quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Before you continue to hold prop up as though she were a perfect example of how fulfilling these types of relationships can be you may wish to go back and take a look at her own words. She's been here several years and has often talked about how her Daddy beats her in anger and rage and breaks her bones, has her raped and beaten by others, how frightened she is of him, how sometimes she has wanted to kill herself because she saw it as her only way out of that relationship. If we take her at her word then we have to believe that her Daddy has taken advantage of her "weakness" and she is his victim. I certainly would not use theirs as an example of a healthy relationship.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

Ok, this is going to be -very- long, but again, the conversation has twisted to bring to the fore yet another set of preconceptions and judgements that struck a note with me. I hope everyone reading will forgive me the dissertation as I think that it is germane to the discussion of our perceptions of the 'needful servant' in this culture.

Yes, most of us who have known prop and other servants in her position over the years have seen aspects of these relationships that seem... obscene. We have seen Keepers who are merciless and we have occasionally seen the despair of the servants, prop included. However, the relationship that she and the others are in -is- the relationship that they've chosen, and for the most part, the acceptance and yielding to what they see as 'their place' in this world is the relationship that they are, overall, satisfied with. Like the rest of us, they have days where they are miserable, and days when death seems preferable to facing another day of the life they're bound to. But if we LISTEN, with ears that are not closed by our own fears and biases, we hear that, despite all of this, these people accept with grace the life that they -know- they have chosen -and- the commitment that they've made. They may be needful... they may be fragile and docile, subservient and pliant. They may not be pillars of strength in a way that society respects... but they stand by their commitments, even when life is agonizing and the next breath seems like it will be more than they can bear. They show amazing amounts of both dignity and honor, where others would have broken their word and moved on. I've been there. I recognize the mindset, and have embraced it myself, as far as I could considering my core personality.

I've been in the House that I am with now for over 10 years. In the time that I've been there, I've had a number of experiences, and have lived in a way that many people of my mien would never have chosen to face -- but I did. Was it always a bed of roses, and were there times that I despaired of ever being able to survive the position I'd put myself in... HELL YES!... and I am a dominant personality, resistant, resilient, and definitely capable of standing up for myself. Yet I allowed myself to enter into a relationship where I abdicated my right to retain control over -any- aspect of my life except what was expressly re-delegated to me for 4 long years! When I -did- attempt to reclaim my rights during those 4 years, I was driven back to my knees... by force if necessary... and I fully accept that that was the way that it had to be between myself and my Keepers, including one in particular, who taught me what it meant to yield despite every bit of pressure exerted within ones own will... did so with extreme force, but without destroying my will. He bruised it severely, and squeezed it mercilessly on occasion. If I had been any less dominant than I am, he would have crushed my drive to self-direct... and you know what, that would have been right, because if I -could- be crushed, I was not the dominant person I thought I was. At the same time, I had the opportunity to see a man who was strict but who clearly valued the servant who yielded completely without requiring him to constantly drive hir back to hir knees. Not that they weren't used as the Keepers wished, and not that life wasn't hard for them -- but I -know- I made life harder for myself, and accept my own complicity in what I faced. I'm not prop or those like her. I made regular and persistent attempts to reassert my dominion of self in my 4 years, because it is endemic in my personality for that to be the way things are. We had 'meat-life' GOREANS freak out about the way I was treated... and that's saying something. My point is that even a self-directed, intelligent, person can get into a position where life is -far- from a bed of roses, and yet still stay there, for reasons that remain their own, and which nobody has a right to question.

Heck, for that matter, I stayed in an affection-less marriage for 13 years, for reasons that had everything to do with my hope of healing a damaged man and nothing to do with my own happiness. In the end, he wasn't any better, and I'd taken all the frustration that I could. Admittedly, I had the option to walk away -- but it took me 13 years and his admission that he had no intention of doing anything to help himself to heal to do so.

