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RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 9/26/2008 2:17:44 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

It is not my own barometer, it is the barometer of a group of mental health and legal professionals who sat in a courtroom and felt strongly enough in their conclusions drawn from their examination of prop to have it declared legally that she is mentally incompetent. Therefore, she can NOT consent. The very foundation of what we do is built upon consent.


And that is where people mess up with WIITWD.  Consent does NOT exist.
It's used as a safety net erin, it's used to make wiitwd seem at least acceptable to people who don't participate.
Consent is a fucked up idea dished out by the safety police but is as tangible as smoke.
 
the.dark.

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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Profile   Post #: 181
RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 9/26/2008 2:25:46 PM   
CruelDesires


Posts: 824
Joined: 11/20/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

It is not my own barometer, it is the barometer of a group of mental health and legal professionals who sat in a courtroom and felt strongly enough in their conclusions drawn from their examination of prop to have it declared legally that she is mentally incompetent. Therefore, she can NOT consent. The very foundation of what we do is built upon consent.


The same mental health "professionals" who up until not too long ago deemed everyone who practiced BD/sM as sick and twisted individuals? The same legal "professionals" who let muderers like OJ Simpson walk free? 

Using those "professionals" as a barometer for what is right and wrong is self defeating IMO.

C-D

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Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself.
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RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 9/26/2008 2:48:17 PM   
persephonee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

It is not my own barometer, it is the barometer of a group of mental health and legal professionals who sat in a courtroom and felt strongly enough in their conclusions drawn from their examination of prop to have it declared legally that she is mentally incompetent. Therefore, she can NOT consent. The very foundation of what we do is built upon consent.


And that is where people mess up with WIITWD.  Consent does NOT exist.
It's used as a safety net erin, it's used to make wiitwd seem at least acceptable to people who don't participate.
Consent is a fucked up idea dished out by the safety police but is as tangible as smoke.
 
the.dark.

 
Dear .dark,
 
Forgive the interruption, please. How is consent "tangible as smoke"?
 
Thank you,
 
~perse~

_____________________________

You be the Captain; i'll be no one.

And You can carry me away....if You want to. ~Kasey Chambers

E*Whore, extraordinaire....

Nothing is exactly as it seems~Nor, is it otherwise.

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Profile   Post #: 183
RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 9/26/2008 2:49:20 PM   
persephonee


Posts: 5089
Joined: 12/15/2007
Status: offline 		and im sorry my font got out of hand there....*scratches her head*

_____________________________

You be the Captain; i'll be no one.

And You can carry me away....if You want to. ~Kasey Chambers

E*Whore, extraordinaire....

Nothing is exactly as it seems~Nor, is it otherwise.

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Profile   Post #: 184
RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 9/26/2008 3:05:49 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: persephonee
Dear .dark,
 
Forgive the interruption, please. How is consent "tangible as smoke"?
 
Thank you,
 
~perse~


Not real, or merely a representation of something that doesn't really exist without another form.  You can't touch it as it is because it's not really there - if you touch smoke, you aren't touching smoke.
 
the.dark.

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RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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Profile   Post #: 185
RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 9/26/2008 3:09:30 PM   
OttersSwim


Posts: 2860
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline 		So...this calls into question a lot of things if we go with you here D...

Are you saying that once someone is bound and restricted, consent is sort of irrelevant as the person in control can do whatever they want anyway?

Or are you saying that "consent" as a concept in BDSM is really just does not exist?  And so how do you see it?

Can you clarify please?  It is such an interesting thought that I would really like to hear more. 


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(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 186
RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 9/26/2008 3:14:48 PM   
persephonee


Posts: 5089
Joined: 12/15/2007
Status: offline 		my consent is really a part of whatever activity i am engaged in. Are you saying that consent is fluid, easily recinded, or somehow not a secure base to jump from? Because ive been using it as a springboard for almost everything i do. If i were to think that my consent wasnt being taken into consideration, i dont know that i would be doing any of the things that i do.
i follow your posts here and consider you to be a resource. If this is too much of a hijack or there is a better thread to review, please let me know.
Thank you for your reply.

