestly think people have had control over insurance companies in the US since like, I dunno, the Civil War, you are mistaken.  Like mostcorporations, they are generally accountable only to their shareholders and have few effective limits placed on them byt he states, which regulate them -- or do not, as the case may be.
 
candystripper 

(in reply to fearghus)
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RE: Opinion: politics of fear vs. politics of guilt - 9/13/2008 7:33:03 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fearghus

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


This goes against all the evidence, socialized medicine in the developed world, in all comparable evidence and every statistic, far exceeds private medicine.


Not when factored into the context of corruption level in government and tax ratio.  I am sure you can provide much data to support your theory, and I trust that you understand I could cite just as many examples.  However, neither of us would convince the other that we are right - so the exercise becomes rather moot.


The average American pays 100% more than the average Brit for their healthcare and not all Americans are covered at that and something like 70% more than the French and 60% more than the Germans. I could go on. Even the American Medical Association has lamented about how Americans get a raw deal through private healthcare.

Of course I won't convince you, even though the evidence shows your wrong so I'm not going to post all the evidence again, its a waste of time. I can't quite understand why so many Americans blindly believe in private healthcare when just about every other country in the developed world has state universal care as the main provider because it has proved the most efficient and effective way to provide world class healthcare to their citizens.

You aren't a share holder in a private health company are you? Because they are the ones that profit from private healthcare, not a company's customers.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to fearghus)
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RE: Opinion: politics of fear vs. politics of guilt - 9/13/2008 7:42:45 AM   
fearghus


Posts: 135
Joined: 9/10/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: fearghus

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


This goes against all the evidence, socialized medicine in the developed world, in all comparable evidence and every statistic, far exceeds private medicine.


Not when factored into the context of corruption level in government and tax ratio.  I am sure you can provide much data to support your theory, and I trust that you understand I could cite just as many examples.  However, neither of us would convince the other that we are right - so the exercise becomes rather moot.


The average American pays 100% more than the average Brit for their healthcare and not all Americans are covered at that and something like 70% more than the French and 60% more than the Germans. I could go on. Even the American Medical Association has lamented about how Americans get a raw deal through private healthcare.

Of course I won't convince you, even though the evidence shows your wrong so I'm not going to post all the evidence again, its a waste of time. I can't quite understand why so many Americans blindly believe in private healthcare when just about every other country in the developed world has state universal care as the main provider because it has proved the most efficient and effective way to provide world class healthcare to their citizens.

You aren't a share holder in a private health company are you? Because they are the ones that profit from private healthcare, not a company's customers.


*sigh*

And thus begins the rhetoric.  And the flinging of statistical 'evidence'.  It becomes tiresome quickly.

I am particularly frustrated by statements like "... though the evidence shows you're wrong ... " as that is only an indication that you are looking to be right rather than discuss the issue in an open-minded fashion.

If being right is your goal - then hey!  I declare you "right".

Now, for those of us wishing to continue with the discussion of general political philosophies, perhaps we can move back into that area.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Opinion: politics of fear vs. politics of guilt - 9/13/2008 7:44:50 AM   
fearghus


Posts: 135
Joined: 9/10/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

quote:

When the government takes over health care - and other areas that used to be under citizans' control ... how many years before even the best meaning intensions become corrupt and bloated? (Excerpt.)

fearghus


Obama's proposal does not eliminate private insurance; it supplements it with government subsidized insurance for the uninsured, especially children.  If you honestly think people have had control over insurance companies in the US since like, I dunno, the Civil War, you are mistaken.  Like mostcorporations, they are generally accountable only to their shareholders and have few effective limits placed on them byt he states, which regulate them -- or do not, as the case may be.
 
candystripper 


I will not take issue with any specific plan by any specific politician (as doing such quickly degenerates on these forums) but should like to stick with general political philosophies.

Perhaps the two major parties would more accurately serve the people if they we honest enough to call themselves "socialist" and "capitalist"

(in reply to candystripper)
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RE: Opinion: politics of fear vs. politics of guilt - 9/13/2008 8:14:46 AM   
cpK69


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I would add pride to the fear politics and security to the guilt politics.
 
After all, lets not forget our alter ego dundun dun dun… Super America… able to cure all hunger, disease, poverty, and political discord world wide, in a single pounce. (just don’t look at us when we tell you that)…
 
And…
 
*checks watch* Isn’t it about half-past time for the next horrible, world-wide-spreading, men-killing disease to manifest, so we can all line up for the newest cure/protection?
 
Kim

(in reply to fearghus)
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RE: Opinion: politics of fear vs. politics of guilt - 9/13/2008 8:23:28 AM   
rulemylife


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Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fearghus

quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

quote:

When the government takes over health care - and other areas that used to be under citizans' control ... how many years before even the best meaning intensions become corrupt and bloated? (Excerpt.)

fearghus


Obama's proposal does not eliminate private insurance; it supplements it with government subsidized insurance for the uninsured, especially children.  If you honestly think people have had control over insurance companies in the US since like, I dunno, the Civil War, you are mistaken.  Like mostcorporations, they are generally accountable only to their shareholders and have few effective limits placed on them byt he states, which regulate them -- or do not, as the case may be.
 
candystripper 


I will not take issue with any specific plan by any specific politician (as doing such quickly degenerates on these forums) but should like to stick with general political philosophies.

