Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative emotional abuser) (Full Version)

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Asmodeus -> Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative emotional abuser) (9/16/2008 12:48:47 PM)

In the local community there is a moderately well-known switch (she has been both a master and a slave and written a book about it) we are having a minor problem with. We have a new submissive, one who pursued us, and, at her request, was granted a very simple, limited term, renewable contract. She's new to the lifestyle, very sweet, eager to learn, and wants to believe the best of everyone she meets.

The aforementioned switch lives somewhat locally to our new sub and had offered to be her "mentor" in the scene. They would chat over coffee and the switch would give her opinions on everything in the scene, based on her years of personal experience. Looking back at those conversation our sub tells us that the gist of many of those conversations was basically that no one (except her) could be trusted, as all of the dominants our sub was meeting simply had ulterior motives in trying to build a relationship with her.

While that's often true, the advice the switch friend was giving seemed to be very focused on making everyone else in the local scene look bad, while making her look good. Our sub though this was odd, but as the switch was presenting herself as a "slave" at this point in her life, she accepted the suggestions that were made to her with few if any reservations.

fast forward a month or so; our new sub has signed a contract with us, which while very simple, includes such things as not scening with anyone else without our permission. She takes her contract very seriously (though it's conditions are not very onerous, as she has a very full vanilla life and family space) and has contacted us for permission for very simple things which fall into the narrowly focused contract's area of coverage. The sub is very good at partitioning her life and has been very happy under our care. That being said, we are treating this contract as an educational one, allowing our sub to explore what the lifestyle has to offer while having the safety net of two experienced dominants to fall back on.

And so the problem begins...

While having coffee with her switch friend, the friend brings out a new flogger she has just received. Our sub loves to be flogged; her "friend" is aware of this. She is also aware that our sub is a bit of a gear freak'; she loves to find new toys to try out. So she convinces our sub that she should let her try out this new flogger on her. Our sub agrees, thinking that this woman is her friend, and she often toy shops with friends, trying out new floggers, etc., without issue.

Rather than simply give her a feel of the flogger, the switch friend gets her relaxed and then lays into her with the flogger; she knows the sub is a serious pain slut and is just learning to control her reaction to things that trigger her. Yet knowing this she takes advantage of the friendship and trust that she has built with our sub and, ignoring the contract that she knows exists, and knowing that our sub doesn't want to scene with anyone but us at this time, and really works her with the flogger, sending her into subspace (according to our sub who tells us that she only remembers the first 10 or eleven blows).

I actually don't know how our sub got herself home; she was literally hysterical. We get a strange email from her and when we call, we get her best friend who tells us that she is crying hysterically and is curled up in the fetal position. We get her calmed down somewhat and that's when we get this story.

Basically she felt completely betrayed by this woman she considered her friend, is afraid that we will consider the contract broken because she played with someone with out our consent, and that this person who had earned her trust had broken that bond (looking at the situation from the perspective of a few days our sub told us that she thinks that she was being groomed to become this switch's new slave; personally I would have thought that the switch giving her a "slave anklet" and telling her how to wear it would have been the first clue).

We let her know that it wasn't her fault, that the woman who broke her trust had all the information on her triggers and reactions, and that she had no reason to keep her guard up with someone who had convinced her they had her best interests at heart, and was her friend.

Knowing that our sub had a need to be punished for what she saw as breaking her contract my partner, who had her the next day for a D/s social event gave her a very simple, but incredibly effective punishment; she wasn't allowed to touch anyone while at the D/s event. Given that our sub is one of the "hugs for everybody" types, this punishment worked very well. She later told us she was never more aware of her body or her "position in space." She felt that she had learned something from the punishment (the measure of a good punishment) and that she could get past the whole issue.

However, at the D/s event, where our sub told people who would normally hug her that she was on punishment, the switch was attending as a "slave" (She has no "master", just a guy who beats her, was what I was told). The switch ignored being told that our sub wasn't to be touched, and while in the private slave meeting, grabbed her ass to say "Hi." This did not sit well with our sub.