~perse~


_____________________________

You be the Captain; i'll be no one.

And You can carry me away....if You want to. ~Kasey Chambers

E*Whore, extraordinaire....

Nothing is exactly as it seems~Nor, is it otherwise.

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 187
RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 9/26/2008 3:25:36 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

So...this calls into question a lot of things if we go with you here D...

Are you saying that once someone is bound and restricted, consent is sort of irrelevant as the person in control can do whatever they want anyway?

Or are you saying that "consent" as a concept in BDSM is really just does not exist?  And so how do you see it?

Can you clarify please?  It is such an interesting thought that I would really like to hear more. 



Does not exist.  It's used to make BDSM more acceptable and presentable.  People make the claim that a BDSM relationship is completely consensual.  It might be consensual (at a streatch) between the couple(or more if poly) involved, but if it was completely consensual - then why are people so concerned what others think?
 
How many people have families and are involved in BDSM?  How many orphaned people with no friends who would be no burden on the 'system' are there practising wiitwd?
 
If BDSM is so consensual - why isn't it accepted?
 
the.dark.

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RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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Profile   Post #: 188
RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 9/26/2008 3:37:04 PM   
persephonee


Posts: 5089
Joined: 12/15/2007
Status: offline 		BDSM is or isnt accepted....by whom and really, who gives a crap. If i thought that it was any of my mother's business what it is that i do in the privacy of my home i would tell her and allow her to digest it and make her own determination as to whether she condoned it.
When i came out to her as a lesbian, it was not in hopes of her acceptance (completely) but more practically, that she was going to be meeting an inordinate number of extremely butch androgenous and (hot as hell) women and we would more than likely be at least kissing in her eyeline. It was need to know.
The consent part of what it is that *i* do is not to make what it is more palatable to the outside world. Its there to make me feel like im safe...doing the right thing for myself...not being self destructive.

i am sincerely missing your point and i know that you have one. i refuse to be frustrating so i am off to research what it is that you are talking about. Any help at all would be greatly appreciated....links...books...whatever. i am lost.

Again, thank you for your time.
~perse~

_____________________________

You be the Captain; i'll be no one.

And You can carry me away....if You want to. ~Kasey Chambers

E*Whore, extraordinaire....

Nothing is exactly as it seems~Nor, is it otherwise.

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 189
RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 9/26/2008 3:37:44 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: persephonee

my consent is really a part of whatever activity i am engaged in. Are you saying that consent is fluid, easily recinded, or somehow not a secure base to jump from? Because ive been using it as a springboard for almost everything i do. If i were to think that my consent wasnt being taken into consideration, i dont know that i would be doing any of the things that i do.
i follow your posts here and consider you to be a resource. If this is too much of a hijack or there is a better thread to review, please let me know.
Thank you for your reply.

~perse~



It's my perception only, persephonee.  I don't believe in consent.  As I said before, if consent existed, then there would be no need to want acceptance.  And BDSM craves acceptance in the majority.  Yes there are a few who don't - but on the whole it wants to be allowed to exist.  It cannot, because there is no consent.  If you say, my relationship is consensual between my partner and myself - thats cool - but people don't.  They say that consent is what BDSM is about - but with every action we do there is an effect.  And that effect does not only touch the lives of those in the relationship - but it extends outside of it.
 
If you believe in consent then you have to believe that wiitwd can never be done in a selfless way.
 
Nothing we do is entirely consensual.  Smoke is nothing more than particles of another thing.  There is no concrete substance to it.  Like consent.
 
the.dark.

