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RE: valuable - 9/16/2008 2:38:33 PM

Ialdabaoth

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I'm actually going to go out on a limb and disagree with this.

The key to being wanted has NOTHING to do with wanting yourself first.

What it has to do with is acting confident, which can be solved by people who actually care about self-honesty by caring about yourself.

Other people can fake it with sufficient bravado and years of social skills honed in grade school and high school.

But trust me, "like yourself first" is just another trick. So is being rich, or having a knock-out body, or being the despotic ruler of a third-world country.

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RE: valuable - 9/17/2008 3:52:44 AM

lally3

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ive just skimmed throught the last few posts cos im in a rush and i really want to respond properly, so ill come back later

xx

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RE: valuable - 9/18/2008 10:05:47 AM

lally3

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Where is the cut off here? What I mean is, if one is insecure or doesn't love a certain thing about themselves, is there less love they are able to receive or give and how much insecurity does it take to be at the place where what they feel or receive in love is actually not love and then what is it?

my mother had issues of unlovability. she pushed attempts of love away from myself and my brothers to such an extent that it became impossible to love her. she rejected love out of insecurity and perpetuated her lonlyness as a result. i would say that yes, a person can feel so annihilistic toward themselves that they make it impossible for others to get close.

she perceived love as a form of parasitism frankly - people drawing something from her she was unwilling or incapable of giving.

as a result i grew up distrusting love too - something i have worked through.

it is very very distructive to turn a persons love away, to distrust their love. in the end it makes it completely impossible to love a person who does not recognise that the emotion can be pure and genuine and not something that is being used as a weapon or something that can be taken away at a moments notice for some small insurrection.

If someone has a rough time in life and has been wounded lots of times or for a long time, they may have some issues to get through and learn to live a better way for themselves, but I don't feel they are totally handicapped in ability to love or receive love.

she's in her 70's now, its taken her years, but she can now say 'i love you' and mean it and she can hear me say 'i love you' and believe it. but it took her alot of wasted years to get there.

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RE: valuable - 9/18/2008 10:28:15 AM

lally3

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im really glad i posted this, you guys have really made me think it all through.

i realise that actually, without sounding too bigheaded i have worked through a whole lot of stuff, ive arrived at a place i am the most happiest i have ever been - partly to do with the journey ive had with D/s.

stella41b's post about committment to oneself made me realise that i have almost achieved most of those things, not all, definitely not all. and i suppose when i got the 'message' about seeing myself as valuable i confused that with not being....

i realise that what she meant was that i should be more aware of what i have achieved so far and that those achievements are valuable.

by constantly striving to improve and get better at life generally we maybe forget what we have already achieved and how we have already grown and developed. maybe some of us forget how we were at the start and all the growth we have done already and that because the goal posts are always way the other end of the field, the process seems permanently unfinished. and so it is.

thank you guys, i wouldnt have got here without you. hugs. xx

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RE: valuable - 9/18/2008 10:55:02 AM

Dnomyar

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I would like to thank all of the posters on this thread. It has been one great read. I wish that I could articulate like most of you do. But to each their own style.

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RE: valuable - 9/18/2008 10:55:12 AM

lally3

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But trust me, "like yourself first" is just another trick. So is being rich, or having a knock-out body, or being the despotic ruler of a third-world country.

i think the people who rely on money, looks and power as a measure of their self worth have an awful lot of growing to do.

i also think its quite difficult to like yourself absolutely - its a truly difficult thing to achieve because unless you see yourself as perfect there are always going to be things youll want to change and improve on.

i wouldnt say i like myself especially, but i dont dislike myself either - i know myself too well to say that i am so perfect that there arent things that i think about and dont feel terrible for thinking them or do things that might afterwards make me cringe.

but i do like myself enough to accept compliments, love and affection - i like to feel that people enjoy me, it gives me validation that what i do and how i do it is ok.