At the conclusion of the event (a small group) my partner got up and thanked everyone for respecting her wishes regarding touching her sub and was sorry to hear that some of the attendees had chosen to ignore our subs request not to be touched. The offending party later came over to my partner to tell her that "if she was referring to her, she just grabbed on to help her stand up" a totally BS statement according to our sub and other attendees who witnessed the action.

So our sub has decided she wants no contact with this woman who abused her trust and we suggested she just ignore her attempts at contact. Well now the switch is sending email bad-mouthing my partner and seriously attempting to BS our sub (who forwards the emails to us) by pushing her buttons, which she learned about while presenting herself as a "friend."

I need to deal with the situation. It's not that my partner can't take care of herself, but there are simply some things that it is more appropriate for me to get involved with, and this is clearly one of those things. I could respond to the woman's email, but I'm seriously considering calling her on it in public, at a large event this weekend I know she will be at. I've talked to other people in the scene about her and get opinions from "pillar of the community" to "absolute f...ing moonbat" so she clearly has had issues with other people.

I just want to let this woman know that actions have consequences, and that of she continues on her present course, she will learn that first hand (noting illegal, immoral, or fattening). And I need to let our new sub see that the scene is not completely filled with manipulative jackasses who present themselves as something they are not in an attempt to screw with someone else's head.

Sorry for the length, I'm venting a bit. People who insist on playing head games just really piss me off.




KatyLied -> RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative emotional abuser) (9/16/2008 12:54:01 PM)

I think that ignoring the trouble-maker would be preferable to generating drama at a lifestyle event.  Honestly, bringing out all of this will make you look as bad as the slave/switch.




Asmodeus -> RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative emotional abuser) (9/16/2008 12:59:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

I think that ignoring the trouble-maker would be preferable to generating drama at a lifestyle event.  Honestly, bringing out all of this will make you look as bad as the slave/switch.



Unfortunately, the local scene thrives on lies and innuendo. It's very unfortunate that it is that way. But by bringing it up in public ( I would talk to the people in charge first) I would be attempting to limit the spread of potential BS. And our local scene desperately needs some sort of accountability. if I didn't enjoy public play so much I would tell all of these drama queens to .... well, you know.




Brownbohemian -> RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative emotional abuser) (9/16/2008 1:05:25 PM)

I agree with you about the head games. I think your course of action has been just thus far. However calling this switch out in public might back fire, but I still think it might be the only way. People need to know about her and she definately needs to be put in her place. This world is sacred and scaring someone back into the closet is f'ed up and not progressive for our culture. I say try to find away to put this switch on blast without getting yourself caught up because she seems to enjoy the attention positive or negative. And vent all you want, we are all here to listen. Good luck.




Dominatist -> RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative emotional abuser) (9/16/2008 1:05:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

I think that ignoring the trouble-maker would be preferable to generating drama at a lifestyle event.  Honestly, bringing out all of this will make you look as bad as the slave/switch.

I agree. Ignoring her with a cold-shoulder...allowing her respite only among those who succumb to her games. If she is that well known throughout the local community...this could reach a heavy price for her to pay.




Honsoku -> RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative emotional abuser) (9/16/2008 1:06:06 PM)

Has the contract submissive told her "I do not want to talk to you anymore. Goodbye." or words to that effect?

Is the switch sending those e-mails just to the submissive, or is she sending them to other people as well?

From a psychological perspective the less the switch perceives you being involved in her being turned away, the better this is likely to play out. If she thinks that anyone else besides the submissive was responsible for her getting turned away, she will most likely just redouble her efforts.




john32 -> RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative emotional abuser) (9/16/2008 1:14:38 PM)

I am new to this website as well as the world of d/s. However being somewhat opinionated i would like to chime in.


imo, you have an obligation to address this situation. However this situation involves your sub, your partner, and the offender. It does not involve the entire community. (wich isnt to say that you cant seek advice from the community) What I would do in your situation is to address this privately with the person. You may wish to have your partner there,  you may want to have your sub there. The tricky part with involving both of them is that you dont want to create a hostile environment. Ideally you would have everyone involved (all 4 of you) if it can be done passively.  it probably cannot however.  Regardless, this should address it politely, firmly, and immediately. leave no room for doubt.  If the offending party doesnt get the mesage then it may need to be dealt with publically. Give her the chance to recognize that her behavior is not hidden and not acceptable.  as long as she beleives she can continue doing what she wants and lying about it she will do so.