Perhaps the two major parties would more accurately serve the people if they we honest enough to call themselves "socialist" and "capitalist"


You mean like that presciption drug benefit plan that our socialist President passed through the socialist Republican Congress?

(in reply to fearghus)
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RE: Opinion: politics of fear vs. politics of guilt - 9/13/2008 8:27:20 AM   
fearghus


Posts: 135
Joined: 9/10/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: fearghus

quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

quote:

When the government takes over health care - and other areas that used to be under citizans' control ... how many years before even the best meaning intensions become corrupt and bloated? (Excerpt.)

fearghus


Obama's proposal does not eliminate private insurance; it supplements it with government subsidized insurance for the uninsured, especially children.  If you honestly think people have had control over insurance companies in the US since like, I dunno, the Civil War, you are mistaken.  Like mostcorporations, they are generally accountable only to their shareholders and have few effective limits placed on them byt he states, which regulate them -- or do not, as the case may be.
 
candystripper 


I will not take issue with any specific plan by any specific politician (as doing such quickly degenerates on these forums) but should like to stick with general political philosophies.

Perhaps the two major parties would more accurately serve the people if they we honest enough to call themselves "socialist" and "capitalist"


You mean like that presciption drug benefit plan that our socialist President passed through the socialist Republican Congress?


Ah, now we're getting somewhere ;)  That deep down, the parties are not all that different and will even use tatics common to the OTHER party when it suits their need for cash and control.

(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: Opinion: politics of fear vs. politics of guilt - 9/13/2008 8:28:29 AM   
fearghus


Posts: 135
Joined: 9/10/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69


I would add pride to the fear politics and security to the guilt politics.
 
After all, lets not forget our alter ego dundun dun dun… Super America… able to cure all hunger, disease, poverty, and political discord world wide, in a single pounce. (just don’t look at us when we tell you that)…
 
And…
 
*checks watch* Isn’t it about half-past time for the next horrible, world-wide-spreading, men-killing disease to manifest, so we can all line up for the newest cure/protection?
 
Kim


Yes!  Both strong emotions that politics uses against the people as a form of control.

(in reply to cpK69)
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RE: Opinion: politics of fear vs. politics of guilt - 9/13/2008 12:38:02 PM   
cloudboy


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quote:

Oh puh-lease, Clouds. That is just ignorant. If it wasn't for white, middle/upper class liberal guilt, the Democrats wouldn't have a platform.


I think you are looking at feelings of social responsibility. One could argue that rational income distribution, social security, education, and environmental protections are societal concerns, not products of "guilt." A line always has to be drawn somewhere between individuals and societal obligations --- and its up to our democracy to place those boundaries.

As for Theocracy --- there's the guilt for being gay, for believing in the wrong religion, for heretical ideas, and the fear directed at nations or institutions who threaten the hegemony of the one "right" religion.

What's funny is how I'm "left wing," but if I was in charge we'd have policies of fiscal restraint, a downsizing of our military, better funding for the US State DEPT, a decentralization of education, and progressives leading our federal agencies.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 9/13/2008 12:40:00 PM >

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RE: Opinion: politics of fear vs. politics of guilt - 9/13/2008 1:10:49 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

I think you are looking at feelings of social responsibility. One could argue that rational income distribution, social security, education, and environmental protections are societal concerns, not products of "guilt." A line always has to be drawn somewhere between individuals and societal obligations --- and its up to our democracy to place those boundaries.

...

What's funny is how I'm "left wing," but if I was in charge we'd have policies of fiscal restraint, a downsizing of our military, better funding for the US State DEPT, a decentralization of education, and progressives leading our federal agencies.



         How is that funny Clouds?  A weak defense, handouts of our money to the rest of the world, social experimentation in the guise of "helping" all sound like very straightforward leftist policy to me.  I'm well aware that when the left talks about fiscal restraint they are referring to how much I have to spend, and decentralized education means unfunded mandates to turn the ___'s into good little communist sheep.

             
        I gotta tell you, Clouds, when it comes to waltzing in and announcing a new set of social boundaries, you remind me a hell of a lot of the very religious types you so love to demonize.
     

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to cloudboy)
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RE: Opinion: politics of fear vs. politics of guilt - 9/13/2008 1:38:32 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


To me fear and guilt are best merged in a theocracy. Others are hedons. Different cultures or nations are threatening. And, there is only one true way, which if you don't accept it --- makes you guilty.

The closest thing that we have to that in the US is the Religious Right.



         Oh puh-lease, Clouds.  That is just ignorant.  If it wasn't for white, middle/upper class liberal guilt, the Democrats wouldn't have a platform.

      


LMAO!
Heretic, you can't be a Lefty/ Liberal and *NOT* feel guilty all the time!
You hit the nail on the head there!

Hey Cloudy, PaHunk and me need a "bailout" now snap to it or we'll make you miserable and cause you to feel "good."
And why on God's green earth would anyone want to give more money to the State Dept?
Have you ever mey anyone who "works" for the State Dept?
They need to be cut by 2/3's!
Imagine that, getting paid $100k per year to sit around and drink tea or booze with foreigners.
Oh yeah, that's real "progressive", keep doing "more of the same" only more of it!
"The State Dept, we've never met a foreign aid plan we didn't like!"

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 9/13/2008 1:49:31 PM >

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to TheHeretic)
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