i dont believe that because i do things or how i do things is reason enough to like me or love me and i guess if i was honest here id admit that im always a little amazed when people say that they do. but when they do i get a little glow inside - there was a time when if someone said they loved me id fly into a fury and tell them love was BS.

but i think that if youre capable of love and your capable of liking someone then you open yourself up to the possibility of them liking and loving you - its a two way street - but you have to be able to believe that your lovable and likeable to allow people in and thats tricky

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RE: valuable - 9/18/2008 11:23:09 AM

hizgeorgiapeach

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally3

But trust me, "like yourself first" is just another trick. So is being rich, or having a knock-out body, or being the despotic ruler of a third-world country.

i think the people who rely on money, looks and power as a measure of their self worth have an awful lot of growing to do.

i also think its quite difficult to like yourself absolutely - its a truly difficult thing to achieve because unless you see yourself as perfect there are always going to be things youll want to change and improve on.

While there are likely going to always be Minor areas where you feel improvement is an option - or even a necessity - they are relatively Minor areas. When I think of someone (yes, even myself) Significantly Disliking some portion of themselves - it is just that, a Significant area, not a minor, "oh, I could stand to loose 5 lbs" or "I wish I could quit smoking." Striving towards a better self is not a bad thing - feeling like there's so much that has to be changed before you can even begin striving towards a better self IS bad.

quote:

i dont believe that because i do things or how i do things is reason enough to like me or love me and i guess if i was honest here id admit that im always a little amazed when people say that they do. but when they do i get a little glow inside - there was a time when if someone said they loved me id fly into a fury and tell them love was BS.

Dissociation of emotional responce on that level isn't as uncommon as many people assume. It's a self-preservation coping mechanism directly related to repeated emotional traumas. It can, but doesn't always, go hand in hand with certain personality disorders. It's also something that I frequently find myself in the grip of.

quote:

but i think that if youre capable of love and your capable of liking someone then you open yourself up to the possibility of them liking and loving you - its a two way street - but you have to be able to believe that your lovable and likeable to allow people in and thats tricky

Very tricky - and the more deep seated or repeated the emotional traumas surrounding "love" (or even simple affection) - the more likely it is that a person will "grow" to the point where they become quite literally incapable of trusting others sufficiently to allow the interaction necessary for that "two way street" to be walked. For many, if not most, that point of inability to extend further trust never Quite happens - although they might think that it has. For some few, however, a line is truely crossed - the inability is honestly there, and no amount of psychotherapy, well meaning aquaintances (or strangers), or giving themselves time to Heal will correct or amend the problem.

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RE: valuable - 9/18/2008 12:54:22 PM

lally3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach

quote:

i dont believe that because i do things or how i do things is reason enough to like me or love me and i guess if i was honest here id admit that im always a little amazed when people say that they do. but when they do i get a little glow inside - there was a time when if someone said they loved me id fly into a fury and tell them love was BS.

Dissociation of emotional responce on that level isn't as uncommon as many people assume. It's a self-preservation coping mechanism directly related to repeated emotional traumas. It can, but doesn't always, go hand in hand with certain personality disorders. It's also something that I frequently find myself in the grip of.

yes it is! (nods vigorously) - i think i have evolved this part of me into giving love and not expecting any in return. that way i see it as avoiding putting pressure on the other person and being free to feel the way i wish without fear of rejection because i have not placed my emotions at their feet to accept or reject, they remain my responsibility not theirs. hmm, interesting!

quote:

but i think that if youre capable of love and your capable of liking someone then you open yourself up to the possibility of them liking and loving you - its a two way street - but you have to be able to believe that your lovable and likeable to allow people in and thats tricky

Very tricky - and the more deep seated or repeated the emotional traumas surrounding "love" (or even simple affection) - the more likely it is that a person will "grow" to the point where they become quite literally incapable of trusting others sufficiently to allow the interaction necessary for that "two way street" to be walked. For many, if not most, that point of inability to extend further trust never Quite happens - although they might think that it has. For some few, however, a line is truely crossed - the inability is honestly there, and no amount of psychotherapy, well meaning aquaintances (or strangers), or giving themselves time to Heal will correct or amend the problem.

a while back i would have agreed with you, albeit unwillingly.