Was I a victim in these situations. NO. I made a conscious choice. I accept that choice. Prop, too, is not a victim. I've known her through her words -- followed her life -- since I was zephyr winddancer. On my worst days, she was a beacon, NOT because her life was easy, but because her life was, at times, harder than anything I believed that I could yield to, and yet, even when she was in agony, she showed a sense of grace and an acceptance of her 'place' -- not as a victim, but as someone who had made a promise, bound herself to her word, and stood by that with honor, unfailingly. In many ways, I saw her and the few others like her that I came to know as -stronger- than I was. I continued to resist... to struggle to assert my will against the promise that I had made... they accepted the promises they made... bound themselves to their word, and yielded with more grace than I could even comprehend, despite both outward forces that tried to convince them that they were wrong and 'abused', and the internal circumstances of the life they'd chosen.

The more I think about this, the more I realize that the needfulness of which I speak is not a -weakness- in the right hands... in the person who accepts and embraces hir needfulness and subservience, and who is forthright about the oaths taken and claims yielded -- the living of those oaths may require -fully- as much 'strength' as the person who accepts a life handed over in fullness, without reservation.

I -also- think that entering into a relationship with an 'exit strategy' is a completely senseless state of mind. If we can't embrace the relationship with everything that we are, and give ourselves over to its success, then what the heck are we -doing- there? A person would, IMO, be better off alone than waiting around in a relationship, planning for the day it fails. That being said, I do try to make sure that the needful ones who come my way are cared for if something happens, because you know what, as the dominant factor in the relationship, I feel that that is my responsibility. Not every d-type is going to agree with that, and that's their issue. All I'm responsible for is myself and those who yield their lives to my care. In the same way, I have tried to make sure that my Darling is cared for if anything happens to me. We tied our lives together, and the "law" will not make sure that she has a safety net if something happens to me -- so I had to do that myself, and I don't regret it for a minute. If, for some reason, we part -- which is not inconceivable, since none of us can know what tomorrow will bring, so be it... but I didn't come into the relationship planning my 'way out', and aside from common-sense things set in place in the event of something untoward, I don't choose to spend whatever days we -have- worrying about what -might- happen if it ends.

I am not a 'victim', and after years of watching them, I don't think that prop and those who yield as she has, with full knowledge of what they face, are victims either. The 'victims', as I see it, are the people who are too afraid of what other people that they don't even -know- are going to think about them that they fail to be authentic about who they are and how they would best prefer to live.

Calla Firestorm

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

That's an entirely different subject, as are elderly who are no longer able to work to support themselves.

I do believe society has the responsibility to take care of the weaker members, those who cannot take care of themselves. But cannot is quite different from will not. And willfully crossing the line from will not to cannot because you prefer to stick your head in the sand and not think ahead is not something that gets my approval.

BTW, I have an adult daughter with mental problems. Also an elderly parent. And as a Jew I resent the implication that I might believe in eugenics or cleansing of the society.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Before you continue to hold prop up as though she were a perfect example of how fulfilling these types of relationships can be you may wish to go back and take a look at her own words. She's been here several years and has often talked about how her Daddy beats her in anger and rage and breaks her bones, has her raped and beaten by others, how frightened she is of him, how sometimes she has wanted to kill herself because she saw it as her only way out of that relationship. If we take her at her word then we have to believe that her Daddy has taken advantage of her "weakness" and she is his victim. I certainly would not use theirs as an example of a healthy relationship.

Ok, this is going to be -very- long, but again, the conversation has twisted to bring to the fore yet another set of preconceptions and judgements that struck a note with me. I hope everyone reading will forgive me the dissertation as I think that it is germane to the discussion of our perceptions of the 'needful servant' in this culture.

Yes, most of us who have known prop and other servants in her position over the years have seen aspects of these relationships that seem... obscene. We have seen Keepers who are merciless and we have occasionally seen the despair of the servants, prop included. However, the relationship that she and the others are in -is- the relationship that they've chosen, and for the most part, the acceptance and yielding to what they see as 'their place' in this world is the relationship that they are, overall, satisfied with. Like the rest of us, they have days where they are miserable, and days when death seems preferable to facing another day of the life they're bound to. But if we LISTEN, with ears that are not closed by our own fears and biases, we hear that, despite all of this, these people accept with grace the life that they -know- they have chosen -and- the commitment that they've made. They may be needful... they may be fragile and docile, subservient and pliant. They may not be pillars of strength in a way that society respects... but they stand by their commitments, even when life is agonizing and the next breath seems like it will be more than they can bear. They show amazing amounts of both dignity and honor, where others would have broken their word and moved on. I've been there. I recognize the mindset, and have embraced it myself, as far as I could considering my core personality.