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RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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Profile   Post #: 190
RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 9/26/2008 3:41:43 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: persephonee

BDSM is or isnt accepted....by whom and really, who gives a crap. If i thought that it was any of my mother's business what it is that i do in the privacy of my home i would tell her and allow her to digest it and make her own determination as to whether she condoned it.
When i came out to her as a lesbian, it was not in hopes of her acceptance (completely) but more practically, that she was going to be meeting an inordinate number of extremely butch androgenous and (hot as hell) women and we would more than likely be at least kissing in her eyeline. It was need to know.
The consent part of what it is that *i* do is not to make what it is more palatable to the outside world. Its there to make me feel like im safe...doing the right thing for myself...not being self destructive.

i am sincerely missing your point and i know that you have one. i refuse to be frustrating so i am off to research what it is that you are talking about. Any help at all would be greatly appreciated....links...books...whatever. i am lost.

Again, thank you for your time.
~perse~


I understand that you don't worry about others accepting.  But you use consent to make it acceptable to you.  It makes you feel safe?  Why does consent make you safer?  It doesn't - it's smoke.
And you are the mirror.
 
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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Profile   Post #: 191
RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 9/26/2008 3:43:20 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Does not exist.  It's used to make BDSM more acceptable and presentable.  People make the claim that a BDSM relationship is completely consensual.  It might be consensual (at a streatch) between the couple(or more if poly) involved, but if it was completely consensual - then why are people so concerned what others think?
 
How many people have families and are involved in BDSM?  How many orphaned people with no friends who would be no burden on the 'system' are there practising wiitwd?
 
If BDSM is so consensual - why isn't it accepted?
 
the.dark.


The concept of -legal- consent is, in fact, a fallacy. In most places it is not -possible- to consent to assault/battery. Therefore, if one is being -struck- or emotionally, physically, or mentally battered (according to the legal definition of those terms), whether or not one consented to the act in question, there is no legal recourse. The -concept- of legal consent when applied to WIITWD is a fallacy.

On the other hand, there -is- the issue of 'voluntary acceptance/voluntary agreement' in BDSM (also called 'consent', which becomes very confusing). It is not a -legal- concept, but -does- acknowledge that person A did -agree- to what is being done to hir. This is the -only- context in which the BDSM term 'consent' makes any sense. It is not a -legal- term, but is a term of convenience, noting that person A recognizes what is happening, and accepts the occurence by either verbal statement, written acknowledgment, or by continuing participation. Under these terms, what is happening in relationships like props -is- consensual. Despite the fact that there is no -legal- ground on which to stand (just as there cannot be legal ground in -any- case revolving around BDSM, if the individual in question agrees to continue to participate, then xhe is -giving- consent.

Calla Firestorm


< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 9/26/2008 3:47:11 PM >

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RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 9/26/2008 3:43:30 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		Wow.  I have to admit I'm lost on this one.  I'm willing to see a different viewpoint.  Afterall, the things you say about consent are exactly what I say about "power" and "control".  But, I can't really follow the chain of reasoning here.  For me, consent is as clear as day, as boolean as a computer bit.

Can you explain how it is that consent makes it impossible to do WIITWD in a selfless way?

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Profile   Post #: 193
RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 9/26/2008 3:49:41 PM   
persephonee


Posts: 5089
Joined: 12/15/2007
Status: offline 		Dear .dark

i typed out this whole thing and had to delete it because my end point was in fact...your point....gotcha...and thank you again.

~perse~

_____________________________

You be the Captain; i'll be no one.

And You can carry me away....if You want to. ~Kasey Chambers

E*Whore, extraordinaire....

Nothing is exactly as it seems~Nor, is it otherwise.

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 194
RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 9/26/2008 3:59:15 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
Can you explain how it is that consent makes it impossible to do WIITWD in a selfless way?


Because people are allegedly consenting because they enjoy it in some way, because it's 'natural' or because it allows them to be 'true to themselves' or 'free'.
 
the.dark.