D/s opens up the trust issue for people - its one of the things about D/s, where trust is paramount. it drew me in like a moth to a candle flame. it challenged that very part of me i desparately wanted to challenge because i knew i would be emotionally crippled until i did. i really did detest the word love, i didnt understand an emotion that could be used to abuse you in so many different ways.

its a leap of faith, but if you have faith in yourself already and the person you are trusting it can be done.

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RE: valuable - 9/18/2008 1:22:35 PM

hizgeorgiapeach

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally3

quote:

Very tricky - and the more deep seated or repeated the emotional traumas surrounding "love" (or even simple affection) - the more likely it is that a person will "grow" to the point where they become quite literally incapable of trusting others sufficiently to allow the interaction necessary for that "two way street" to be walked. For many, if not most, that point of inability to extend further trust never Quite happens - although they might think that it has. For some few, however, a line is truely crossed - the inability is honestly there, and no amount of psychotherapy, well meaning aquaintances (or strangers), or giving themselves time to Heal will correct or amend the problem.

a while back i would have agreed with you, albeit unwillingly.

D/s opens up the trust issue for people - its one of the things about D/s, where trust is paramount. it drew me in like a moth to a candle flame. it challenged that very part of me i desparately wanted to challenge because i knew i would be emotionally crippled until i did. i really did detest the word love, i didnt understand an emotion that could be used to abuse you in so many different ways.

its a leap of faith, but if you have faith in yourself already and the person you are trusting it can be done.

This is where you and I have taken significantly different pathways, Lally. While you found the "challenge" of trusting due to ds to be a means of overcoming your inability to trust - I found that "trusting" within the context of ds was simply a fast road towards further emotional - and yes, sometimes physical - trauma. My participation in ds/ms relationships specifically is part of what pushed me past the point of being truely capable of offering my trust to others - it was to often abused. Trust vs Non-Trust is a learned behavior. One which, in the long run, can be "unlearned" by most - either in learning to start trusting others again (as was your case) - or in learning to No Longer trust others (as was mine.) For a long time, I considered my inability to trust, and my subsequent inability to form deep interpersonal relationships with others, to be a liability. During that period, it left me feeling like something was somehow "missing" from my life - I didn't feel Complete unless I was in - or at least attempting - a relationship. I no longer see it as a liability. I quit seeing it that way once I acknowledged to myself that I am significantly happier when I am Not in a relationship, and admitted to myself that my life wasn't "lacking" anything other than what society told me I Had to want to Fit In. Once I quit caring whether I particularly "fit in" or not - acceptance, and contentment, were close behind.

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RE: valuable - 9/18/2008 2:17:16 PM

lally3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach

This is where you and I have taken significantly different pathways, Lally. While you found the "challenge" of trusting due to ds to be a means of overcoming your inability to trust - I found that "trusting" within the context of ds was simply a fast road towards further emotional - and yes, sometimes physical - trauma. My participation in ds/ms relationships specifically is part of what pushed me past the point of being truely capable of offering my trust to others - it was to often abused. Trust vs Non-Trust is a learned behavior. One which, in the long run, can be "unlearned" by most - either in learning to start trusting others again (as was your case) - or in learning to No Longer trust others (as was mine.) For a long time, I considered my inability to trust, and my subsequent inability to form deep interpersonal relationships with others, to be a liability. During that period, it left me feeling like something was somehow "missing" from my life - I didn't feel Complete unless I was in - or at least attempting - a relationship. I no longer see it as a liability. I quit seeing it that way once I acknowledged to myself that I am significantly happier when I am Not in a relationship, and admitted to myself that my life wasn't "lacking" anything other than what society told me I Had to want to Fit In. Once I quit caring whether I particularly "fit in" or not - acceptance, and contentment, were close behind.