I've been in the House that I am with now for over 10 years. In the time that I've been there, I've had a number of experiences, and have lived in a way that many people of my mien would never have chosen to face -- but I did. Was it always a bed of roses, and were there times that I despaired of ever being able to survive the position I'd put myself in... HELL YES!... and I am a dominant personality, resistant, resilient, and definitely capable of standing up for myself. Yet I allowed myself to enter into a relationship where I abdicated my right to retain control over -any- aspect of my life except what was expressly re-delegated to me for 4 long years! When I -did- attempt to reclaim my rights during those 4 years, I was driven back to my knees... by force if necessary... and I fully accept that that was the way that it had to be between myself and my Keepers, including one in particular, who taught me what it meant to yield despite every bit of pressure exerted within ones own will... did so with extreme force, but without destroying my will. He bruised it severely, and squeezed it mercilessly on occasion. If I had been any less dominant than I am, he would have crushed my drive to self-direct... and you know what, that would have been right, because if I -could- be crushed, I was not the dominant person I thought I was. At the same time, I had the opportunity to see a man who was strict but who clearly valued the servant who yielded completely without requiring him to constantly drive hir back to hir knees. Not that they weren't used as the Keepers wished, and not that life wasn't hard for them -- but I -know- I made life harder for myself, and accept my own complicity in what I faced. I'm not prop or those like her. I made regular and persistent attempts to reassert my dominion of self in my 4 years, because it is endemic in my personality for that to be the way things are. We had 'meat-life' GOREANS freak out about the way I was treated... and that's saying something. My point is that even a self-directed, intelligent, person can get into a position where life is -far- from a bed of roses, and yet still stay there, for reasons that remain their own, and which nobody has a right to question.

Heck, for that matter, I stayed in an affection-less marriage for 13 years, for reasons that had everything to do with my hope of healing a damaged man and nothing to do with my own happiness. In the end, he wasn't any better, and I'd taken all the frustration that I could. Admittedly, I had the option to walk away -- but it took me 13 years and his admission that he had no intention of doing anything to help himself to heal to do so.

Was I a victim in these situations. NO. I made a conscious choice. I accept that choice. Prop, too, is not a victim. I've known her through her words -- followed her life -- since I was zephyr winddancer. On my worst days, she was a beacon, NOT because her life was easy, but because her life was, at times, harder than anything I believed that I could yield to, and yet, even when she was in agony, she showed a sense of grace and an acceptance of her 'place' -- not as a victim, but as someone who had made a promise, bound herself to her word, and stood by that with honor, unfailingly. In many ways, I saw her and the few others like her that I came to know as -stronger- than I was. I continued to resist... to struggle to assert my will against the promise that I had made... they accepted the promises they made... bound themselves to their word, and yielded with more grace than I could even comprehend, despite both outward forces that tried to convince them that they were wrong and 'abused', and the internal circumstances of the life they'd chosen.

The more I think about this, the more I realize that the needfulness of which I speak is not a -weakness- in the right hands... in the person who accepts and embraces hir needfulness and subservience, and who is forthright about the oaths taken and claims yielded -- the living of those oaths may require -fully- as much 'strength' as the person who accepts a life handed over in fullness, without reservation.