JewAndCelt -> RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative emotional abuser) (9/16/2008 1:17:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Honsoku

Has the contract submissive told her "I do not want to talk to you anymore. Goodbye." or words to that effect?

Is the switch sending those e-mails just to the submissive, or is she sending them to other people as well?

From a psychological perspective the less the switch perceives you being involved in her being turned away, the better this is likely to play out. If she thinks that anyone else besides the submissive was responsible for her getting turned away, she will most likely just redouble her efforts.


I totally agree.
It will help the situation a lot if the submissive says something to the effect of what the poster said above. Also it is a real good life lesson in how to stand up for yourself and how to say "fuck off" and mean it.

Sometimes it can be a hard thing to do but she needs to know it's okay to stand up for herrself and tell someone "NO" or "Leave me alone". That lesson will be very valuable to her later.

_her




girlivy -> RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative emotional abuser) (9/16/2008 1:22:56 PM)

How about simply everyone involved sitting down as rational adults in private and hash things out? who ever does not need to know, shouldn't. like me for instance :)
Good luck with that.  You can only speak your peace, how whom ever "takes" it is on them.




VampiresLair -> RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative emotional abuser) (9/16/2008 1:23:51 PM)

Just like trying to blacklist soeone, your attempt at outting her and making her own up to wat she has been doing is going to backfire on you. You will get your point across, yes, but you are also going to garner her quite a bit of sympathy for being "terribly misunderstood while trying to just be a friend" to your girl.
If I were in your situation, I bleieve I would call her on it in private, at the event, with a few reliable witnesses (perhaps the people in charge, but not your partner or slave) and let her know it will not be tolerated. She is very obviously trying to work around you with your girl, so letting her know you are onto her and ending it once and for all might have the desired effect.
I would not, however, make it a wide spread and well known thing. She seems like the type that could  easily turn it around in certain people's minds to her being victimized and it culd turn sour for you and your partners. Rather than give her any more amunition to get the upper hand and mess with your girl... I would suggest 2 things. A, tell her you do not aprove and will not allow the contact to continue, and that you know what she has been saying about you. B, tell your sub that she is no longer to have any contact with this 'friend' without either you or your partner around. That should curtail the problems.

DV




Asmodeus -> RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative emotional abuser) (9/16/2008 1:24:58 PM)

Being active in the "out" D/s community brings an additional level of annoyance to these things. My initial reaction was to tell our sub what she had told us relative to the switch; that she had violated her trust and, as such, she wanted no further contact. I still feel that is an important step.

But I also know what the BS this woman will spread will be; "They are cutting her off from others in the community to work their evil wiles on her."

I really hate dealing with this excrement. And I hate putting the community in the position of choosing up sides; they're to inclined to do it when there is no reason, much less when there is an actual issue.




CalifChick -> RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative emotional abuser) (9/16/2008 1:32:28 PM)

Just a thought that you may not agree with:  I do think this is not only the other girl's fault, but your sub's fault as well.  After three blows with the flogger, she should have said, "that's enough", and got up/moved away/whatever.  She needs to take some accountability for what she allowed to happen, and understand how not to let it happen again (with anyone, not just that girl).  Roleplay and practice if necessary, but unless she was tied up (and if you said that, I missed it), she shares the blame here.

And I do understand that you punished her for breaking the contract, but that's not the "blame" I'm talking about.  I'm talking about letting something happen that she did not want to happen, outside of the contract, if that makes sense.  If not, let me know.