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RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 9/26/2008 3:59:23 PM   
persephonee


Posts: 5089
Joined: 12/15/2007
Status: offline 		FR
the term consent is not a legal term and holds really no bearing in what anyone does or doesnt do except personally. If i say that im consenting to a beating and my dom still gets hauled off to the pokey..its because i cant consent to being assaulted...got it.
my own consent to the scene or my dealings in my private relationships is only important to me.
What is being done is not legal in most states as it protects the abuser in a domestic case...the battered woman will recant her complaint or not file one and yet her bf or husband or whoever will still be prosecuted(in theory) because consent has no bearing in assault.
To tell my mom that what just happened last nite was with my permission makes it more or less palatable to her sensibilities...depending on who my mom is and whether she thinks im capable of determining right from wrong...healthy from unhealthy.

i continue to be confused by how the word "selfless" got inserted in the conversation...i am so far from selfless i cant even see it from here. Everything i do in life aside from taking care of my son is selfish...or returns to me some good....and even caring for him just keeps me out of jail...so thats selfish too.

im hijacking again....im going to restrain myself until M gets here to do it properly.

Again,,,this has been a fascinating thread...honestly...wow.

_____________________________

You be the Captain; i'll be no one.

And You can carry me away....if You want to. ~Kasey Chambers

E*Whore, extraordinaire....

Nothing is exactly as it seems~Nor, is it otherwise.

(in reply to persephonee)
Profile   Post #: 196
RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 9/26/2008 4:01:35 PM   
OttersSwim


Posts: 2860
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline 		An extremely interesting viewpoint...

I fear that I am not far enough into this lifestyle yet to really understand it beyond a conceptual level.  I am still  tripping on the fact that She wants to hit me..and I like it so much.  :P

Perhaps someday it will hit home and I will try to carry it with me until then.  Thank you.  

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Profile   Post #: 197
RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 9/26/2008 4:03:02 PM   
persephonee


Posts: 5089
Joined: 12/15/2007
Status: offline 		ok...one more hijack and then i swear im changing the sheets and starting to cook....

i think...i think im falling for .dark

just sayin

_____________________________

You be the Captain; i'll be no one.

And You can carry me away....if You want to. ~Kasey Chambers

E*Whore, extraordinaire....

Nothing is exactly as it seems~Nor, is it otherwise.

(in reply to OttersSwim)
Profile   Post #: 198
RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 9/26/2008 5:33:33 PM   
OneMoreWaste


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
quote:

ORIGINAL: OneMoreWaste
This has been a very interesting thread so far, so I'm not going to derail it by asking what your solution would be for, say, people who are born mentally or physically handicapped and will never lead a "normal" life... but it's really tempting.


That's an entirely different subject, as are elderly who are no longer able to work to support themselves.

I do believe society has the responsibility to take care of the weaker members, those who cannot take care of themselves. But cannot is quite different from will not. And willfully crossing the line from will not to cannot because you prefer to stick your head in the sand and not think ahead is not something that gets my approval.

BTW, I have an adult daughter with mental problems. Also an elderly parent. And as a Jew I resent the implication that I might believe in eugenics or cleansing of the society.


I implied no such thing. If your mind goes straight from "not wanting the responsibility" to methodical extermination, that's alllll you.

And I agree with Calla that it's not correct to consider this a case of deliberate personal irresponsibility, nor do I think it is reasonable to assume that someone who is dependent by nature would have no other choice but to end up on the welfare rolls if they were to be suddenly released from their relationship. 

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RE: So what's wrong with playing to one's strengths (or... - 9/26/2008 10:22:35 PM   
NihilusZero


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From: Nashville, TN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelDesires

The same mental health "professionals" who up until not too long ago deemed everyone who practiced BD/sM as sick and twisted individuals? The same legal "professionals" who let muderers like OJ Simpson walk free? 

Using those "professionals" as a barometer for what is right and wrong is self defeating IMO.

C-D

This is part of what I was alluding to. Psychologists understand how malleable the structures of what is and isn't considered mental stability are.



_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

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(in reply to CruelDesires)
Profile   Post #: 200
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