I -also- think that entering into a relationship with an 'exit strategy' is a completely senseless state of mind. If we can't embrace the relationship with everything that we are, and give ourselves over to its success, then what the heck are we -doing- there? A person would, IMO, be better off alone than waiting around in a relationship, planning for the day it fails. That being said, I do try to make sure that the needful ones who come my way are cared for if something happens, because you know what, as the dominant factor in the relationship, I feel that that is my responsibility. Not every d-type is going to agree with that, and that's their issue. All I'm responsible for is myself and those who yield their lives to my care. In the same way, I have tried to make sure that my Darling is cared for if anything happens to me. We tied our lives together, and the "law" will not make sure that she has a safety net if something happens to me -- so I had to do that myself, and I don't regret it for a minute. If, for some reason, we part -- which is not inconceivable, since none of us can know what tomorrow will bring, so be it... but I didn't come into the relationship planning my 'way out', and aside from common-sense things set in place in the event of something untoward, I don't choose to spend whatever days we -have- worrying about what -might- happen if it ends.

I am not a 'victim', and after years of watching them, I don't think that prop and those who yield as she has, with full knowledge of what they face, are victims either. The 'victims', as I see it, are the people who are too afraid of what other people that they don't even -know- are going to think about them that they fail to be authentic about who they are and how they would best prefer to live.

Calla Firestorm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Smoochies erin.  Just because someone may be deemed 'incapable' doesn't make it so forever.  It's a fine line erin - any parent can have their child removed and yet, are those children any more capable of making the decision you are speaking of?  What I am saying is that although prop may have been placed in his care, that doesn't ever make it 'forever'.  People don't just switch off because someone has been placed in the care of another.  If prop really wanted to leave, do you not believe that with all that she has written here, that she would be ignored by regulars here should she make the decision to leave and cry out for assistance?  Do you not believe that there are people out there prepared to fight her corner?  That there is no way to prove the broken bones and if a sexual assault occured, that could not be proved?
 
Not that I have any thought that prop desires to do this, but there is never 'cannot'.
 
the.dark.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
Well and I think that a definite distinction needs to be drawn around the concept of "incompetent".

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
Well and I think that a definite distinction needs to be drawn around the concept of "incompetent".

This is one of the grayest areas of human psychology and the consensus parameters are constantly changing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
Not that I have any thought that prop desires to do this, but there is never 'cannot'.
 

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
 It is absolutely an insult to those who strive to do wiitwd with any degree of ethics or integrity to have this held up as an example of what this lifestyle is about.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

 Somehow, because she is passionate and eloquent and articulate other people end up believing that getting your nose broken by the abusive asshole that keeps you under his thumb is a beautiful thing and they wish they had such a passionate man. People get captivated by her eloquence as though it were an indicator of competence. It is absolutely an insult to those who strive to do wiitwd with any degree of ethics or integrity to have this held up as an example of what this lifestyle is about.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
I see no rationale for the argument that how prop, her Keeper, or anyone else in -any- community behaves can be an insult to my behavior or anyone else's behavior.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

It is not my own barometer, it is the barometer of a group of mental health and legal professionals who sat in a courtroom and felt strongly enough in their conclusions drawn from their examination of prop to have it declared legally that she is mentally incompetent. Therefore, she can NOT consent. The very foundation of what we do is built upon consent.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
Not that I have any thought that prop desires to do this, but there is never 'cannot'.
 

 
How many times has prop herself said that there is no exit...that she has no way out. If one truly believes that there is indeed, no way out, they are not likely to look for one. Regardless of whether or not she could leave.... regardless of whether or not I even believe her accounting of her life....what bothers me is that she continues to come here and hold up this incredibly fucked up situation as though it is a valid and viable relationship model that should be accepted, even appreciated. As if it is some testament to her devotion and slaveliness. She tells us all how horrible it all is, how abused she is and how she wouldn't have it any other way because after all, she is a slave. In one sentence she relates how her Daddy got pissed off at the clerk at the fast food drive thru so he came home and broke her nose and she was HAPPY to be the vessel that got to absorb that anger and rage......then in the next sentence she tells us all what a fine upstanding citizen he is. Somehow, because she is passionate and eloquent and articulate other people end up believing that getting your nose broken by the abusive asshole that keeps you under his thumb is a beautiful thing and they wish they had such a passionate man. People get captivated by her eloquence as though it were an indicator of competence. It is absolutely an insult to those who strive to do wiitwd with any degree of ethics or integrity to have this held up as an example of what this lifestyle is about.