Cali






Brownbohemian -> RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative emotional abuser) (9/16/2008 1:37:25 PM)

Everyone is giving amazing advice.
I still say find a non threatening way of outing her. People have to know, look what happened to that poor sub, all b/c no one wanted to speak up. I am sure this switch has done this before. Do we really want another newbie (especially a sub) to be burned by her again? Hell, no. We have to take care of each other or who will take care of us when s&*+ goes down. This switch doesn't seem very rational, so I doubt a rational approach will work. You, my friend, are in a "quagmire". I wish you the best of luck, but watch your back no matter what your choice of action.




JewAndCelt -> RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative emotional abuser) (9/16/2008 1:37:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

Just a thought that you may not agree with:  I do think this is not only the other girl's fault, but your sub's fault as well.  After three blows with the flogger, she should have said, "that's enough", and got up/moved away/whatever.  She needs to take some accountability for what she allowed to happen, and understand how not to let it happen again (with anyone, not just that girl).  Roleplay and practice if necessary, but unless she was tied up (and if you said that, I missed it), she shares the blame here.

And I do understand that you punished her for breaking the contract, but that's not the "blame" I'm talking about.  I'm talking about letting something happen that she did not want to happen, outside of the contract, if that makes sense.  If not, let me know.

Cali





Makes sense to me.




Satyr6406 -> RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative emotional abuser) (9/16/2008 1:42:22 PM)

I have to add a little "fly to the ointment", here.
 
I want to point out I am neither you, your partner, your sub or the switch so I have no personal knowledge.
 
Having said that; there are any number of "submissives" (Yes, I put it in quotation marks) who seem to THRIVE on drama.
 
Is there the slightest chance that the switch WAS merely helping the sub stand up? Probably not but, it needs to be examined.
 
Have you asked the switch if she, indeed, flogged your submissive (sorry but, honesty is, frequently a lost art with some)?
 
Just some thoughts from "the other side"




Lockit -> RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative emotional abuser) (9/16/2008 1:43:11 PM)

While there may be fault on your submissive's part in playing when she wasn't supposed to... she feels bad and taken advantage of.  Your relationship, the emotional work, entry to bdsm etc were messed with.  I would have her write out how she feels step by step and in detail.  Review that and see if there is something you need to do about it or share it with the switch in some part of an over-all way of dealing with it.  I would do this personally and keep copies of all things.  Doing it in public doesn't always work the way it should especially if the group are known for their drama.

Someone interfering in what you are trying to do with your submissive and relationship can be very frustrating and even more so if there is some harm that you see has been done.  I would focus on bringing healing to the situation and your submissive more than dealing with the switch, but would let the switch know... there is to be no other contact made for reasons very clearly stated.  Then you have something to combat any complaint or accusations she might bring publically.




OttersSwim -> RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative emotional abuser) (9/16/2008 1:45:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

Just a thought that you may not agree with:  I do think this is not only the other girl's fault, but your sub's fault as well.  After three blows with the flogger, she should have said, "that's enough", and got up/moved away/whatever.  She needs to take some accountability for what she allowed to happen, and understand how not to let it happen again (with anyone, not just that girl).  Roleplay and practice if necessary, but unless she was tied up (and if you said that, I missed it), she shares the blame here.

And I do understand that you punished her for breaking the contract, but that's not the "blame" I'm talking about.  I'm talking about letting something happen that she did not want to happen, outside of the contract, if that makes sense.  If not, let me know.

Cali


Yea absolutely, Cali has it dead on.

Also, two thoughts:

Realize that a person's true colors eventually show. 
The people you really care about know you and your behavior.

If this switch is bad news, she will eventually out herself as someone not trustworthy.

I would encourage you to just continue to be yourselves knowing that those whose opinions you care about will not believe any junk this switch puts out about you.  I also agree with formally and firmly severing the relationship with her using the incident as the reason.  I would then let it drop.

Don't get sucked into trying to sink her, or warn others about her, etc.  This will likely backfire on you and is just icky politics and drama that you sound like you don't want to be part of.  Just be the people you are every day and move on.  If she is as bad as you say she is, she will encounter an iceberg soon enough all on her own.