well, maybe we're just at different stages of the same process...

that was me a few years ago. i found a very happy, contented place for myself where noone, not even friends were allowed to get in too close.

now im at a place where this is my parade and noone gets to rain on it. im so protective of what ive achieved and where im at with it all that nothing gets past my radar for long. ive made bad choices, quite recently infact, but because of those past years of contentment and peace i can move on in tact.

if anyone rained on my parade so much that it in any way compromised my strength, the strength ive earned and own, is all mine and noone elses, they'd have one angry full on bitch to deal with. i will never curl up in a ball again.

so i guess im at a strong place now. i can trust because i trust myself to handle it if it all goes tits up. i want to trust because it feels so incredibly good to do so - its hedonism to me. i know that if it all fails i still have me and i still have the personal contentment and peace i found before hand.

but ill admit that i keep a piece of me for me as insurance and i expect i always will.

edited to add: but ive never been in an Ms relationship - thats something that would have to evolve very slowly and carefully - that level of trust is beyond me yet and i admire you for going there. xx

< Message edited by lally3 -- 9/18/2008 2:23:57 PM >

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RE: valuable - 9/18/2008 4:51:28 PM

Irishknight

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I believe that we each make ourselves valuable or not valuable. If you are a useless turd who spends all of his/her time whining about what other people are doing and watching Oprah, you are useless. If you actually get up and contribute to the world, you have value. The value is gained by doing as much as you are capable of doing. Not trying to do anything but complain is the only thing I see that makes a person have no value.

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RE: valuable - 9/18/2008 4:55:42 PM

Aneirin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally3

this might sound a little bizarre, but i need to ask, because i seem to have a brain block on this.

i was meditating in the woods the other day and i got this very clear message that for me to become valued by others i must become valuable to myself

how the hell do you become valuable to yourself.

i told you it was a bit bizarre..

Nope, meditation is not bizarre, nor is it bizarre that you chose to meditate in the woodland. When I try that I get annoyed by the sound of distant cars, so you must be proficient if you can cut that out, but mind the New Forest, I don't know how road busy that is.

I have gone through all this being valuable, love thing, and I know that I can be of no use to any other if I am of no use to myself, but what I have learned, that one must please themself before they please another. I used to focus all energy on others, often at detriment to myself, it was my way of avoiding myself, thinking of others one does not have to think of the self. This is all well and good, but eventually, that kind of mentality catches up with you, say the care of others, those others are not there, so you are left with the self and because you are unpractised, you do not know the self and so this leads to all kinds of nasties.

So I have learned , I am myself, though I may not be perfect, I accept myself and one day I may come to love myself. Above all, we have to be true to ourselves and put ourselves first and foremost before others.

I know this sounds horrid, but that can come to mean many things, putting yourself first can mean putting others first, simply by it being your wish, you are pleasing yourself in putting others first. This is your value, and by it, you being true, honest and at comfort with yourself is yourself being valuable to yourself.

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RE: valuable - 9/18/2008 5:21:20 PM

lally3

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This is your value, and by it, you being true, honest and at comfort with yourself is yourself being valuable to yourself.

i think thats it in a nutshell and what everyone else is saying too, and what ive come to understand as the platform from which all else springs.

when you are comfortable with yourself, safe inside of yourself, strong in yourself, then youre at a place where the risks start to feel more affordable.

the New Forest is being polluted by car noise too. but this woodland is very peaceful. also i use the rythem of sticks knocked together to enhance the meditative process - it helps the brain to slow down from 'alpha' to 'theta' it also helps silence all the thoughts clattering around in your head that often get in the way. give it a try.

< Message edited by lally3 -- 9/18/2008 5:22:40 PM >

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