Asmodeus -> RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative emotional abuser) (9/16/2008 1:45:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

Just a thought that you may not agree with:  I do think this is not only the other girl's fault, but your sub's fault as well.  After three blows with the flogger, she should have said, "that's enough", and got up/moved away/whatever.  She needs to take some accountability for what she allowed to happen, and understand how not to let it happen again (with anyone, not just that girl).  Roleplay and practice if necessary, but unless she was tied up (and if you said that, I missed it), she shares the blame here.

And I do understand that you punished her for breaking the contract, but that's not the "blame" I'm talking about.  I'm talking about letting something happen that she did not want to happen, outside of the contract, if that makes sense.  If not, let me know.

Cali





We've talked about this. She was not restrained physically, but it certainly sounded like the switch had started to move her mentally into the head space she wanted the sub in. Our sub is aware of this being partially her responsibility, and accepts that, but I need to make it clear to her that she can make friends in the lifestyle with people who aren't after her as an object of affection or plaything. She really trusted this woman and looked up to her, and the sense of betrayal is palpable when you talk to her about it. She was manipulated and she recognizes that now, but it is very important that she not develop a jaded view of the people in the lifestyle and instead realize that they are just like everyone else. Just because they have a "rep" isn't reason to let your natural guard down. And this woman played her pretty well, pushing all the right buttons , getting into a position of authority, and building up a large amount of trust. if our sub hadn't decided that we were the right people for her, the other woman would likely not have made her move until she was more secure in her position.




girlivy -> RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative emotional abuser) (9/16/2008 1:49:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Satyr6406

I have to add a little "fly to the ointment", here.
 
I want to point out I am neither you, your partner, your sub or the switch so I have no personal knowledge.
 
Having said that; there are any number of "submissives" (Yes, I put it in quotation marks) who seem to THRIVE on drama.
 
Is there the slightest chance that the switch WAS merely helping the sub stand up? Probably not but, it needs to be examined.
 
Have you asked the switch if she, indeed, flogged your submissive (sorry but, honesty is, frequently a lost art with some)?
 
Just some thoughts from "the other side"

Yes i see the quotes. Drama, or being drawn to that type of behavior to thrive on, is a Human condition. Dom/ sub/ top/ bottom/etc. has the choice to either allow it to rule them not. Some for their own personal reasons NEED it. Some avoid it like the public groups! the stone was cast, there is "no blame" only solutions. it is what it is, and unless all involved are honest enough to really tell the truth on how they percieved the situation, and open enough to accept the others words, they will be feeding the circle.




Asmodeus -> RE: Got a new one for you (dealing with a manipulative emotional abuser) (9/16/2008 1:57:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: girlivy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Satyr6406

I have to add a little "fly to the ointment", here.
 
I want to point out I am neither you, your partner, your sub or the switch so I have no personal knowledge.
 
Having said that; there are any number of "submissives" (Yes, I put it in quotation marks) who seem to THRIVE on drama.
 
Is there the slightest chance that the switch WAS merely helping the sub stand up? Probably not but, it needs to be examined.
 
Have you asked the switch if she, indeed, flogged your submissive (sorry but, honesty is, frequently a lost art with some)?
 
Just some thoughts from "the other side"

Yes i see the quotes. Drama, or being drawn to that type of behavior to thrive on, is a Human condition. Dom/ sub/ top/ bottom/etc. has the choice to either allow it to rule them not. Some for their own personal reasons NEED it. Some avoid it like the public groups! the stone was cast, there is "no blame" only solutions. it is what it is, and unless all involved are honest enough to really tell the truth on how they percieved the situation, and open enough to accept the others words, they will be feeding the circle.


We have no reason to believe that the incident didn't happen as our sub said. Granted, it could al be some sort of subtle plot to manipulate us, but I've gotten to know her and her family pretty well. And the the incident at the D/s event had witnesses.




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